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Does anyone worry that people are just "humoring" you?

Started by littleredrobinhood, October 20, 2014, 10:06:54 PM

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Mosaic dude

I can think of one or two people who are just humouring me, but they aren't people  I respect so I don't give a toss.
Living in interesting times since 1985.
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sneakersjay

For me, initially, esp. when I came out and started passing (when I asked for name change/pronouns etc) I did feel like people were just humoring me, playing along in some silly game.  It was weird.  But now that I'm almost 7 years on T, I no longer feel humored.  Occ I still hear a coworker misgender me, but they are usually ones I don't work with often.  I usually ignore it, because they are the ones that will seem stupid.

But yeah, early transition is awkward for a lot of reasons.  I'm sure, though, my sister still thinks of me as a girl pretending to be male, though she hasn't yet said that to my face.  but then, she never liked me much anyway.


Jay


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GnomeKid

nope.  I also didn't come out to almost anyone pre-T.  I kind of let the changes speak for themselves.  At some point people just switched.  I never asked anyone to specifically.  In fact my family asked if I wanted them to switch and I just said that they should whenever it came naturally to them.  Sometimes my dad still calls my sister and I "The girls."  I don't let it get to me.  He'd been using that title for us for 20 years before I transitioned.  Both of my parents are super supportive.  Whats in a word?  I know who I am.  Really I tried to let the transition happen as naturally as I could.  I never minded my female name, but many of the people I knew eventually just felt weird calling me a female name and switched to the male... maybe they thought I cared?  I have a friend or two that still call me my old name.  I like it.  They've asked if it bothers me.  It really doesn't.  I didn't even want to change my name to begin with, but my mom convinced me it was a good idea.  I'm glad I did now.  Its a sweet name, and it probably makes things like getting jobs easier. 

My transition was more for me than anyone else.  Sure, its nice to be called he or sir without question and to be judged/held to male clothing standards rather than female, but I transitioned to feel more comfortable in my own skin.  Gendered words are just words to me. 

It also sounds kind of harsh to say, but people also just don't have the time to remember to call you male when they read you as female.  It'd be nice if they did, but they see a person their brains tell them the person is female based on every other experience they've ever had in their lives (we start socially gendering people really really young) and they say she or her because that is what slips out of their brains. 

Its like that experiment where you look at the names of colors on notecards that are written in other colors.  Sometimes its hard to make the connection. BLUE ORANGE YELLOW GREEN PURPLE RED You're supposed to name the color the word is written in, but you end up reading the word instead (or visa versa).  Sometimes people aren't trying to be douchey.  Its just what they see you as.  Sometimes that truly sucks, but you can only expect so much out of the people around you no matter how supportive they try to be.  Like the guy who said he has trouble remembering someone is a dude... Its not his fault his brain says female when he is with you.  Its programmed in.  He's obviously trying to be supportive by saying dude and bro a lot to remind himself, but its hard to switch something so deeply ingrained in us.

That being said some people are just ignorant douchebags.  They'll mock the kid with downs syndrome or in a wheelchair.  Some people just suck.  I wish they didn't, but I definitely know of a few people who have probably said, or at least thought, some ->-bleeped-<- about me.  I don't care because I'm more comfortable with me now.  Thats all I care about. 


I might've gotten off topic there, but I think its all somewhat relevant... Long story short though: The people who you think are humoring you are probably just trying their best to not offend you.  They don't understand being trans.  They're not experienced or in any way knowledgeable on trans issues.  You're probably the only trans person they've ever met.  To them you are a girl who wants to be a boy.  They don't understand how thats any different from someone being a boy who was born in a female body (and really, other than semantics, is it actually any different?).  Body and gender to them have always been synonymous.
I solemnly swear I am up to no good.

"Oh what a cute little girl, or boy if you grow up and feel thats whats inside you" - Liz Lemon

Happy to be queer!    ;)
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onescaredquestion

Honestly, if a bearded guy tells me his name is Anna and I should call him"she", I run. It doesn't matter if he turns out to be trans, I just can't accept that. My brain doesn't bend that way. I never asked/expected people to call me differently until I started 24/7 and passed. I'm glad if your brain bends that way. Mine doesn't.

It's different if you do your best and kinda almost pass most of the time. But otherwise I'll just avoid you, for your own good, because honestly... I WOULD just be humoring you. I
I'd be lying. So it's better you find people who can do it for you without lying.

In other words, there's a difference between ACCEPTING someone and being able to accommodate their wishes
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aleon515

I, OTOH, am perfectly cool calling that gal Anna. And if you want I can use the pronoun "they" fairly consistently. See MY brain does bend this way. BUT did I grow up being that way? Absolutely not. Did I even know you could be that way? No I did not. Did I even know about it 5 years ago? No I didn't. But gender identity is independent of sex assigned at birth and gender presentation (or how you look). This is all called learning. And you can learn if you are 7, 17, or 70 (or refuse to learn at those ages).

Now I agree that it is 100% easier to correctly gender a person if they "pass" as that gender. It's easier for me as well.

Now obviously we are not talking about a person who is dressing all girly girl and wants you to call him Bruce and "he". And this is a sister we are talking about and not a buddy. And no one has to hang out with someone they don't feel comfortable. OF course there is no law that siblings are close either. Sometimes your chosen family is more your family than your family. Always has been so for me.

--Jay


Quote from: onescaredquestion on October 22, 2014, 10:20:50 PM
Honestly, if a bearded guy tells me his name is Anna and I should call him"she", I run. It doesn't matter if he turns out to be trans, I just can't accept that. My brain doesn't bend that way. I never asked/expected people to call me differently until I started 24/7 and passed. I'm glad if your brain bends that way. Mine doesn't.

It's different if you do your best and kinda almost pass most of the time. But otherwise I'll just avoid you, for your own good, because honestly... I WOULD just be humoring you. I
I'd be lying. So it's better you find people who can do it for you without lying.

In other words, there's a difference between ACCEPTING someone and being able to accommodate their wishes
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pianoforte

I worry about that kind of thing, too. I'm probably one of the most feminine people on my male-identified trans support group. Last week someone said to me, "so, you're female-identified, right?" and it kind of freaked me out until I did mental gymnastics to make myself believe that the question meant I was passing as a bio-male trans woman. But yeah, even there I worry that my acceptance to the boys' club is somehow conditional or just humoring me in some way, like they're all thinking "oh, this kid has no idea what he's doing; he's not really even a trans guy."

Most of that is probably in my head. When I got into selective choirs in high school I always worried that they only accepted me to make me feel good about myself and I didn't actually have it in me (talent, skill, or in the current case, manliness).

But some people will get frustrated by change and/or won't be able to make the switch in their heads. With people you know pre-transition, it is entirely possible that humoring you is the best response you can hope for... but hopefully the switch can eventually be made.

I know I have had a hard time correctly gendering pre-transition trans people whose expression closely aligns with their assigned gender. I think the only difference between that and humoring is that I truly feel bad every time I realize I've gotten it wrong.

Btw, Robin, the thing your sister said was totally messed up, but definitely looks a lot more like ignorance than not caring. I hope that you will find within you the energy to step back out of the closet and into the classroom, because the only cure for that kind of benign ignorance is education. Also maybe her new co-worker (or whoever he is) will be able to help her along in that process. Then you might at least have one family member who is not just humoring you.
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onescaredquestion


I think it's unfair that you assume everyone's brain can"learn" it as easily. There's a huge difference between knowing something and an instinctive reaction to something, and also perceiving something.
Learning to write perfect Chinese is a lot easier task in my opinion than learning to see/perceive that guy as the girl Anna, even if I KNOW it's not "really" a "guy". So I can learn perfect Chinese in a year or two, you can learn to see things differently in that time. I think our brains are different enough that there's nothing where you can really say "it's the same for everyone", but you're free to disagree.
I try to get rid of that person nicely and smoothly out of consideration.for them and myself. I don't think that's wrong.

Quote from: aleon515 on October 22, 2014, 10:37:43 PM
I, OTOH, am perfectly cool calling that gal Anna. And if you want I can use the pronoun "they" fairly consistently. See MY brain does bend this way. BUT did I grow up being that way? Absolutely not. Did I even know you could be that way? No I did not. Did I even know about it 5 years ago? No I didn't. But gender identity is independent of sex assigned at birth and gender presentation (or how you look). This is all called learning. And you can learn if you are 7, 17, or 70 (or refuse to learn at those ages).

Now I agree that it is 100% easier to correctly gender a person if they "pass" as that gender. It's easier for me as well.

Now obviously we are not talking about a person who is dressing all girly girl and wants you to call him Bruce and "he". And this is a sister we are talking about and not a buddy. And no one has to hang out with someone they don't feel comfortable. OF course there is no law that siblings are close either. Sometimes your chosen family is more your family than your family. Always has been so for me.

--Jay
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littleredrobinhood

It's saddening to hear that even other trans people can be stubborn and refuse to even talk to you unless you "pass"...

I truly hope you're in a minority in that, onescaredquestion, because if you're not, I don't think I could ever come out again. I wouldn't be able to handle going to a support group and being avoided by the people there, just because they don't want to have to put in the effort to use the correct name and pronouns.

Slip ups can sting, yes. But while they hurt, they're still much less painful than someone just shrugging their shoulders and saying "Don't be mad at me, it's not my fault you don't pass."
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onescaredquestion

Quote from: littleredrobinhood on October 23, 2014, 12:15:11 AM
It's saddening to hear that even other trans people can be stubborn and refuse to even talk to you unless you "pass"...

I truly hope you're in a minority in that, onescaredquestion, because if you're not, I don't think I could ever come out again. I wouldn't be able to handle going to a support group and being avoided by the people there, just because they don't want to have to put in the effort to use the correct name and pronouns.

Slip ups can sting, yes. But while they hurt, they're still much less painful than someone just shrugging their shoulders and saying "Don't be mad at me, it's not my fault you don't pass."

You don't understand that not everyone wants a reminder they're a freak, and to SOME people, having a bearded masculine guy insisting on being called by a female is exactly that. I don't know when it became desirable and positive to be abnormal, but I didn't get the memo. I'm a girl who was born into a fairly androgynous male body. I fixed it. Now I'm a girl in a girl body. I have no problem being friends with girls in transition, but I don't even have guy friends, as in people who are guys and not trans. Why should I go out of my way to do something for a trans person that I won't even do for a non trans person? If you look distinctly like a guy, my mind perceives you as a guy even if the information part of my mind is telling "it's a girl, her name is Anna"
I can't do it.
I don't go to support groups and I'm not part of any communities. I told you,I wouldn't fit in. I see this as being considerate of people like you. I'm in a minority for sure, so please don't be afraid. You don't have to avoid anything because of me.

I don't refuse to talk to you.
I refuse to be a"friend" who constantly offends you or has a hard time not offending you. It doesn't have to be words, sometimes it's little gestures and tells that tell you what I'm really thinking.

Am I really a bad person for not wishing that kind of "friendship" on you, for sparing you from me and me from difficulties in dealing with you? If I am, then I accept that.
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NathanielM

I actually thought of something else because of this. I don't always see it as 'humoring' either. You see I'm sure that a year ago when I started my parents and brother didn't see a guy when they talked to me. but they did care about me, so they tried.

Being trans is really hard to truly understand for most cispeople, I've noticed that by being very open. People ask questions and they do respect you and some of them will even step up for me and say 'no, you're just a guy it should be that simple'. But still mistakes slip in (my presentation is still fairly androgynous) and they don't 'get it'. But I understand that and I don't see it as humoring me when these people put in the effort to change their perception of me. Even if they can't do that and just make sure to correct themselves and respect me by using my pronouns I'm okay.

I do see it more as a positive thing, more as people making the effort to give me a base of respect than people humoring me. After all changing your thoughts about something so basic as gender is hard, it can be done! Absolutely, by everyone willing to try, but it's hard and it can be a long process. Especially if you haven't doubted our binary thinking before. And I think as often with learning, one of the steps is: thinking instinctively 'that's a dude' but then adding onto that 'no, she isn't, she's a lady' and then acting upon the second thing. I heard this quote somewhere and it seems to fit: the first thought is what you were taught, and the second is wat you are trying to be (something like it at least). You do have influence on your thoughts, they're yours after all.

I also don't have a problem calling a big burly bearded lady, her. You tell me you identify as a gender, I'll refer to you as that. I might mess up, but I want to give you the respect you deserve and try. Even if my perception is faulty at that moment and tells me she's a dude. I don't think that's humoring or lying, it's respect and caring.
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Taka

i don't really see what people's problem is.
i don't even want to understand it.
much better to be the weird one who'll call people whatever they want to be no matter how they look, because gender has nothing to do with looks.
i could even change on a day to day basis, or as often as they tell me to.

my mom told me about this kid in her school who's come out to a few teachers as trans.
they're taking care of him, have talked to his parents. my mom even told him that it didn't surprise him at all that he was trans, since she even thought he was a boy the first time she saw him (which was perfectly correct of her to think), and that she thinks that everyone should get to be exactly who they want to be.
well, i'm an obvious exception that she doesn't even want to see. as well as my two younger brothers. she had no qualms telling my youngest brother how disgusting she found it that he'd shaved his chest just to see how he liked it. and has told me that she'd never be able to accept any of her kids being gay or trans.
but that was kind of off topic...
what i didn't like about how my mother talked about that kid in her school, was that she kept calling him a girl and using female pronouns when talking about him.
so i ask her, if she shouldn't start saying "he" when talking about him.
which triggered a whole lot of excuses, basically ending with "that has to be her own choice", and she even refused to see my point in how making that choice would be so much easier if she'd just give him the option at least.

i'm not really supposed to know about this kid. it's still very confidential and everything. but i do know that there have been meetings with the school nurse, and thus i've decided to talk to her about starting an lgbt support group. can't mention something i don't know, but i can most definitely show my support and make it known that i'm here if that kid wants someone slightly more like-minded to talk to.
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aleon515

What I'm responding to is that you seem almost angry that someone would expect that a sister or brother might try and connect with their own sibling as your gender. I'm not so worried that people take longer or shorter at learning, but unless you are severely impaired, which you don't appear to be, there is no reason that someone with the desire and attitude can learn. I have worked with children with severe learning deficits and I never considered any of them incapable of learning. I think most lack of learning like this, has more to do with desire and attitude. (Speaking a foreign language is a kind of poor analogy given that it is more a specific skill or aptitude/same with musical ability.)

It sounds in this case, that this fellow's sister is unwilling vs being unable.

To expect 100% passing before someone tries to be accepted as one's gender?... well glad that my friends WERE capable of learning this kind of thing despite being way older than you seem to be.

Slipping is something else. I would expect someone to miss pronouns or use a birth name especially in the same family.

Well all things being equal, I don't think it's "wrong" or indicative of being a "bad person".

--Jay

Quote from: onescaredquestion on October 22, 2014, 11:18:48 PM
I think it's unfair that you assume everyone's brain can"learn" it as easily. There's a huge difference between knowing something and an instinctive reaction to something, and also perceiving something.
Learning to write perfect Chinese is a lot easier task in my opinion than learning to see/perceive that guy as the girl Anna, even if I KNOW it's not "really" a "guy". So I can learn perfect Chinese in a year or two, you can learn to see things differently in that time. I think our brains are different enough that there's nothing where you can really say "it's the same for everyone", but you're free to disagree.
I try to get rid of that person nicely and smoothly out of consideration.for them and myself. I don't think that's wrong.
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