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Passing arrogance

Started by Riley Skye, September 17, 2014, 12:37:39 PM

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ImagineKate


Quote from: stephaniec on September 17, 2014, 02:59:05 PM
well. if I have an eternal soul I'm either too young or too old you just can't win

Stephanie I love the new avatar!
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anjaq

i am not so sure about the age thing. I have the comparison ;) - At age 24 or 26, I did not draw a lot of attention. I think I passed fairly well - well enough to even be in a radical feminists group that had some transphobe history. Now I am almost 40 and I was asked several times in the past 2 years, if I was trans or "a guy". This annoyed me ehough to now work on getting information on voice and facial surgeries.
Maybe it was not age but just the decades it was happening in. 1990ies versus 2010's - but i think for the younger ones it is similar as to middle aged women - there are plenty of other women out there that are far from perfect as well.

But I so would leave a support group in which I was told I have to do this or that or have to pass better or be misgendered by them. Awful...

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Agent_J

Quote from: Jill F on September 17, 2014, 03:51:23 PM
My cis wife almost never wears skirts or dresses.

Same here. My also cis wife rides motorcycles and works in IT, too, which have been other "not woman enough" criticisms from other trans people.
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Hideyoshi

Some people find support in putting others beneath them. Bullies with poor self confidence.
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Rachelicious

Quote from: LizMarie on September 17, 2014, 03:23:34 PM
But a middle aged to late middle aged transwoman has tons more leeway than younger transwomen, who are being directly compared to fresh young vixens at the top of their biological game.

This. It's difficult to really weigh the impact of having such a high standard to measure up to unless that's where you actually are. What may be passable for an older woman may lead to misgendering for someone younger.
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Jenna Marie

It's one reason why I don't like the term "passing" at all, because it seems so often to go hand in hand with a bunch of assumptions - it's the same as "beautiful," it's the goal everyone should want [and I've run into those same people who assume their goals = everyone's], it's conforming with extremely stereotypical gender roles, etc.

LizMarie, you're so right; I've sometimes been grateful that I'm not being judged by the standards of a 22-year-old cis girl. I may not like my looks much, but I blend in just fine with cis women my age, which is *my* goal. (Because I'm shy and HATE standing out, not b/c I'm obsessed with being perceived as "not trans" per se.) I *wish* I looked like the college girls I see around me... but I don't wish other people judged me the way they do those girls, if that makes sense. My personal hope was to be able to go out in jeans and a T-shirt and my old combat boots and no makeup, and blend in with the crowd of women. So long as that's possible, I'm content.
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stephaniec

Quote from: ImagineKate on September 17, 2014, 03:56:14 PM
Stephanie I love the new avatar!
thanks, I look a little plump though
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ImagineKate

Quote from: stephaniec on September 17, 2014, 07:58:26 PM
thanks, I look a little plump though

That's OK, you look like your smiling. :)
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missy1992

"Passing arrogance"
yep its a problem. Unfortunately a problem I have.
I hate to admit it but I personally feel very self conscious when I am with other transpeople, especially those who do not "pass." It makes me feel "guilty by association."
Now downright bullying people or openly expression your negative views to those who are already in a fragile state of mine? I am certainly not that vile and find it sad that others, especially those of the same background, can reach such lows.

If there is one thing I have noticed in my 20 odd years in this world its that people who bully others have severe problems of their own.
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Kimberley Beauregard

Quote from: Riley Skye on September 17, 2014, 12:53:51 PM
I do think we have to be realistic about our transitions. And though someone may not pass well they deserve to be and can very well find happiness. I believe it is the transphobia that so many of us held comes out when we are transitioning.

This is pretty much my view.
- Kim
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Alice Rogers

It's one thing to be realistic about oneself it is another to voice your perceptions about another if they are negative.

Personally I think the language and behavior of this teenager are utterly inexcusable if she were my daughter I would be having a long talk with her.

When I began the long road to looking and feeling female I realised something I didn't like about myself, because I wanted so much to be perceived a certain way by those around me I became acutely aware of how I was judging others as I passed them or saw them.

I mentally kick myself now if I so much as raise an eyebrow at ANY lifestyle/appearance choices people make, it doesn't matter what it is I refuse to treat anyone differently, either to their face or in the privacy of my own mind.

I will always treat any kind of guy (including any stage of FtM who I consider to be guys anyway) as a guy.

I will always treat any kind of teenager with respect and as an adult, mainly because they respond so well to it.

I think Master Bill S. Preston Esquire and Mister Ted Theodore Logan, said it best.

'Be excellent to each other'
"I would rather be ashes than dust!
I would rather that my spark should burn out in a brilliant blaze than it should be stifled by dry-rot.
I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.
The function of man is to live, not to exist.
I shall not waste my days trying to prolong them.
I shall use my time." Jack London
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LizMarie

Quote from: stephaniec on September 17, 2014, 03:32:06 PM
so, where are you?

Stephanie, I am 57 years old, though I've been told I look a bit younger than that. But regardless, I'm going to get seen as a middle aged or late middle aged woman. And I seem to be doing ok.
The meaning of life is to find your gift. The purpose of life is to give it away.



~ Cara Elizabeth
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anjaq

Quote from: missy1992 on September 17, 2014, 09:09:57 PM
"Passing arrogance"
yep its a problem. Unfortunately a problem I have.
I hate to admit it but I personally feel very self conscious when I am with other transpeople, especially those who do not "pass." It makes me feel "guilty by association."
Yes, I have to admit to that too. I feel that I get stared at and analyzed a lot more often when I do that and I dont like it. But I know it is not nice to feel that way, but there it is. I tend to avoid being around trans people then as a result.

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ImagineKate

I have noticed this, but I really haven't bothered too much as I am glad to see people happy. I don't like to see people put down others though.

I'll also say that there seems to be a lot of emphasis in the trans community on young transitioners. While this is helpful in that they can benefit the most, I feel that a lot of older transitioners need the help more because they (we) have a lot more challenges to overcome since male puberty has severely damaged us already.
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ImagineKate

POSSIBLE TRIGGER WARNING



There's also something really bizarre that I noticed with one trans friend (who really isn't a friend anymore).

When she identified as he, he would call out trans women all the time, out them and mock them. (Apologies in advance for the pronouns but I feel it puts it in context, because he did not identify as she in public yet.) This was on some other online forums I participate in, as well as conversations we've had. He would even mockingly call one of them "a boy named Sue." There was another transwoman who joined up the forum and he immediately got on her case, even going so far as to stalk her to find out her past... when he found out her past, he immediately threw it in her face and started going ballistic.

Then one day she came out to all of us as being trans. It was a shock but I was supportive and happy for her. I also thought to myself that maybe she was trying to live in denial and do it by bringing down others. Yeah, she can be twisted and sick like that. But I was happy for her that she could find herself, despite being the nasty person she is. Then I just got fed up because she kept attacking me and I just basically started ignoring her.

Human nature is to try to step on people and make yourself appear to be better than them. It's a sad part of human nature but it is what it is.

That said, I try to surround myself with people who don't bring me down.
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Paige

Quote from: Jill F on September 17, 2014, 02:49:59 PM
Why is it that youth seems to be entirely wasted upon the young?   Perspective...

In my experience there are jerks at every age.  I'm 52 and I know a lot of very good people my age but I also know quite a few people who are just mean,nasty, egotistical narcissists.

Take care,
Paige :)
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Squircle

I think I've certainly been guilty of internally judging the looks of other trans women, but those are my thoughts, they are often human nature, an instant reaction rather than logical evaluation, and I would never ever air those thoughts. Support groups especially should be a safe place where looks are off the table as far as discussion goes. Same goes for here; outside the threads asking for critique (which are actually always honest but fair and constructive) then we should be supporting each other.

Now for me, personally, passing does matter, to me. I don't have the confidence to do the whole 'screw society and it's outdated mindsets' thing (although I applaud those that do), I just want to blend in and live my life. Whether someone else passes or not doesn't change how much respect or tolerance I show them; if someone presents as a woman, I'll treat them as such. But it would, I'm ashamed to say, affect the chances of me hanging out with that person. I don't really mean people who nearly pass but just don't quite, because I've met some trans women who don't 100% pass but just look great. I mean some of the older transitioners who dress inappropriately and look and sound a long way from female. Like I said, I'll still treat them with respect, but I have found myself turning down an invitation to ride the night bus through the city with such a lady, simply because I didn't want to be in a position where I could become a target. It is a reflection of my own insecurity and it's really not something I'm proud of, but its taken me a long time to get to being able to have any confidence in public so perhaps I still have some personal growth to come.

There's another point that's been made on this thread that I do have strong feelings about, and that's the 'you're not feminine enough' argument. I wear jeans 98% of the time, usually just with trainers. I ride a motorcycle, and I like football (soccer) and violent video games. I get really annoyed when other trans women feel that they can pass judgement on this and try to tell me that I should be smiling all the time, or gliding gracefully into rooms. It's an outdated and frankly strange version of womanhood. And some trans women do come across as strange pastiches of what they think a woman should be. I'll never say anything to them, I'll even smile politely when they do suggest I wear heels more (or, as one support group member actually said to me once, that I should hold back on expressing strong opinions in public) but it really p***es me off. I am me, and I started this process so I could live a life true to myself, not to fit in with someone else's expectations of who I should be or how I should act or dress.
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amber4400

Usually when I work with teenagers it requires a lot of selective hearing.  Understand they are a year or two removed from being children, they'll be quite different people in college and drastically different as adults.
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Paige

Quote from: Squircle on September 18, 2014, 02:52:31 PM
There's another point that's been made on this thread that I do have strong feelings about, and that's the 'you're not feminine enough' argument. I wear jeans 98% of the time, usually just with trainers. I ride a motorcycle, and I like football (soccer) and violent video games. I get really annoyed when other trans women feel that they can pass judgement on this and try to tell me that I should be smiling all the time, or gliding gracefully into rooms. It's an outdated and frankly strange version of womanhood. And some trans women do come across as strange pastiches of what they think a woman should be. I'll never say anything to them, I'll even smile politely when they do suggest I wear heels more (or, as one support group member actually said to me once, that I should hold back on expressing strong opinions in public) but it really p***es me off. I am me, and I started this process so I could live a life true to myself, not to fit in with someone else's expectations of who I should be or how I should act or dress.

I really love this point Squircle.  The days are long gone where being trans is defined by you acting and dressing a certain way.  As you said, it's about being yourself in whatever flavour you choose.

Cheers,
Paige :)

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Jess42

Quote from: Riley Skye on September 17, 2014, 12:37:39 PM
So a few days ago on the "transgender support" page on facebook a young trans girl, guessing a teenager, came in and started ranting about how ugly and manlike trans women on the page are. It astounded me how much transphobia this girl has towards her own community. It's an online support group where we are trying to find support and some happiness in our lives. I find that there are some people obsessed with passing, whole sites that tell us passing and going stealth is the key to happiness in our lives. It's frustrating to see such views that some hold. What is most important is that we are happy with ourselves inside and out, it just hurts to see that some people have such views about their own community.

Really? A young transgirl on facebook ranting about how ugly and manlike trans women? Nothing about passable? Or un passable? Sorry Riley. But please don't feed the trolls. Anybody or anyone can be anything on the internet. I could be a 300 pound gorilla that learned how to type sitting in my mamma's basement with a Cheetos fingerprinted T shirt and sitting in my whitey tighties just to PO everyone here at susans off. :-\

But big ol' bears, don't take offense. I love bears BTW. God... Never mind. I won't even go there but the contrast between smooth skin and hairy. :embarrassed:

The truth is I am a MTF non binary but becoming more binary MTF sitting in cutoff shorts and tank top drinking a little Port wine, listening to Black Sabbath's 13 album trying to make you see that I can be who I wanna' be on the internet. The last part is true though but seriously I am Cindy Crawford just making fun of everyone here that is transgendered. I don't think she would but see how easy it is to be who you wanna' be? But seriously I am Cindy Crawford listening to Black Sabbath's 13, I wish. :P

But seriously Riley. This whole post was leading to a point and that point is never let anyone bring you down or focus our mind off the prize. that Prize is up to you. If I was to walk into a club, male or female, I would send a drink you way. Whether I was male of female at the time. Don't let other people bring you down. There are way too many idiots on the internet.
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