Non Binary and Binary members - lateral violence and working together

[Cindy]

There have been a number of posts recently from people who identify as as non-binary. Some of the reply posts have been quite odd. They have been non-accepting, why?

We are a group that suffers intense dysphoria, yet some of us seem unable to accept that people are different to you and your journey.

Our journeys are personal.

No journey is better than another persons. No journey is invalidating. No journey is better or worse.

ToS #10 is clear, everyone is welcome, no one is to be denied.

We fight daily to be accepted in society, and we still fight each other?

Why?

[Ms Grace]

Why?

Some can't see the forest for the trees.

[mrs izzy]

It's been a issue as long as I been around. Lots of inner fights with each other over jealousy.

So why is a great question!

[suzifrommd]

We fight daily to be accepted in society, and we still fight each other?

Why?

I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that so many of us have had our identities denied throughout some/most/all of our lives. So we're really, really sensitive when someone comes to us with questions like "you're not like us so why do you also want recognition/HRT/Transition/surgery?" They sound invalidating.

I also think that some binary folk might find non-binary folk threatening. Many binary trans folk have had to fight for the opportunity to live as their identified gender. It has been necessary for many of them repeatedly to point out that they ARE members of their identified gender and therefore NEED to have medical treatment and an authentic life free of harassment. Now, along come non-binary folk who testify that it's possible to be sort of in-between and maybe there is a primal fear that binary transfolk will hear some version of "why can't you just live in between like those non-binary folk."

[helen2010]

I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that so many of us have had our identities denied throughout some/most/all of our lives. So we're really, really sensitive when someone comes to us with questions like "you're not like us so why do you also want recognition/HRT/Transition/surgery?" They sound invalidating.

I also think that some binary folk might find non-binary folk threatening. Many binary trans folk have had to fight for the opportunity to live as their identified gender. It has been necessary for many of them repeatedly to point out that they ARE members of their identified gender and therefore NEED to have medical treatment and an authentic life free of harassment. Now, along come non-binary folk who testify that it's possible to be sort of in-between and maybe there is a primal fear that binary transfolk will hear some version of "why can't you just live in between like those non-binary folk."

Suzi

I think that you have identified a number of potential reasons for the tension which appears to arise from time to time.  The NB and the binary trans experience are quite different.  While both types of folk have a shared narrative in that they have struggled to understand, accept and express their identity, their identities are also quite different.

A binary member sees a binary transition as the desired end state and in many ways, as their nirvana.  A non binary member seeks to recognise and express an identity which, in many ways varies by each individual and may or may not require surgical or medical assistance.  This may, at first pass, appear to a binary member as similar to the transition phase or androgynous part of their journey.  They may find that this narrative or experience causes them to regard even self identified non binaries as in denial, resisting an inevitable transition, or perhaps in an unsustainable position.  It appears hard for a binary to accept that for a non binary this intermediate state (using the gender spectrum paradigm) is their desired state, they aspire to a mix of so called gender qualities, attributes, cues etc and in most cases, will work with their endos to achieve the target point of equilibrium. 

For a non binary to be questioned, disbelieved, ridiculed or harassed is extremely unsettling, invalidating and triggering.  Conversely as you say, a binary may find the reality of, and happiness of non binaries as enormously confronting when having transitioned they then find themselves tending towards a non binary identity and presentation.  Finding that they both may now occupy a similar identity space but where one person has avoided career, social and partner fallout or trauma by moving eg MTNB rather than MTFTNB  may be quite unsettling or indeed confronting.

At the end of the day, folk may or may not find or give offence wittingly or unwittingly.  I think that both binary and non binary folk will benefit if we both assume good intent rather than bad intent.  Respect is very important and, as with every other family or community, we need to look after each other, call out bad behavior, praise good behavior and be considerate and forgiving of ourselves and of others.

Hope the above makes sense and does not cause offence, as this is certainly not my intention.  I respect and love so many folk on Susans and wish everyone the very best on their respective journeys

Safe travels

Aisla

[Jenna Marie]

Thank you for this! I agree 100% that we can't afford to be rejecting and insulting people in the same way we are so often rejected and insulted by cis people...

(My wife is non-binary and bisexual, and the pushback she gets over both issues have made her very wary of both the trans and gay/lesbian communities...)

[Jill F]

I am one to believe that we are all in the same boat together and that in order to achieve acceptance in society, we all need to be on the same page.   I'm no scientist, but the way it was explained to me by my therapist (who has dissected trans brains for her PhD) is that gender dysphoria occurs when your brain does not completely align with your body, and there are most certainly degrees of it.  We all start with a female brain, and in most cases a XY fetus' brain will fully masculinize and an XX will not masculinize at all.  We all know that doesn't always happen.  There are XY brains that fail to masculinize almost completely and some only partially.  Sometimes XX brains almost fully masculinize, some partially.  I have oversimplified things here, but my point is that gender is a spectrum, not a binary.  Some of us can clearly check an "M" or "F" box, some neither, some both. 

I initially ID'd as non-binary/androgyne/bigender, but as I explored things after HRT (which may have even shifted me over the edge), I found that the "M" part of me wasn't really me at all.  I am female. *RAWR*

There are as many ways to be trans as there are transpeople, and what works for one of us, works for one of us.  I think we all need to remember this and respect the fact that our situations are all unique.

[Mark3]

I don't really know which posts we're talking about,
But I hope we all can be models of acceptance and encouragement for
All the various forums and groups.. I really love the trans binary forums, I envy some of the beautiful transitions taking place, and wish I could share more...

[Jessica Merriman]

I don't really know which posts we're talking about

Probably the one I was involved in Mark. It seems I have some kind of talent for making people uncomfortable and angry when I am just trying to help. I really am trying to figure it out everybody

I apologize yet again. Can we move forward now? 

[kelly_aus]

Probably the one I was involved in Mark. It seems I have some kind of talent for making people uncomfortable and angry when I am just trying to help. I really am trying to figure it out everybody

I apologize yet again. Can we move forward now? 

Jessica, stop being so hard on yourself.. I can think of others who push against the non-binary far more than you - not that you really do at all. A certain woman who's username starts with a t, is followed by a double vowel and ends in a single consonant would be far higher on my list of suspects.

[Mark3]

Thanks Jessica..
I fully understand now,
I know the details now and some of the past problems..
Yes, I remember that topic well..
It was a shame it ended so harshly..
I couldn't help thinking those comments were putting
Great emotional stress on some involved,
And because of that it appeared easy to take sides,
I admit being guilty of that..

[helen2010]

Jessica, stop being so hard on yourself.. I can think of others who push against the non-binary far more than you - not that you really do at all. A certain woman who's username starts with a t, is followed by a double vowel and ends in a single consonant would be far higher on my list of suspects.

Ditto.  Jessica you are always well intentioned.  Be well.

Aisla

[Mark3]

I think a different way to look at this is why don't we help each other out as groups to begin with?
Share questions and answers, information...
Why aren't we building bridges and tearing down the divides between groups?
True, not all of it applies to everyone, but how do you know what the next person is thinking about, what help they are looking for?
People around here change as they grow more experienced with their own paths, they change accordingly.
Does that change the way you should treat them?
We should be helping people when they feel a need to change their directions, their paths.

I like this...! This is so right..

[helen2010]

Forgive me, but do " all "  users of this forum dislike each other ? Is it really so important to them ?

Anyone who questions their " gender " is " trans " Which part of the spectrum we choose is up to us.

I do not know any " trans " people. I am happy 

I am pleased to say that there is a great deal of love, support and respect in this community.  However from time to time problems have arisen and this thread has been an attempt to understand why this occurs and how this can be best avoided and managed.  In some ways misunderstandings will always occur, but it is how we deal with this and move forward which defines us as a family.

Safe travels

Aisla

[peky]

 
It seems to me that since posting in a forum  does not convey auditory and visual cues it is hard sometimes to really get the meaning of certain posts. I am usually guided by the subject and tags.

It will help if in the tag or in the subject the OP includes the words "serious topic," to warn the reader that even thought the subjects does not seem serious to a regular reader, it is to the OP and other participants.

For example, the subject could be about "farting clowns," and that could be a serious matter of which no "funny responses" would be acceptable to the OP or the other serious followers.  Well, then my "funny post" could send the serious OP of his/her followers in "floating anger," so to speak...

Do not take yourself so serious, take a "chill pill, give me the benefit of the doubt, ignore me, send me a PM (I will profusely apologize if I have offend you...) be a little bit more tolerant.... live your smite and harsh words for the end... when else has failed

Personally I have never made a difference between the Binaries and Non-binaries... I believe there are absolutes, we all are balanced in a continuum at many different levels

Peace,

Peky

[EchelonHunt]

I feel both non-binary and binary members can learn from one another, just like human beings can learn a thing or two from one another.

Non-binary members, I feel, may need to learn that binary members only have their own life experiences to call from when giving support and advice. It should not be assumed that their experiences (such as transitioning) means your life will eventually replicate their experiences like a mirror. I feel it is rude for non-binary members who act as if binary members are urinating on their territory when attempting to empathize and maul them to pieces like a rabid dog. There is no need to resort with such hostility. If you feel your identity is threatened or invalidated by a binary member's existence, then your identity is not as strong as you previously thought. Vice-versa for binary members - if a non-binary member's existence feels threatening to you, then the problem does not lie with them, it lies within you - be it fear of difference or insecurities. 

Binary members... I feel, they have their heart in the right place, just it can be hard to keep up with the ever-fluid nature and labels of non-binary members (Perhaps a Sticky of the Non-Binary labels/definitions may be useful...? I wanna add all the Non-Binary Stickies!)... I feel more open communication from non-binary members can help to educate others more - the "forest" thread and "path of non-binary" are wonderful examples of people's experiences - not just NB! It's true that sometimes one cannot relate to another's experience unless they have been through it themselves.

I, for one, would love to make a thread about the things binary members have in common with non-binary members (and vice-versa) - I think it could be enjoyable and we can begin to learn that we aren't really so much different from each other as we think. One example I can think of is a non-binary and MTF sharing make-up tips, helping each other out by giving suggestions on fashion and maybe even going shopping together, having fun and laughing together.

I used to get upset by comments on the Non-binary forum but I don't anymore. I learnt that my mind can easily manipulate innocent conversation into triggers that upset me and I'll have basically made a big thing out of pretty much nothing. If the mind is fragile from past hurt and crippled with fear, even the most supportive comments can appear to be laced with malicious intent. A mind filled with fear will lash out at those who hurt and those who support. I have since learnt to stop my mind from doing this - how, you say? Quite easy, I detach myself from the situation and look over the posts slowly, making sure I am getting the message the person is attempting to send. I will read them over and over again until I feel I have succeeded, if not, I will most likely PM the member for more clarification to properly understand.

I have confidence in my identity of myself - I don't have to prove myself or justify myself to anyone. If people question me genuinely, I will answer them honestly and respectfully but if they refuse to give the same respect back, continuing to belittle my experiences and question my behavior because it is not "normal", I will take that as my cue to leave the thread. No nastiness, no name-calling - none of that because I know I am better than that.

We all are better than that.

*Hugs and kisses for everyone!*  

Jacey

Edit: The two posters above me, please remove yourself from the threads, only adults are allowed to post here.



(Seriously though, attacking each other on a thread that is trying to solve this very issue is quite alarming... May I suggest apologizing to each other sincerely, asking for forgiveness and moving forward...? Otherwise this community will struggle to proceed forward in achieving acceptance and building stronger bonds between one another.. all over what? Members holding past grudges against one another? That would be such a shame.)

[Blue Senpai]

I just read and refrain from posting. No one needs my opinions.

[Jess42]

Probably the one I was involved in Mark. It seems I have some kind of talent for making people uncomfortable and angry when I am just trying to help. I really am trying to figure it out everybody

I apologize yet again. Can we move forward now? 

I agree with Kelly, Please stop being so hard on yourself.

As for why Cindy. That is something I can't understand. I definitely agree with Jill in we are all in the same boat. I just hope it ain't the Titanic we're all on.

[Jessica Merriman]

You are consistently and absolutely a part of the problem and lack the intelligence to realize it.
Your words are meaningless and I find your words hollow in content.

This is exactly what divides us. The poster said if something offends to ask and see if it was a misunderstanding. Maybe you should ease your anger a little and try to help with relations between members instead of judging which is something binaries are being accused of. 

[mac1]

I don't undrstand what is meant by "binary" and "non-binary".  Please tell me.