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Transwomen with Beards

Started by melissa90299, August 05, 2007, 09:29:43 AM

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Rachael

Quote from: Tay on August 06, 2007, 08:43:01 PM


This person ISN'T a female. This person is a woman.  As long as she has a penis (and I'm assuming she still does) most religious sects consider her a man.  Female refers to sex.  Woman refers to gender.

Failurez...
Islam, one of the major facial hair toteing religions considered someone female when they identify as female and anounce it and lets say, go ft, they live as a woman, they are. thus no bearded ladies in iran, (tho with bhurkas, you cant tell ;))
this is all aslong as your a heterosexual female, no lezzing or its the rope for you ;)
islam giveth with one hand, and taketh away with another....

R :police:
  •  

melissa90299

Female refers to gender or sex in any community, scientific or otherwise.

This religious argument is absurd. Someone who believes in the fundamental teachings of Abraham or Mohamed yet believes that that they are innately female while born a man quite frankly belongs in a rubber room.

If the dude is a Muslim and thinks he is a woman, he should be wearing a burka.
  •  

Shana A

QuoteNow you are grasping at straws, if this person is female, there is no religious obligation to wear a beard.

If I'm grasping at straws, it's because we were asked a hypothetical question, and only just found out that it's a real situation. I don't have enough information to know whether she has a religious reason to keep the beard, or is she simply wanting to transgress gender boundaries. If religious beliefs were the reason, and she is male bodied and still living full or part time as male, that could be why she can't shave the beard. Just guessing... which is all I can do with the amount of information given in the original hypothetical question.

And yes, if she chooses to keep her beard, it's obviously going to affect whether she will be invited to participate in women only spaces or events.

Zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


  •  

Rachael

*sigh* all rhetorical init?
thier not muslim, thier not wearing a bhurka
they dont really have a beard
THEY DO NOT EXIST M'KAY?

R :police:
  •  

Shana A

QuoteThis religious argument is absurd. Someone who believes in the fundamental teachings of Abraham or Mohamed yet believes that that they are innately female while born a man quite frankly belongs in a rubber room.

I'm Jewish and m2f trans. I guess I better confirm my reservation for the rubber room  ;) ;D

Zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


  •  

Rachael

omg, scullcap thingy (sowy) and grow a beard asap!

Religion and being trans arnt even remotely un connectable things, someome can belive in allah the same way they can belive in god, i have yet to see you bash any christian trans people...
R :police:

  •  

Berliegh

One day in ASDA I saw a huge T person working in the supermarket filling the shelves, they had a almost full beard and wore a dress....weird...
  •  

Sophia

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 06, 2007, 09:53:14 PM
Female refers to gender or sex in any community, scientific or otherwise.

Proof?

Quote
This religious argument is absurd.

And yet it persists. Mostly because as absurd as you think it is (and as absurd as I think a lot of religious beliefs are) they are still prevalent parts of people's psyches. You'd be surprised at the variety of religions out there when you take into account the strange offshoots. I find it difficult to believe that no religion exists on Earth that requires a beard be grown on males.

Quote
Someone who believes in the fundamental teachings of Abraham or Mohamed yet believes that that they are innately female while born a man quite frankly belongs in a rubber room.

Proof? If their religious beliefs and GID don't cause serious mental issues when combined then a rubber room is unnecessary

Quote
If the dude is a Muslim and thinks he is a woman, he should be wearing a burka.

And yet her religious leaders could dictate otherwise if she still has her penis. Breaking from a religious tradition is difficult and to many an impossible task. If she's the head of a household, especially in a patriarchal society or a patriarchal religion, it might be necessary to continue to act as male for certain occasions. If a religious precept against shaving exists for males, it would make sense that shaving while she was in girl mode could still violate those precepts in some way.

Frankly all I see here is clinging to tradition and refusing to see that different scenarios do exist. If this was a real person you're speaking of, did you even bother to go up and ask?
  •  

taru

How about a GG with a beard? (maybe a well-done fake one)

Should she also be sent to an asylum and treated as crazy?

Having a beard and representing otherwise female sounds like gender->-bleeped-<- and there is nothing wrong with that. Just shows the problems of having two boxes and wanting everybody to conform to them.
  •  

louise000

Quote from: Berliegh on August 07, 2007, 01:53:46 AM
One day in ASDA I saw a huge T person working in the supermarket filling the shelves, they had a almost full beard and wore a dress....weird...

Customers in our local Marks & Spencer store were amazed to see a person with a full black beard wearing womens clothes browsing through items in the ladies clothing department. Had it instead been a man or even a passable transwoman, hardly anyone would have raised an eyebrow, but in this case neither the customers nor the staff knew quite how to react. It was like a scene from the Rocky Horror Show.

He or she eventually left the store without making a purchase. Maybe it was a dare, or maybe it was someone with an attention seeking disorder.
  •  

RebeccaFog

    If this person identifies as a woman and has antennae grafted to her skull, then she is still a woman. If she identifies as a man with mixed gender expression, then he is a man.
     
    I would just ask the person because some of the responses here are a bit rude.  People are people are people are people.

    Also, I have noticed that nobody has claimed I should be tossed from my Lesbian Bisexual Transgender Women's group.

    If a potato claimed it was a yam but it looked like a potato, there are 4 courses of action:


  • be rude and address it as a potato.

  • be polite and address it as a yam.

  • Be rude again and just ignore it altogether so that it is ostracized.

  • show some gumption and ask the yam/potato about how it feels and treat it accordingly

Remember, always play nice.  We can discuss this without attacking the person who is not here whether or not they are hypothetical or real.

Did I just ask that a hypothetical person be treated with the same respect that a real person would be?  Has it come to this, my friends?

  •  

melissa90299

Dictionary.com

gen·der1      /ˈdʒɛndər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[jen-der] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   Grammar.
a.   (in many languages) a set of classes that together include all nouns, membership in a particular class being shown by the form of the noun itself or by the form or choice of words that modify, replace, or otherwise refer to the noun, as, in English, the choice of he to replace the man, of she to replace the woman, of it to replace the table, of it or she to replace the ship. The number of genders in different languages varies from 2 to more than 20; often the classification correlates in part with sex or animateness. The most familiar sets of genders are of three classes (as masculine, feminine, and neuter in Latin and German) or of two (as common and neuter in Dutch, or masculine and feminine in French and Spanish).
b.   one class of such a set.
c.   such classes or sets collectively or in general.
d.   membership of a word or grammatical form, or an inflectional form showing membership, in such a class.
2.   sex: the feminine gender.
3.   Archaic. kind, sort, or class.
[Origin: 1300–50; ME < MF gendre, genre < L gener- (s. of genus) kind, sort]

—Related forms
gen·der·less, adjective
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
gen·der2      /ˈdʒɛndər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[jen-der] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), verb (used without object)
1.   Archaic. to engender.
2.   Obsolete. to breed.
[Origin: 1300–50; ME gendren, genderen < MF gendrer < L generāre to beget, deriv. of genus gender1, genus1]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
gen·der       (jěn'dər)  Pronunciation Key
n. 

   1. Grammar
         1. A grammatical category used in the classification of nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and, in some languages, verbs that may be arbitrary or based on characteristics such as sex or animacy and that determines agreement with or selection of modifiers, referents, or grammatical forms.
         2. One category of such a set.
         3. The classification of a word or grammatical form in such a category.
         4. The distinguishing form or forms used.
         5. The condition of being female or male; sex.
         6. Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender.
   2. Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.
   3.
         1. The condition of being female or male; sex.
         2. Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender.


tr.v.   gen·dered, gen·der·ing, gen·ders
To engender.


[Middle English gendre, from Old French, kind, gender, from Latin genus, gener-; see genə- in Indo-European roots.]

gen'der·less adj.

    Usage Note: Traditionally, gender has been used primarily to refer to the grammatical categories of "masculine," "feminine," and "neuter," but in recent years the word has become well established in its use to refer to sex-based categories, as in phrases such as gender gap and the politics of gender. This usage is supported by the practice of many anthropologists, who reserve sex for reference to biological categories, while using gender to refer to social or cultural categories. According to this rule, one would say The effectiveness of the medication appears to depend on the sex (not gender) of the patient, but In peasant societies, gender (not sex) roles are likely to be more clearly defined. This distinction is useful in principle, but it is by no means widely observed, and considerable variation in usage occurs at all levels.


(Download Now or Buy the Book)
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source
gender
c.1300, from O.Fr. gendre, from stem of L. genus (gen. generis) "kind, sort, gender," also "sex" (see genus); used to translate from Gk. Aristotle's grammatical term genos. As sex took on erotic qualities in 20c., gender came to be used for "sex of a human being," often in feminist writing with reference to social attributes as much as biological qualities; this sense first attested 1963. Gender-bender is first attested 1980, with reference to pop star David Bowie.

Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper
WordNet - Cite This Source
gender

noun
1.    a grammatical category in inflected languages governing the agreement between nouns and pronouns and adjectives; in some languages it is quite arbitrary but in Indo-European languages it is usually based on sex or animateness
2.    the properties that distinguish organisms on the basis of their reproductive roles; "she didn't want to know the sex of the foetus" [syn: sex]

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.
Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version) - Cite This Source
gender [ˈdʒendə] noun
any of a number of classes into which nouns and pronouns can be divided (eg masculine, feminine, neuter)



Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version), © 2000-2006 K Dictionaries Ltd.
American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition - Cite This Source
gender

A grammatical category indicating the sex, or lack of sex, of nouns and pronouns. The three genders are masculine, feminine, and neuter. He is a masculine pronoun; she is a feminine pronoun; it is a neuter pronoun. Nouns are classified by gender according to the gender of the pronoun that can substitute for them. In English, gender is directly indicated only by pronouns.

[Chapter:] Conventions of Written English


The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
American Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary - Cite This Source

gen·der (jndr)
n.

   1. The sex of an individual, male or female, based on reproductive anatomy.
   2. Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.

The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary
Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary - Cite This Source

Main Entry: gen·der
Pronunciation: 'jen-d&r
Function: noun
1 : SEX 1
2 : the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

===========================================================================

So that canard has been put to rest. I never thought I would have to prove on a TG forum that female refers to gender as well as sex. As well, the idea of a religious fundamentalist who clings to archaic and bizarre (in my view) religious beliefs would OTOH adopt the beliefs of new age genderqueers is preposterous. Sorry, someone like that is really confused and needs intense therapy. I doubt that in the real world anyone ike that exists even with six billion people on this planet.

Posted on: August 07, 2007, 09:51:33 AM
QuoteI find it difficult to believe that no religion exists on Earth that requires a beard be grown on males.

Is this a typo? Certainly, it must be.


Posted on: August 07, 2007, 09:59:13 AM
Now, I am expected to believe that someone who clings to archaic beliefs like this on one hand...

QuoteIn Leviticus 19:27-28 we are commanded:

"(27) You shall not round the edge of your head, nor shall you destroy the edge of your beard. (28) And you shall not make a cutting for the dead in your flesh, nor shall you make a written tattoo upon you; I am YHWH."

In these two verses we are forbidden to make four types of "cuttings":

1) Cutting the head or hair
2) Cutting the face or beard
3) Cutting the flesh
4) Inscribing writing on the flesh

What precisely is forbidden by these four commandments? Are we required to grow long Elvis-style side locks? Or Rabbanite-style "pe'os"? To understand these four commandments we must consider the meaning of the words in their immediate context as well as the broader context of the entire Tanach and the ancient world in which the Torah was given.

Let us begin with the first commandment in the series, rounding the side of one's head. To round the side of the head does not mean to cut the head itself but rather to cut the hair on the head. Specifically we are forbidden from rounding the "Pe'ah" of the head. Pe'ah is often translated as corner or side-lock, but it actually has the meaning of "side" or "edge". This is always the meaning of the word Pe'ah in hundreds of passages throughout the Tanach such as "and for the second side of the tabernacle, on the north side (Pe'ah), twenty boards." (Ex 26:20) and again" And the west side (Pe'ah) shall be the Great Sea, from the border as far as over against the entrance of Hamath. This is the west side (Pe'ah)." (Ezek 47:20).

To "round the edge of your head" means to cut off the hair around the sides of the head. Many exegetes associate this with the pagan "bowl-cut". A bowl-cut was an ancient hair-cut with pagan significance that was created by placing a round bowl on the head and cutting all the exposed hair.

However, when the prohibition to cut one's hair is repeated in Dt 14:1-2 we read: "...you shall not cut yourselves nor shall you place baldness between your eyes, for the dead." Since most people do not have any significant hair "between the eyes" this phrase is usually understood as meaning the hair on the front of the head above the eyes. Bearing this in mind, we learn two things from Dt 14. Firstly, we learn that the prohibition is not necessarily a bowl-cut, but making any baldness around the edges of the head. Secondly, we see that the prohibition is specifically in the context of mourning. That is, one is prohibited to make baldness in the head as an act of mourning "for the dead". In ancient times, when someone died the surviving relatives were so distraught that they cut their skin until they bled and shaved bald spots on their head.

While cutting one's hair may sound like a strange act of mourning to the modern reader, this was a common practice in the ancient world. In fact, the Torah even permits non-Israelites to perform this despised mourning practice in certain contexts. Thus we read regarding the captive Gentile woman: "and she shall shave her head... and she shall cry over her mother and her father for a month of days" (Deuteronomy 21:12-14). As an act of mercy, the Torah allows the heathen women to shave her head while she mourns her recently killed father and mother (cf. Dt 20:13-14).

That making bald spots on the head was a mourning practice is also mentioned by the prophets. Thus we read "And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning for an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day." (Amos 8:10) Similarly, we read: "Make yourself bald, and shear yourself for the children of thy delight; enlarge your baldness as the vulture; for they are gone into captivity from thee." (Micah 1:16). These are only two of many verses that relate to the fact that in ancient times making bald spots on the head was an act of mourning along with lamentation, rending of clothes and donning of sackcloth. Thus when we are forbidden in Lev 19 and Dt 14 to "round the side of your head" and "place baldness between your eyes... for the dead" the meaning is that we may not shave our head or any part thereof as an act of mourning or sadness. There is no implication in the commandment in Lev 19 that we must grow side locks or pony tails. The only thing prohibited in Lev 19:27a is to shave the side of the head as an act of mourning. Were one to shave their head for stylistic reasons their would be no prohibition whatsoever.

We have seen thus far that the Israelite is forbidden to make cuts in his flesh and shave parts of his head as acts of mourning "for the dead". In Lev 21 we read of a similar prohibition that specifically applies to the Kohanim (descendants of Aaron). In Lev 21 the Kohanim are forbidden from becoming ritually impure from the dead with the exception of their immediate relatives. After listing the relatives that the Kohen may become impure from, we read:

"(4) A man shall not become impurified by his people to defile him. (5) They shall not make bald a baldness in their head nor shall they shave the edge of their beard and in their flesh they shall not cut a cut." (Lev 21:4-5)

The context of the passage is explicitly defiling oneself for the dead. In this case the Kohanim are forbidden from various mourning practices. Not only are they forbidden from coming in contact with the dead bodies of their deceased friends (vv.1ff.) but they are also forbidden from defiling themselves by making bald spots on their heads, by shaving their beards, and by cutting their skin. We see here that three of the prohibitions found in Lev 19 and Dt 14 are repeated in Lev 21. In all three passages both the implicit and explicit contexts are that of mourning practices. Every ancient person knew that one cut one's skin or shaved one's head as an act of mourning and it was these acts of mourning that are being prohibited in Lev 19. While the mourning connotation of cutting flesh and shaving may not be obvious to the modern reader, we have seen that the Torah itself as well as the later prophets take it as a given that cutting one's flesh and shaving one's head are characteristic acts of mourning along with crying and wearing sackcloth.

It is worth noting that the Nazir makes a vow not to shave his head (Nu 6:5). At the end of the period of abstention, the Nazir shaves his entire head, as we read: "And the Nazirite shall shave his consecrated head at the door of the tent of meeting, and shall take the hair of his consecrated head, and put it on the fire which is under the sacrifice of peace-offerings." The reason the Nazir is permitted to shave his entire head is because he is not doing it as an act of mourning. Similarly, we read in 2Sam 14:26 that Absalom, the son of King David, used to grow his hair long and then shave his head every year. Again, this was not an act of mourning and therefore it was permissible to shave the head.

Given that destroying/ shaving the beard is mentioned in the context of forbidden mourning rites in both Lev 19 and Lev 21, we must ask whether shaving the beard was also a forbidden mourning rite? In other words, is the prohibition to destroy/ shave the beard a general prohibition for all occasions or is it exclusively prohibited as an acts of mourning or sadness.

Perhaps the first clue regarding shaving one's beard is the ritual purification of the Metsora or "leper". We read in Lev 14:9: "And it shall be on the seventh day, that he shall shave all his hair off his head and his beard and his eyebrows, even all his hair he shall shave off; and he shall wash his clothes, and he shall bathe his flesh in water, and he shall be clean." We see that in certain contexts a person is required to shave his beard and this is even an act of purification. Similarly, we read about the consecration of the Levites: "And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: sprinkle the water of purification upon them, and let them cause a razor to pass over all their flesh, and let them wash their clothes, and cleanse themselves." (Nu 8:7). Again we see that shaving the beard and indeed all the hair is not only permissible but can be an act of purification. In contrast, the prohibition of Lev 19 is to shave the head or beard as an act of mourning!

That shaving the beard was an act of mourning in ancient times is clear from many biblical passages. For example, in the Book of Jeremiah we read about a group of pilgrims mourning the destruction of the Temple: "There came certain men from Shechem, from Shiloh, and from Samaria, eighty men, having their beards shaven and their clothes rent, and having cut themselves, with meal-offerings and frankincense in their hand to bring them to the house of YHWH." (Jeremiah 41:5). We see that these pilgrims were mourning and therefore tore their clothes, cut their skin, and shaved their beards. Clearly then shaving the beard was also an act of mourning along with tearing the clothes and cutting the skin.

The fact that shaving was an act of mourning may shed light on a rather obscure passage that till now has defied explanation. In 2Sam 9:1-4 we read that David sent emissaries to Hanun king of Amon to comfort him over the death of his father. For some reason Hanun became convinced that David's emissaries had not come to comfort him but to spy out the land. In a strange act of retribution he decided to cut off half their beards and send them humiliated back to Israel. Thus we read:

"(2) ...And David's servants came into the land of the children of Amon. (3) But the princes of the children of Amon said unto Hanun their lord: 'Do you think that David does honour your father, that he hath sent comforters to you? has not David sent his servants to thee to search the city, and to spy it out, and to overthrow it?' (4) So Hanun took David's servants, and shaved off the one half of their beards, and cut off their garments in the middle, even to their buttocks, and sent them away."

Up till now it always seemed strange that Hanun and his advisors would suspect David's emissaries of being spies without any seeming justification. Even stranger was his reaction to discovering spies be that he cut off their beards. Bearing in mind that ancient peoples shaved off their beards as an act of mourning "for the dead", it becomes clear why Hanun's advisors doubted that David's comforters had come to pay condolences. Presumably Hanun and his cronies sat in the royal court with torn clothes, cut skin, and shaven beards. When David's men arrived with full beards Hanun's advisors assumed they were not coming to mourn the dead king but to spy out the land. For were they really coming to mourn the king they would have shaven their beards. To teach them respect of the dead and humiliate them at the same time, Hanun ordered that half their beards be cut off!

In summation, Lev 19:27-28, Lev 21:4-5, Dt 14:1-2 prohibit 4 different acts of mourning. These are:

1) Making a bald spot on the head as an act of mourning
2) Shaving the beard as an act of mourning
3) Cutting the skin as an act of mourning
4) Writing on the skin as an act of mourning

Interestingly, the making of tattoos as an act of mourning is the most elusive in the list. It is only mentioned once in Lev 19:28 and then never alluded to again in the Tanach. Reference is made to writing on the flesh as an act of dedication to YHWH (Isa 44:5), but never as an act of mourning. Yet the practice of inscribing the name of the dead loved one in a tattoo still exists to this very day. Recently this practice has come to the attention of the public when it was reported that New York firemen and policemen were inscribing tattoos on their flesh in memory of their deceased comrades.

...would, on the other hand, believe that someone presenting as a man to the point of wearing a beard and presenting as a man outwardly in virtually every way, would demand that she be accepted and referred to as a woman.
  •  

amberctm

First of all if you don't agree with what that person is doing then don't associate with them. But keep in mind your own transition woes. I.E. getting clocked, not looking so great one day... You have no idea what that person may be dealing with, but you do know the crap they are putting up with.

Just a short story.

I go to the VA for all of my med stuff. There was this combat vet who was trans but presented a mixed gender roll due to reoccuring PTSD, something you cannot fathom unless you have been in a combat situation. so this person was trying to balance these two completely different lives, much like we do or have done, but with the added anxiety, combat stress, flashbacks, and more.

SO don't judge, it;s not fair, and I'm sure you all have had your days.

~Mischa
  •  

Sarah Louise

I Second that statement.



Sarah L.
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
  •  

melissa90299

Quote from: Mischa on August 07, 2007, 10:21:39 AM
First of all if you don't agree with what that person is doing then don't associate with them. But keep in mind your own transition woes. I.E. getting clocked, not looking so great one day... You have no idea what that person may be dealing with, but you do know the crap they are putting up with.

Just a short story.

I go to the VA for all of my med stuff. There was this combat vet who was trans but presented a mixed gender roll due to reoccuring PTSD, something you cannot fathom unless you have been in a combat situation. so this person was trying to balance these two completely different lives, much like we do or have done, but with the added anxiety, combat stress, flashbacks, and more.

SO don't judge, it;s not fair, and I'm sure you all have had your days.

~Mischa


Who is judging?
  •  

amberctm

Quote from: Laura Elizabeth Jones on August 05, 2007, 09:48:55 AM
Honestly, I would be offended. I am all for people doing their own thing, but for someone to have a fricking beard and moustach  and claim to be a woman is absolutely ridiculous. You shave that stuff off or you have hair removal done, and that is it.

Quote from: louise000 on August 05, 2007, 10:25:38 AM
Ugh!!! >:(

Quote from: Jonni Smith on August 05, 2007, 11:06:46 AM
I'd say hell no. Make an effort! If your are gonna talk the talk you need to walk the walk!


Quote from: melissa90299 on August 07, 2007, 10:27:52 AM
Who is judging?


That's what it sounded like to me....no pun's intended.
~M
  •  

RebeccaFog

Quote from: Ashley Michelle on August 07, 2007, 10:38:05 AM
Quote from: Rebis on August 07, 2007, 08:33:27 AM

    If a potato claimed it was a yam but it looked like a potato, there are 4 courses of action:


  • be rude and address it as a potato.

  • be polite and address it as a yam.

  • Be rude again and just ignore it altogether so that it is ostracized.

  • show some gumption and ask the yam/potato about how it feels and treat it accordingly



if that were me, i'd just answer "i yam what i yam"   ;D

(sound of rimshot)

Pleeeaase button up your pants.  your driving me crazy  :o
  •  

melissa90299

Since your post followed mine, I presumed you were accusing me of judging.

I am not  judging anyone, I do question the validity of the fictitious person who would cling without question to archaic, barbaric and outmoded laws while embracing new age concepts of gender-bending. It defies logic.
  •  

RebeccaFog

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 07, 2007, 11:39:38 AM
Since your post followed mine, I presumed you were accusing me of judging.

I am not  judging anyone, I do question the validity of the fictitious person who would cling without question to archaic, barbaric and outmoded laws while embracing new age concepts of gender-bending. It defies logic.

   Human Beings are very complicated people. Each individual has their own belief and form of logic.  I never expect logic from anyone, particularly myself.
   Plus, we still do not even know or understand the fictitious person's fictitious motives.
  •  

melissa90299

Quote from: Rebis on August 07, 2007, 11:44:26 AM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 07, 2007, 11:39:38 AM
Since your post followed mine, I presumed you were accusing me of judging.

I am not  judging anyone, I do question the validity of the fictitious person who would cling without question to archaic, barbaric and outmoded laws while embracing new age concepts of gender-bending [concepts.] It defies logic.

   Human Beings are very complicated people. Each individual has their own belief and form of logic.  I never expect logic from anyone, particularly myself.
   Plus, we still do not even know or understand the fictitious person's fictitious motives.

You really missed my point. Sophia created a construct that, in my mind, is not credible. A person who would cling to outmoded, barbaric and archaic beliefs while OTOH embracing the most extreme new age gender-bending most likely does not exist and if a person like that does exist, he/she likely would need intense therapy. I could say that I am Mary Queen of Scots but that wouldn't make it true. Most people call that insanity.

As far as motives, you have to ask the creator of the fictitious construct i.e. Sophia.
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