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The Problem is. . .

Started by Foxglove, September 20, 2014, 01:52:11 PM

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Foxglove



The problem is that they believe we are men. They do everything in their power to show that. . . They go a length to show that we're just really demented freaks that are only like this because of some >-bleeped-<ed up >-bleeped-< that's happened to us. . .


Hi, Folks!

The above is a partial quote from a very perceptive post by Riley Skye on this thread:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=173697.0.

This is something I've often noticed.  Probably everybody has.  The fact that cisgender people seem incapable of realizing that we're not cisgender.  We're actually transgender.  They're simply not equipped to cop on to the fact that we're fundamentally different from them.

It's an odd sort of problem we have.  If women are campaigning for equal rights, everybody knows what a woman is.  If black people are campaigning for equal rights, everybody knows what black people are.  But when we campaign for equal rights, we're handicapped by the fact that people don't actually understand what we are.  The result is that they oppose our rights because they don't understand our needs, they don't understand the justification for our demands.

No reason to allow a transboy to go to school as a boy.  He's really a girl.  No reason why a transwoman should be granted a place in a female group.  She's really a man.

I just had a bit of a debate on another forum with a guy (gay or straight, I don't know, but in any case, cisgender) on the subject of transwomen's use of female loos, changing rooms and lockers.  Now his main argument was the fact that pre-op T-girls still have male equipment, which fact will make ciswomen uncomfortable, given the amount of sexual harassment, assaults, etc., that they're often subjected to.

I pointed out to him that the flaw in his argument was his conflating of transgender women with cisgender men.  We're not talking about the same sort of people.  The chief threat to cisgender women in this world is cisgender men, not transgender women.  And who's the main threat to transgender women in this world?  Well, it seems to me it's cisgender men.

When it comes to the loo, etc., we transwomen constantly get lectures from cisguys about the danger we pose to ciswomen, when in fact it's cisguys who are the main danger to trans and ciswomen alike.

And I also pointed out the fact that if it's really male equipment that cispeople fear, why then do transguys face so many problems when using male loos, changing rooms and locker rooms?  I've long had the impression that transguys actually have more problems in this regard than we transwomen have.  We're not really talking about a fear of male equipment here.

I think what we're really talking about is what Riley Skye is pointing out: cispeople cannot see us as transpeople.  They see us as sick, perverted versions of themselves, badly in need of "a cure".  So it's not just when we want to use the loo that they get upset.  It's when we want to do anything at all--like go to school, go to work, go to the supermarket, go to the pub, whatever.  Because whatever we're doing, it's sick and needs to be stamped out.

This is, of course, a very bleak view of the situation I'm giving here.  In reality things are often better than this.  As more and more of us get out in the world, more and more people begin to get a feel for us.  They do begin to grasp the fundamental difference between us and them.  And once they grasp that, a lot of them are OK with us because they see that we're not really a threat to anybody.  There are lots of decent people in this world.  They're the ones we're gradually winning over to our side.

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suzifrommd

Quote from: Foxglove on September 20, 2014, 01:52:11 PM
The fact that cisgender people seem incapable of realizing that we're not cisgender. 

Actually I've had many, many cisgender people respect my gender identity and treat me exactly as they would any other woman.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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Inanna

That's an interesting way of interpreting transphobia.  I think that applies (to a lesser extent) to LGB people as well.
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Foxglove

Quote from: Inanna on September 20, 2014, 02:19:51 PM
  I think that applies (to a lesser extent) to LGB people as well.

LGB people are after all cisgender.  Not long ago a girlfriend of mine and I were trying to explain transgenderism to a couple of gay guys.  Very sympathetic to our cause, they were, but they were having a hard time copping on.

As I said in my OP, copping on to TGism is something that cispeople have to do bit by bit, as they get to know us.  That is, if they do want to cop on.  Our hard-core enemies don't want to, and it is one of their standard tactics to deny that we are trans, that there even is such a thing as TGism.  According to them, we're just sick cisgender people.
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Mark3

This is such a good topic..

I agree totally with the idea that CIS people can't understand Trans equality, and just think of trans people as CIS people who are in someway sick or perverted, thus to them there is no such thing as a real transgender person who is an authentic woman, or man (MTF / FTM).. But I think more and more people are begining to understand, I truely do..
"The soul is beyond male and female as it is beyond life and death."
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Foxglove

Quote from: Mark3 on September 20, 2014, 03:04:42 PM
But I think more and more people are begining to understand, I truely do..

I'd agree with you, Mark.  For me the real question is whether you're dealing with a nice person or not.  If they're nice, they won't hassle you, bit by bit they'll come to get at least some kind of glimpse of what you are.  It's the nasty ones who make no effort whatsoever, who just want to see us as sick.

TGism is difficult for cispeople.  They have no instinctive grasp of it all.  But I myself am optimistic about trans rights.  It's not going to happen immediately.  But it will some day.
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Ms Grace

For many people (cis or trans) it's just a case of ignorance, wilful sometimes. And as many of us know, before we came to a realisation of our personal situation we often struggled through it too, I know I did.
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
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Mark3

Quote from: Ms Grace on September 20, 2014, 04:40:05 PM
For many people (cis or trans) it's just a case of ignorance, wilful sometimes. And as many of us know, before we came to a realisation of our personal situation we often struggled through it too, I know I did.

I did for sure.. Maybe not in a mean way, but ignorant.. That was a long time ago..

It seems also, that the level of peer pressure, family, church teachings, etc., and how devoted to those things a person is, dictates how easily they can form a different opinion and understand people differently than how they might have been taught..?
"The soul is beyond male and female as it is beyond life and death."
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Jaime R D

I first saw the title of this topic and thought pool, that's gotta be the problem, but nooo, apparently I was wrong, but for some reason, I link a lot of things I come across in life to The Music Man...
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Felix

A lot of people just think we are confused. Even cispeople who try to be accepting and respectful are often trying to accept and respect an identity few of us have. I don't think I'm a woman who feels like a man, I think I am a man. I've had lots of people use the right pronouns and name for me and then still infer every stereotype they've ever learned about women. They seem to be respecting me as a woman who lives like a man. Props to them for trying, but that's not an accurate assessment. And it leads to problems.
everybody's house is haunted
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helen2010

Foxglove I think that you are probably right, uninformed cis folk appear to see trans* folk as flawed.  They do not have a shared experience or indeed life experience that accommodates the possibility of trans*.  However I think that this is changing as awareness is increasing.  But there is still a long way to go before all identities are respected and accepted irrespective of the 3rd party's lens, narrative or life experience.
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Foxglove

Quote from: Felix on September 21, 2014, 01:37:32 AM
. I've had lots of people use the right pronouns and name for me and then still infer every stereotype they've ever learned about women. They seem to be respecting me as a woman who lives like a man.

I was thinking yesterday about how people's view of you can evolve as time goes on.  E.g., my landlord was talking on the phone to a guy and wanted me to talk to him instead.  So he told the guy, "I'll give you the lady here.  She's right here." He said this so naturally, with no hesitation, that it amazed me.  Amazing how far he's come in the two years since I've been out.

But as you're pointing out, it's hard to know exactly how they see us.  We can't read their minds.  (How many times I've wished I could!)

But I've also wondered how society's view of us might evolve with time--say, over a period of a few generations and assuming that during that time we gain complete acceptance and equality.  If right now they see us as something like men pretending to be women or women pretending to be men, perhaps eventually they'll come to see transmen as just another variety of men and transwomen as just another variety of women.  Or will they come to see us as a different category altogether?  Neither "pretenders" nor "real" men and women, but something else altogether--i.e., transgender.

Obviously, this is impossible to predict.
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