confusion...

[lorax]

Hi everyone!

As you can probably tell from my lack of information on the left side of this post, I am brand-new to this site. I am just having a really tough time with my identity right now, and after hearing about this website I decided to ask a question.

So I've already been out for several years for being "gay", in a lesbian sense (my only crush ever was on a girl, but I've never experienced sexual attraction to anyone...) and I recently told my extremely supportive friend group (80% of whom are queer in some sense) that I am nonbianary. I have major chest dysphoria, and I hate my weak, flabby arms (which are weak even by biological female standards because I'm dyspraxic) and wide hips but I don't want my face to be any different and I don't really care about genitilia (having no more periods would be great, but I don't really need another thing hangin' off of me, I've got enough as it is). My perfect body for my mind would be entirely androgenous, with straight hips, no body or facial hair, no breasts, and no genitialia (I've got no use for them, anyway) kind of like a kid before puberty. I'm sorry if this is TMI.

Anyway, it's weird because I don't care much if someone calls me a girl or use female pronouns or gendered language to refer to me. I mean it feels wrong, but then again, the use of male language and "they" pronouns feel just as wrong. And my gender-neutral nickname is also just as weird as my birth name. And in fact I kind of like being the "token girl" in Tae Kwon Do or the "smart chick" who outperforms everyone in biology. It's more of a "strong female" type of thing, I guess. I'm really feminist (in the egalitarian, "equal rights for all genders" way, not the "men suck" way) and so I think that might have something to do with it. Like I want to be a good example of a girl who, if in a movie, would be an example of a "strong female lead character" or something.

But at the same time, I hate it when people (read: women) tell me "oh, yes, men are so stupid. Look at that boy over there who is doing dumb things, aren't you glad you're not a boy?" and first I'm like, "yes defy the patriarchy!" and then I'm like, "wait. Girls do dumb things too!" and then I'm like "I'm not a girl!" and this all happens in my head in about .02 seconds. And it happens every single time someone says something like this.

So right now I'm trying to figure out if I'm really trans, if I'm actually cis and do not like my body, if I'm really a transman who can't accept my identity because I don't want to contribute to the patriarchy or something, or neutrois, or genderqueer or what. And it's really getting in the way of my life. Like I spend four hours a day researching what I could possibly be experiencing (to no advail).

And I know labels don't define a person, but I am a very introspective person and I tend to think of things that don't make sense for waaaay longer than I actually should. So if I find something that fits my experience, I can start to move on with my life and grow with a clearer understanding of my emotions, which will help me make better life decisions (transition, having/adopting children, etc.)

I'm sorry this is so long, but I really need to get that off my chest (no pun intended). I was just wondering if any of you have any thoughts that might clarify things. And I know that it's really up to me, and I have to figure out my gender for myself, but I would like your opinions so that I have some concrete ideas to adhere to.

Thank you to anyone who reads this, and thank you even more for commenting. Your ideas are very much appreciated.

Wow, that sounded like a salesperson. Sorry about that. <|:P

[EchelonHunt]

Lorax,

First of all, welcome to Susan's and welcome to the Non-binary forum

It's not TMI at all. I can relate to the body you desire - I had described it once of being a child before puberty added secondary sexual characteristics. I would very much to remove the secondary sexual characteristics and achieve a sexless body (as close as possible) through surgery. I identify as agender/genderless (having no gender identity) and sometimes neutrois, desiring a sexless body and presenting as androgynous to society. I do think I have some androgyne in me (an identity consisting of a balanced harmony of feminine & masculine traits) but I have more feminine than masculine swirling within my genderless core and androgynous presentation so I feel I negate that label

I have not experienced sexual attraction to anyone either, despite trying and failing miserably. I cannot create something that I cannot feel. I identify as aromantic asexual, meaning I am incapable of forming romantic or sexual attraction to other people.

That you experience chest dysphoria most definitely does place you under the transgender umbrella as cisgender individuals do not generally experience dysphoria towards their biological genitals.

I am a very introspective person too so I can relate to that as well. You are not alone, the non-binary forum is a very helpful place in bouncing thoughts of one another and to share experiences with others.

I hope that helps, even just a little.

Kind regards,

Jacey

[Taka]

some genders don't have a proper descriptive label. mine seems to be of that sort. tjere are so many things you could call me, and all would be right to a certain degree. what annoys me are the lack of gender options on questionnaires and the odd preconceptions people have about gender.

i have had strong dysphoria related to secondary sex characteristic and the outward shape of my genitals. as well as lack of some. my own agreement with myself is to do what i can to get hrt safely, and only after that see if i still want to reshape parts of my body.

non-binary is a good place to put yourself if you can't say without doubt that you're cis, but also are uncertain about whether that whole binary full transition is something for you. non-binary people can also seek treatment, even though they don't have any right to treatment in some countries.

reasing some of echeleon's posts here would probably be a good idea for you, their experience seems closest to yours out of the members we have now. echeleon also has some interesting posts about treatment and the difficulties regarding that.

as you already know, none of us can tell you what you are. but we can offer options and narratives that you may feel like you identify more or less with. i have personally found that answering a whole lot of the different questions that people ask, has helped me define myself better. i learn what i am and am not, and what i am only occasionally. all together makes a picture of me that i can use to explain who i am and what i want. my painting has a title that may be difficult to interpret though.

[LordKAT]

Hi Lorax, welcome to Susan's.


As you can se, there is a lot of information here and plenty of friendly people to answer your questions as best they can.


Here are some site rules and answers to often asked questions.

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[Dread_Faery]

You sound very much like you are somewhere in the wonderfully nebulous blob of non-binary gender identities. I say blob cos there's plenty of us here who don't think of our selves in terms of being somewhere along the point of the male female binary spectrum. There's also plenty that do, which is also awesome.

Basically we have cookies and are awesome and will more than likely be able to help you think through this with zero judgement.

[Shantel]

Hi Lorax,
       I like you're comments and find much of your self description very agreeable, you'll fit right in here and welcome!

[lorax]

Thank you all for your support! I really like this website <|:)

I don't know how to reply directly to each comment (or if that's even a thing) but I will reply to everyone in turn in this box thingy. (Yeah I'm kind of new to this whole internet thing, it's really restricted at my house).

Shantel: Thank you! I feel really safe and welcome here already! <|:)

Dread_Faery: Cool! I've done a lot of personal research on non-bianary identities, and I still learn more every day. It's really complex and difficult to understand, but I like that because it really shows the diversity of the human mind. But I really have trouble feeling validated because there is so little visability, and I hate it when I feel like my struggles are less valid than other people's struggles. Like when I see gay people in Iraq getting stoned to death or gay or trans Russians being put in prison, or the people who get beaten up every day for being gay or trans, I just feel like they deserve to be recognized while I, a white middle-class American, go to school in a very accepting atmosphere and I still feel discontent. I know I shouldn't compare myself to others, but I still have a hard time justifying getting surgery and such when it's not a life-or-death type of situation. Like I'm not so at odds with my body that I would rather die than live as the wrong gender, so I could put my time and energy and money to better use by helping other people who struggle more than I do or by supporting environmental campaigns and such. In short, I support fully everyone and anyone who wants to transition in any way. Except me, I guess... Idk it's weird. Sorry for the long internal dialogue <|:P

Also, I love cookies and baked goods (as long as they're not GENDER ROLLS!!!haha)

LordKAT: Thank you! I will be sure to check those out. <|:D

Taka: Cool! I have considered hrt, but while I would like some of its effects (body fat redistribution, added muscle, skin thickening) I would be equally dysphoric about others (facial and body hair, clitoromegaly, voice deepening*) as I am to my current body. So I'm investigating low-testosterone treatment as a way of striking a balance.

Thank you for the suggestion! I will check those out!

Yes, I've also found that open discussion often helps clarify things for me. But that is a good idea, to answer lots of questions rather than posing them. But the trick is to find questions to ask myself...

Echelonhunt: Thank you! I feel very welcome here.

That's pretty similar to how I feel. Like, I'm not a boy or a girl, but other than that I have no idea. Sometimes it fluctuates and I feel more/less dysphoric than usual.

Yes. I agree. I am asexual as well, but I have had one romantic crush that developed over a year and a half...<|:P She didn't feel the same way and now we're still as close as ever.

I've been contemplating for a long time on what constitutes body dysphoria rather than, say, a cis female not liking her body. Like when I came out to my parents, they were really confused and said that top surgery is the same as plastic surgery. And although I know it's not the same, I can't put my finger on what exactly makes one dysphoria and the other not.

Thank you all for your ideas, you're all really cool and this has actually helped me a lot <|:)

[Dread_Faery]

No gender rolls here

It's very easy to look at people in different situations and compare your situation and struggles to theirs. Facing less outside hardship does not make your personal journey any less harder for you. You are lucky to be in an accepting environment, but it doesn't make your need to understand your gender identity any less valid. It sounds like you have dysphoria about your breasts, these kinds of feelings add up over the years, it may seem like a minor thing now but they can very easily take you to the darkest of places.

[Taka]

i know there are non-binary people who have gotten a mastectomy without any hrt or other surgeries. you might find people who are willing to help with that.

i want the deeper voice, and have always thought a beard would be cool, so these very noticeable effects of hrt wouød be welcome to me. really, the only thing i don't know how i'll really feel about is clitoromegaly. would be one thing if i couød somehow grow an average or even small penis. but just a big clitoris seems... odd?
but that's not something others would see anyway. so the mental effect is what i'll have to judge if i can get this treatment. either it's positive, or it's negative, and that will decide what directions i choose later.

different types of birth control can be tried instead of testosterone if your cycle is a problem for you. won't give you the muscles, but it can level your moods, get rid of any pains you may experience, and stops the cycle if you never take placebo pills if that's what you choose to take.
not a suggestion to take it if you don't need it, but a thought to consider. this too, if it makes you feel like you're not you, it's not really a good choice. there are different hormones in different types though, and some mey feel better than others. it is something i will consider if i can't get t. i think there are non-binary people who have found relief in birth control instead of t.

[lorax]

Dread_faery: Haha thought not <|:)

Rationally, I know that it's irrelevant and unhealthy to compare my troubles to others'. Realistically, however, I can't stop thinking in circles about if I'm really worthy of transition. It's just something I'll have to work on, I guess.

My chest dysphoria has gotten much worse since I entered puberty. And then it was still very painful. I remember being in the girls' locker room for P.E. wearing a training bra and people teasing me about it, and I felt really frustrated and depressed that I had to wear anything, and I put off getting a real bra for as long as possible because I wanted to deny their existence. I didn't realize it then, but it was the beginnings of dysphoria.

Since then, I started binding with tape, Ace bandages, my mom's tights, too-tight sports bras filched from my mom's closet, and just about every long, stretchy piece of fabric I could lay my hands on. I finally got a real binder in winter last year, and I have rarely used a real bra since then. It's uncomfortable physically, and one time I nearly passed out in a bathroom, but it's better than the alternatives.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, yes. I agree with you, I think it will get worse as time goes on. I really want to have top surgery as soon as possible, but I know that will be difficult, for a number of reasons (most of which have to do with money/time/logistics, but also finding some validation for myself).

Taka: Yeah, I feel you. Like, you can't pee out of a clitoris. <|:P That's the only reason I'd really want a penis, for camping and stuff it would be really easy.

I've read about low-dose testosterone HRT, that might be something worth looking into. Or possibly cream or gel that can be applied to a particular site, although I don't know if that would only impact that area, or if it would just go into the bloodstream. <|:P

I have actually tried going on The Pill, for polycystic ovary syndrome. It really screwed with my mood and sent me into depression, even after trying different brands, so I stopped. <|:P Also I'm not allowed to not take the placebo and just stay on the hormones, because it is apparently an invitation for infection (according to my mother).

Thanks for the suggestion, though! <|:)

This is my new favorite website, even above watchcartoononline! (and that's saying something because it has every animated show ever for free and without viruses...you all should check it out if you like cartoons or anime) <|:)

[Shantel]

My chest dysphoria has gotten much worse since I entered puberty. And then it was still very painful.
It's uncomfortable physically

Having been so endowed for quite some time I can relate somewhat. I can't roll over in bed at night that I don't crush them and it is very uncomfortable, so I sometimes wonder wtf was I thinking? But then i am what I am so I deal with it.

[lorax]

Shantel: For me, it's more of a dysphoria thing. I don't physically hurt by them being there, but I feel a crap ton of dysphoria that they are there, stuck to my chest, and there is almost nothing I can do about it. It's more physically painful to bind, but I do most of the time because it's better than the alternative.

[Taka]

if only these body parts were reattachable rather than permanent.
i like how my chest looks in some types of female clothing, but that's also the only thing i like about having breasts.
it seems kind of stupid to get breasts only to look good on rare crossdressing occasions. better to use fake ones.

[Shantel]

Concerning what we have or don't have and our innate human condition, I think it's altogether possible that none of us will ever be content and completely happy with what is lacking in our desires for ourselves. Hopefully each one of us will be able to accept that about our situation and take a rather pragmatic approach rather than to take it to extremes mentally to the extent that it leads to instability and deep seated depression. Hopefully each of us can extract a little joy out of our lives as we learn to accept our limitations and the boundaries of what is not possible. I care a lot for each one here and hold kind and prayerful thoughts for all as we learn to achieve that level of serenity in each of our own lives. May the days, months and years ahead of us be kind to us!

[lorax]

Taka: Yes I feel 100%. In some situations, I could see how any one body part could help or hinder something depending on context. I have been feeling particularly dysphoric about my chest recently, and binding only goes so far. Currently I use two "short" binders from Underworks one on top of the other. But because they are "short" binders, they have a really tight section just under the boobs, which sort of makes my curves show and makes my boobs stick out more noticeably. Also, even if they flattened perfectly, I would still have tons of dysphoria because I know they're there.

Today, I was feeling super dysphoric and I even packed, which is unusual for me. And then that awkward moment happened when someone told me I'm pretty. I really appreciate the complement, but it still hurt that I was still perceived as 100% female.

And then an even more awkward moment happened when I was talking to my teacher and she kept calling me "she", and then my awesome friend stood up for me and said that I wasn't a girl, and she said "No, I think that in this context, she is still very much a 'she'" and laughed. And then I was looking at her with what I hoped wasn't too dejected of a look, and she said "Unless you want to go the other way" as if it was a joke.

Then my friend helped me to tell her about my gender, and she didn't get it, and said "well unless you make a decision, I will continue to call you 'she'". And then my friend helped me again, saying "Oh the decision has already been made, they want you to use 'they' instead of 'he' or 'she'" She still didn't get it, and tried for a while to explain to me that using "they" as a pronoun would be very confusing to the class, but I think she will try to be more sensitive in the future. Hopefully. <|:P

So that was the awkward, impromptu way I came out to my teacher today. <|:P Thankfully I have an awesome friend to back me up.

Shantel: Yes, I hope that I, too, will someday be at peace with my body. But realistically, that isn't going to happen for a long time, and after top surgery. <|:P

Sorry for my ramblings, I just need to get that off my chest. HAHA CHEST!!! LOLOLOLOL...

Humor is how I deal with pain <|:P it's not even really funny... fjdfrydkdyrxfk

[Taka]

it's not really funny, but we do it still.
humor is a way to stay alive.

your friend sounds awesome.
and your teacher kid of stupid, the way most people are.
it's not difficult to call people something other than he or she or girl or boy.
most languages have more than just four words.

[lorax]

Yes... Whenever I feel really awkward or dysphoric, I tend to grimace which actually looks like a smile, but it's not... <|:P

Yes she's great <|:) I am really lucky to have such amazing people around me...

Yeah... she's kind of old and slightly southern, so I can't say I really blame her, because she hasn't been exposed to that way of thinking, but it still really gets to me. The other thing is that she's kinda deaf, so I ended up almost yelling so that she could hear me, and it was really awkward in front of the whole class. And she called me a girl today...

Grrr... oh well. Being frustrated is just going to lead to greater dysphoria so I guess I just have to appreciate what  I've got. Like my awesome friends, and you all, for example. Thank you to everyone for your support <|:)