Aisla, In Response to Your PM, I Can't Send PMs

[fairview]

I guess I haven't posted enough to send PMs yet.  To reply to everything would make for a along post and too much time and probably end up rambling nonsense.  Please understand that this is the bible according to me.  I'm sure my opinions aren't shared by everyone and anyone that wants to debate them right or wrong go right ahead.  No problem, I'm just not going to feed fuel to that particular fire by debating why I'm right, you're wrong, because bottom line, we're both right, just not for each other.  As a former Marine officer I not only defended the right to free speech for those that agreed with me, but more importantly I defended the right to free speech for those that did not agree with me. 

I'm going to address 2 things this evening - medication and side effects.  <From your last post it sounds that you have taken or are taking high dose hrt.  (My blood chemistry is below the male T range and below the female E range, so truly andro.)  If true did you need this, did you explore other options?  How are you dealing with the physical changes eg I have had to recut my pants, wear a looser shirt with a compression vest when required.>

Every med we swallow or inject has benefits and adverse side effects.  The justification to start or continue meds is never determined by looking solely at the benefits provided but rather a measurement or weighing if the benefits outweigh the side effects.  When the side effects outpace the benefits, it doesn't take a medical degree to decide to stop a med, we will decide to stop on our own choice.  Yes I have had all the typical 'adverse'  feminization changes - significant breast development and accumulation of fat in typical female locations.  My muscle mass and metabolism has decreased.  I now know what a woman means when she says all I need to do is look at food and I gain weight.  You name it, it probably has or is going to happen to me.  I continue for one reason - the benefit of not being a bipolar sociopath, of having friends when I had none before, of the ability to cry and laugh, and not be that hot tempered, perpetually angry foul mouthed man, who, when he was younger, got his ass served to him on a platter more than once a week - is how I tolerate the side effects.  To me it is a no brainer, no decision choice.  While I am not thrilled that what is inside does not match the outside I have come to terms with that and accepted that if I didn't the only solution more than likely would have been eating a 200gr bullet.  So for me wearing a compression sports bra on a near daily basis is no biggie.  When I compare that to probably never having the opportunity to hold a future yet to be born great grand child the side effects are truly below my noise level.  They are the minutiae of my life

People are oblivious beings.  People are busy, they are to wrapped up in themselves, their problems, and  what they going to make/have for supper that night or how long they will need to stay up tonight to finish the report due tomorrow at 8:00 to notice such things  I present as male, have grown facial hair, I still have a voice that booms and I have that unique bearing and presence only a Marine acquires during basic.  My friends have noticed that I am a tad soft around the corners now these days.  Now juxtapose that to my career - I am a hair stylist and none of my clients, M/F/T have ever noticed or if they did never commented about any physical changes (side effects) other than I might look younger ( yeah, i'll take that one).  They have noticed I am happier, I smile a lot, I laugh a lot and complain a hell of a lot less.  What people will notice, I believe, are the contradictions of gender cues.  A woman, weather born or trans with 5:00 shadow will make them pull up short and question what they have observed.  But just like hair styles if the individual is comfortable, confident and unmistakeably exudes and oozes that comfort and confidence to the environment not just to people, those that notice will pass it off as not seeing what they really saw and stick their head back into the sand.  I think when people observe contradictions in gender cues and discomfort within the individual, they pursue that ruthlessly. 

I am adding this last paragraph only as a sidebar to the above.  I do not intend to insult what you may already know.  This stuff needs to be treated as caveat preemptor.  Lastly when it comes to supplementation with exogenous estrogen.  Both sexes have both sex hormones in their body, however with men estrogen serves as part of a bio-feed back regulatory loop to the testes to determine the production of testosterone.  Excess testosterone is converted to estrogen via the aromatase cycle.  An elevated level of estrogen in men is a signal to decrease T production until the liver metabolizes the E.  When metabolized, T production is resumed.  Continued and persistent elevated levels of E in men will eventually turn off T production completely.    The belief that there is a low dose E protocol that will not create the same sides as high dose transition doses is deluding themselves.  The sides will be identical, it's just going to take a longer time with slower more subtle changes that may not be as quickly noticed until the destination is arrived.   (FYI- for those that are reading this and want to go one step more with this, there is absolutely no metabolic process in Ms or Fs that converts excess E into T)

Whew!!!  That's enough for tonight.  Probably won't get back to this until Saturday.  Have to work until 9 tomorrow night.  UGH!!!

[helen2010]

fairview

many thanks for this.  I now understand why you dont find being non binary a blessing!  I can understand your current discomfort and why this is still far better than remaining where you were. The hrt does work re dysphoria and I agree if it is severe enough you have to take the good with the bad.  My situation is similar but not identical - I needed hrt, fortunately low dose has been extremely effective in addressing the dysphoria.  In addition I am more than comfortable with my gradual move towards androgyny whereas I couldn't deal with transition level dosages and this helped when I understood my non binary identity.

So much diversity in our community.  Thank you for responding.

Safe travels

Aisla 

[Taka]

I am adding this last paragraph only as a sidebar to the above.  I do not intend to insult what you may already know.  This stuff needs to be treated as caveat preemptor.  Lastly when it comes to supplementation with exogenous estrogen.  Both sexes have both sex hormones in their body, however with men estrogen serves as part of a bio-feed back regulatory loop to the testes to determine the production of testosterone.  Excess testosterone is converted to estrogen via the aromatase cycle.  An elevated level of estrogen in men is a signal to decrease T production until the liver metabolizes the E.  When metabolized, T production is resumed.  Continued and persistent elevated levels of E in men will eventually turn off T production completely.    The belief that there is a low dose E protocol that will not create the same sides as high dose transition doses is deluding themselves.  The sides will be identical, it's just going to take a longer time with slower more subtle changes that may not be as quickly noticed until the destination is arrived.   (FYI- for those that are reading this and want to go one step more with this, there is absolutely no metabolic process in Ms or Fs that converts excess E into T)

very very interesting.

when it comes to the medical side of things, there's this short article which may be of interest to you.
http://www.avitale.com/TNote15Testosterone.htm

i might end up on the opposite side of where you are. it's something i won't know until i know what testosterone will do to me.
either there are enough benefits or there aren't. maybe it will be enough to try it, maybe i find that i have to use it for the rest of my life.
would be easier to find out if the national gid clinic treated more than just stereotypical transsexual people, but i'm going to ask around until i find a gp who isn't too scared to try something new. what i'm aiming for is first of all a better personality and more stable moods. having to keep a psycho killer in check once every month is exhausting, and if i can't kill someone else, i'll want to kill myself. knowing it's just a chemical problem still doesn't make the unwanted feeling go away, but at least i've become good at pretending to be a nice person.

i don't know if i'll really want to present as anything other than female. a quirky one, but still female.
taking testosterone to become manlier does not mean i'll become a man in my case.
there will probably be unwanted side effects, but i already have those from my natural hormone levels too.


i'm just wondering about something when you say you don't like being non-binary.
would you prefer to be able to one day wake up as a woman, or to one day wake up with a brain that actually tolerates male levels of testosterone?
do you identify as non-binary, or as a male who unfortunately has to take medication that makes him look somewhat feminine?

[Ms Grace]

Yes, you need 15 posts to send PMs.

[Satinjoy]

For the OP, if it works, do it.  If it means you are more healthy, do it.  If you choose not to transition but the meds are physician driven and they work for you, do it.  If low dose works for others here and are medically determined, do it.  If high dose works, I am doing it.

As to the long term effects of hormones, it would be interesting to harvest the experience of the forum with that, those on low dose for extended periods of time.  I cannot comment, I am at full female levels.  I can't live without them.

And thank you my dear for your service.  In whatever place you are from, assuming that the grams are not pointing at Satinjoy, and I suspect they instead defended h'er.  I could never have done what you have done.

Blessings

Satinjoy

[fairview]

i'm just wondering about something when you say you don't like being non-binary.
would you prefer to be able to one day wake up as a woman, or to one day wake up with a brain that actually tolerates male levels of testosterone?
do you identify as non-binary, or as a male who unfortunately has to take medication that makes him look somewhat feminine?

If I were asked by the "power to be" what would could have been done to give me a better quality of life I would ask for nothing to be changed save not to be born with what I call my conundrum.  Weather my gender would have been male or female, just to have everything in synch.  Hindsight is always 20/20 and I would say in retrospect my quest was never about my gender presentation or feeling I was born into the wrong body, it was about mental stability, emotional happiness.  It was a desire for peace of mind.  I had visited with 2 gender therapists.  Had I continued with the first I am fairly confident at this time I would be living full time as a woman quite a quirky one for sure, LOL.  With the first therapist I felt as though I was being pushed/pulled/drawn into a journey that was not of my own making.  The therapist was extremely supportive - perhaps to much so.

In contrast the second's attitude was, 'Okay, despite what you think, this situation is not as far out on the weird meter as you think it is.'  Say what?   There are very few times I am at a loss for words and that is all I could muster as a reply.  To paraphrase a nearly 90 minute session...'who is to say what is normal for you.  We both know that your needs are outside of the majority's norm but why is that so wrong?  So often we forget that truly each person is unique and so are their needs; yours are just uniquely special.' 

I am still challenged getting my arms wrapped around non-binary gender.  Partly it is understanding and partly it is acceptance.  In my generation men were men, women were women and then there were those other ones.  Sort of a shock finding out now I'm one of the other ones.  LMAO. 

This is a day to day journey for me.  It is not mapped, there is no destination and I'm not under any deadlines.  I may wake up tomorrow morning and realize I need (not want) to be a woman.  But right now it is not tomorrow morning and I'm already awake.

If you want to know my mental state prior to using Xsex hormones find the original sound track of Bambi and find the middle of his thunderstorm experience.  That is what was and would return to my head if I were to stop taking the estrogen.  Once you hear that I think you will have an appreciation for my statement of, 'I do not enjoy being binary and would never wish it on anyone.'  If that is what being non-binary is, it was a bad place for me. 

[fairview]

Emotionally do you find yourself being pulled further from your male body and experience by your female identity and feminising body (from fat redistribution, muscle loss, skin and hair change etc) as I do, and it is an ongoing fight to resist inreasing dosage.

Interesting that you should ask this.  Absolutely not.  In fact the immense drive to be a woman has all but evaporated.   Now had you asked me that question years ago and had I the brass to give you an honest answer I would have told you, 'Yup, God might have miscounted and slipped me in the wrong exterior.  I should have been born a woman and I need to transition.   Had you asked me that same question 10 years down the road I would have replied, 'Yup but now I'm an insane MTF.'  Ask me that same question 3 years or so ago it would have been, 'Huh, what, no man what you talking about.  As a friend I gotta tell you,  you're stretching the boundaries of our friendship with a question like that.'  LOL.  Once I started x-sex hormones I was happy with the image that was being reflected back at me when I looked in the mirror.  And that is part of the conundrum I think about.  Really how can that be?  I don't get that; I don't get how I have no need to be a woman on the outside to match the internal system.  That little paradox can put my mind into an infinite loop.  What came first; the chicken or the egg.  Who the frick cares? I just wish someone could explain my riddle.  I neither feel a female nor male identity.  I simply sense my own which i guess is, 'Oh my god, I must be non-binary!!'  But how can that be............(infinite loop).......

I have built a career, community and family and don't wish to harm, lose or deny myself access to this.

In other words I think you are weighing the thoughtful question of, 'The needs of the many versus the needs of the one.'  I think that is something that only you can decide.  I can only give you this as help - Were you able to fully transition in a moment's notice would the price you and your loved ones pay for that transition be less than the value of your individual needs or more than the value of your individual needs.   Once anyone is able to answer that honestly the path to be taken and the choices to be made becomes clear.  In my own personal situation, the needs of the many, the price they would have to pay astronomically exceed the value of my individual needs so the path and the choices I need to make are crystal clear.  If nothing else, being non-binary produces many thought provoking, albeit non productive periods of intense mental activity. 

[fairview]

when it comes to the medical side of things, there's this short article which may be of interest to you.
http://www.avitale.com/TNote15Testosterone.htm

An excerpt from the paper.....

As estrogen levels decrease (women experiencing menopause), testosterone levels automatically increase to maintain homeostasis. The opposite is true, when testosterone levels in older males decrease, estrogen levels automatically increase in response.

For me the above is the weakness of this paper.  The deductive logic is flawed.

1.  Agreed, as women approach menopause they do produce less estrogen however testosterone production remains relatively constant.  It is the resulting imbalance, the upside down ratio of T to E, and the changing ratio due to the ovaries sputtering production off E that causes the symptoms of menopause. 

2.  Testosterone levels in men naturally decrease with aging HOWEVER estrogen production is not increased.  The aromatase enzyme is found predominantly in the belly fat of men.  What is quickly becoming the #1 health concern - OBESITY.  Obesity = increased belly fat = >greater levels of aromatase enzyme = more T is converted to E = stronger signal being returned to testes to decrease T production = slower metabolism = more weight gain = brings you back to increased belly fat.

In my generation, for those born during the 50s and early 60s it was common practice for expectant mother to be prescribed DES to prevent miscarriage.  I have read anecdotal papers that when a male fetus is exposed to DES more estrogen receptors are created in the brain than for male fetuses not exposed to DES.  For women, it has no effect but using deductive logic, perhaps that is why some women have more severe menopausal symptoms than others but that us pure conjecture on my part. 

For me when you tie in men with excessive estrogen receptors, gender dysphoria, testosterone and estrogen treatment and this paper, I can go with that.  Particularly when you link at the incidence of MTF and age.   It's overwhelmingly my generation but some of that may also be socioeconomic also. 

[Satinjoy]

Familiar song.  There are several Nonbinary here that are des exposed.

I like being Nonbinary, but it took a while to get here.

Hughe on the forum is one of our.experts, so.is my close friend Justpat.

Patty and I talk many times about it.  It gives girls cancer and changes boys in utero, and more than just receptors.

I was literally born Nonbinary.

It helps me and my family to know this, and probably saved my marriage.  Birth anomaly.

Many here can't pin it on des, I can for me.

Anyway hope you find joy in this journey, it is attainable.

Blessings

Satinjoy

[helen2010]

fairview

Thank you for your posts.  Your narrative is remarkably familiar and in many ways similar.to mine.  While all our paths differ it is strangely reassuring to meet another person on the strange path that we have chosen

Won't PM further questions until you reach 15 posts and can respond.  However your posts will inform and reassure many other non binaries who face a similar conundrum and this is a very good thing indeed.

Safe travels

Aisle

[VeronicaLynn]

2.  Testosterone levels in men naturally decrease with aging HOWEVER estrogen production is not increased.  The aromatase enzyme is found predominantly in the belly fat of men.  What is quickly becoming the #1 health concern - OBESITY.  Obesity = increased belly fat = >greater levels of aromatase enzyme = more T is converted to E = stronger signal being returned to testes to decrease T production = slower metabolism = more weight gain = brings you back to increased belly fat.

Interesting, so by getting fat then I naturally have partially transitioned. Here, I've been fighting myself to get thin, when losing the belly fat is going to increase T production and make my body more masculine. I think I'll order a large pizza and eat it by myself and have cake and ice cream for dessert.

[Zoidberg]

Once I started x-sex hormones I was happy with the image that was being reflected back at me when I looked in the mirror.  And that is part of the conundrum I think about.  Really how can that be?  I don't get that; I don't get how I have no need to be a woman on the outside to match the internal system.  That little paradox can put my mind into an infinite loop.  What came first; the chicken or the egg.  Who the frick cares? I just wish someone could explain my riddle.  I neither feel a female nor male identity.  I simply sense my own which i guess is, 'Oh my god, I must be non-binary!!'  But how can that be............(infinite loop).......

I'm incredibly thankful that you ended up having topost publicly because this is fairly similar to my own situation in some ways. I no longer know what my gender identity is, but I know that HRT was a lifesaver for me. Maybe I'll go off of it someday but it absolutely was the necessary choice for me at the time.
I hope this conversation will continue happening on this thread because it's really helping me gain some perspective from other people who struggle with their nonbinary-ness

[Taka]

If you want to know my mental state prior to using Xsex hormones find the original sound track of Bambi and find the middle of his thunderstorm experience.  That is what was and would return to my head if I were to stop taking the estrogen.  Once you hear that I think you will have an appreciation for my statement of, 'I do not enjoy being binary and would never wish it on anyone.'  If that is what being non-binary is, it was a bad place for me. 

that noise is something which most transgender people share, i think. it's definitely there for the transsexual people at least.
so one part of your brain is transsexual enough that it needs cross sex hormones, but that doesn't mean you're transsexual.
transsexual people also have developed an internal body map (also part of unchangeable brain structure) that is typical of the opposite sex.

being non-binary usually means to not identify fully with the opposite sex, while also not fitting properly with one's birth sex.
but the variations are extreme.
some need surgery, some need hormones. it can be one or the other or both. or it can be neither, and the problem is a love of stuff that people of one's birth sex aren't commonly expected to like and may be frowned upon.

that experienced need to be the opposite sex, which is suddenly extinguished by hrt, might be some of the same as this guy who was drifting at sea in a tiny life boat who suddenly felt a need to eat fish eyes. because of a vitamin a deficiency. maybe the brain realizes that women naturally have the hormones that it needs to function well, and that's where the need comes from. we won't know for a long time how this works, but there are mysteries to study for anyone who's interested and qualified...

[Satinjoy]

Fairview I am curious if you are conflicted with the military background and being Nonbinary... I had a tough time learning to accept it, and an abused, rigid cultural environment that was extremely anti trans or gay.  As in they would ridicule or kill.

We're you able to transcend that?

Satinjoy