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Is this Transphobic?

Started by melissa90299, August 14, 2007, 02:37:29 PM

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Teri Anne

I remember Renee Richards commenting in her autobiography about her own TS prejudice.  She was in the waiting room of a TS therapist's office and she looked around and wondered how she could be part of such a group.  I've often wondered if that's the reason TS's don't usually organize socially, out in the open, like gay groups.  Do we see our own "faults" in other TS's?  How many TS's are secretly transphobic?

I admit that I've shared uneasy feelings towards some other TS's.  There was a TS in a TS group once who was built like a football player but loved to wear chiffon dresses and heels.  Others in the group, as has been said in other posts, made no effort to soften their very bassy voices.  It made no sense to me and I realized that the way they presented themselves made me feel threatened -- society would equate me as being in the same box as the Jerry Springer-type TS's.

After one of these encounters at the TS group, I cried on my friend's shoulder, pleading, "Was I going to look like that after transitioning?"  She assured me that I looked fine and sounded feminine.

For me, it was more of a FEAR thing than a transphobic thing.  Was I as obvious as these others?  Years of living as a woman has helped dispel most of those fears.

Teri Anne
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genopunk

Quote from: Megan on August 16, 2007, 11:52:12 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 14, 2007, 02:37:29 PM
...What does bother me is that I feel my attitude regarding her was judgmental and transphobic. So I thought I would put it out there and see what others think.

Melissa,

I overheard a podcast being recorded on August 11, and someone (that I know) was speaking in her male voice--the only voice she uses. Actually, and worse yet, I think it might have been her "radio voice." I reacted the same way you did, and I wondered what listeners would think. Wouldn't it be funny if it were the same podcast?

This person could, I imagine, make anyone feel homophobic. I don't feel badly for feeling that way, and I don't see why you should either if you heard something like I heard.
I regard to this Megan,
I really hope that you are not all talking about the podcasts that my partner and I produce. Since we recorded a session at an event that you go to.... on August 11.  Though we didn't interview anyone by that name.

Since I am a podcaster, I have to say that you really have to understand just how hard it is to get on the air and say something worth while.  I personaly know that the podcast that myself and my partener have produced has educated a lot of our friends, and many people who knew about what we were going through and were afraid to ask.

A VOICE is what the trans world needs, and I stand proudly behind ANYONE who speaks out on radio, TV, or whatever!  No matter what, there will always be women in our community who can't adapt their voice, and this was even mentioned by the woman who we were interviewing.  Male puberty does a lot of damage, some of which can never be reversed.  There are some that are lucky, but not everyone.

How as a community can you condemn someone who is speaking up for you!  Whoever this person was, that you are putting down for having a male voice, they are at least informing the public.  Can you say the same?

Mila
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Hazumu

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 14, 2007, 02:37:29 PM
I am listening to a transgender podcast, (audio) and the guest is introduced as (not her real name) Linda Jones, the woman strats talking and the voice is unequivocally male, as I listen it is impossible to conjure up anything but the image of a man talking. Although it doesn't make me uncomfortable, I would say I found it unsettling and I had a hard time not judging this woman as to her wisdom of doing a radio interview with a voice that people are going to hear as male.

What does bother me is that I feel my attitude regarding her was judgmental and transphobic. So I thought I would put it nout there and see what others think.

Hi, Melissa 90299;

Are you referring to this podcast?  This is my real voice.  A brand new girl (Jessica) joined the show.

Is this what you and Megan are referring to?  :angel:

Karen
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Jaynatopia

I suppose my feeling is the message is more important than the voice that carries it.
Not many transgender women have the courage to speak up at all. I disagree with the
attitude that if someone doesn't yet have (or many never have) a passable voice then they
need to shut up and stay invisible.
When we interview someone for our podcast it is not because, "Oh they sound sooooo pretty!" its because they have an important and interesting story to tell.
Some transgender women work long and hard on their voice without ever achieving broadcast quality. The first transgender woman who took the time and effort to befriend me when I was just starting out still gets mistaken as a man on the phone.
I feel if one has initial reaction was a bit phobic and judgmental and perhaps further introspection in yourself
would help you figure why you had such a strongly negative "knee-jerk" reaction. It would be a sad day when we cannot accept all trans persons openly and no one should be ostracized for failing to live up to someone's personal standards.... We all have our failings and virtues and should not project them onto others.
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cindianna_jones

Quote from: Elizabeth on August 17, 2007, 09:23:09 PM

I don't know if anyone caught that program about transsexuals in prison, but there was this one MtF that was in prison in Idaho. She looked and sounded very manly and knew it. She had been blacklisted in the oil field where she had worked as a roughneck. She decided her only choice was to go to LA and prostitute herself, but soon found out she was too old and too manly.

The point is, I caught myself being prejudice against her, as if her dysphoria was not valid because she was so manly. In the end I really felt bad for her and ashamed of myself. I am sure many people see me the same way. Anyway, thanks for bringing it up.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Elizabeth, I did see this episode and I found  myself sobbing uncontrollably for her.  What a terrible hand she's had to deal with.

Cindi
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melissa90299

Quote from: Jaynatopia on August 19, 2007, 12:46:54 PM
I suppose my feeling is the message is more important than the voice that carries it.
Not many transgender women have the courage to speak up at all. I disagree with the
attitude that if someone doesn't yet have (or many never have) a passable voice then they
need to shut up and stay invisible.


You are re-framing the situation. This was a person who spoke like a man and made no effort at all to sound anything but. People like that representing us are doing the community no favors, they are just confirming the "man in the dress" myth.



Posted on: August 19, 2007, 05:41:13 PM
Quote from: Karen on August 19, 2007, 12:26:55 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 14, 2007, 02:37:29 PM
I am listening to a transgender podcast, (audio) and the guest is introduced as (not her real name) Linda Jones, the woman strats talking and the voice is unequivocally male, as I listen it is impossible to conjure up anything but the image of a man talking. Although it doesn't make me uncomfortable, I would say I found it unsettling and I had a hard time not judging this woman as to her wisdom of doing a radio interview with a voice that people are going to hear as male.

What does bother me is that I feel my attitude regarding her was judgmental and transphobic. So I thought I would put it nout there and see what others think.

Hi, Melissa 90299;

Are you referring to this podcast?  This is my real voice.  A brand new girl (Jessica) joined the show.

Is this what you and Megan are referring to?  :angel:

Karen

No!


Does that sound like someone who is making NO EFFORT at sounding female to you? (That is why communication is sooooooo difficyult on this forum) That voice is far from perfect but certainly not what I would think anyone with an ear would categorize as totally male.
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cindianna_jones

QuoteYou are re-framing the situation. This was a person who spoke like a man and made no effort at all to sound anything but. People like that representing us are doing the community no favors, they are just confirming the "man in the dress" myth.

.... and how shallow we are if we can't rise above this ....

I'm truly ashamed of the callousness and contempt we still carry for one another.

Cindi
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Teri Anne

It's presumably human nature to see what we're insecure about in others.  Without it, love stories in movies or in songs wouldn't seem so PERSONAL to us -- something we can relate to.  We can feel their pain.

And when we feel that pain, we say to ourselves, "Oh, yeah.  I can identify with that."

So maybe it's as Cindi suggests: "I found myself sobbing uncontrollably for her.  What a terrible hand she's had to deal with."

What we feel isn't transphobia, but transpain.

Teri Anne
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Sheila

Why would you or anyone else care what this person sounds like. You should listen to the message that she has to say and not the tone or how feminine, or lack of, her voice sounds. I just feel very sorry for some who put how much a person is on the inside by looking at their outward appearance. I really don't like it when I feel that way, but would never ever say or try to belittle anyone who doesn't look 100% Barbie. We are all different, so try to accept the diversity. I will get of my soap mountain now. This just upsets me to no end. Would you rather they choke down a .45 calibur bullet?
Sheila
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Kate

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 19, 2007, 05:48:12 PM
People like that representing us are doing the community no favors...

Representing... who? What "community?"

I just don't think in these terms. No one is "representing" me. Being TS isn't a "lifestyle" for me, or a belief system to be "represented." And it's *especially* not some sort of competition to see who's the most "representative." It's just something I gotta deal with. Others do too, in whatever way they find best for them.

~Kate~
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melissa90299

Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 19, 2007, 05:50:37 PM
QuoteYou are re-framing the situation. This was a person who spoke like a man and made no effort at all to sound anything but. People like that representing us are doing the community no favors, they are just confirming the "man in the dress" myth.

.... and how shallow we are if we can't rise above this ....

I'm truly ashamed of the callousness and contempt we still carry for one another.

Cindi

I am puzzled that people ascribe emotions that aren't there to a judgment I made. I feel, and others agree, that a woman who sounds unequivocally male, should avoid telephone interviews. It really permeates a myth that is not productive, IMO. There is no contempt or callousness involved here.

Posted on: August 19, 2007, 06:12:12 PM
Quote from: Kate on August 19, 2007, 06:07:41 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 19, 2007, 05:48:12 PM
People like that representing us are doing the community no favors...

Representing... who? What "community?"

I just don't think in these terms. No one is "representing" me. Being TS isn't a "lifestyle" for me, or a belief system to be "represented." And it's *especially* not some sort of competition to see who's the most "representative." It's just something I gotta deal with. Others do too, in whatever way they find best for them.

~Kate~

Whether you like it or not, someone who is a trans-activist and gives radio interviews is representing us, the trans community. It's like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, like it or not, represent the black community. Being African-American isn't a lifestyle or a belief system either and there are a lot of blackfolk who criticize Jackson, Sharpton and others. Of course, they don't speak for all balck people but they speak for the "community" in a broad sense.
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Kate

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 19, 2007, 06:12:12 PM
I feel, and others agree, that a woman who sounds unequivocally male, should avoid telephone interviews.

Why?

Should less-attractive TSs avoid TV appearances then too? Shall we establish a committee to approve who does and doesn't speak for "us?"

I can't believe we're condoning censoring people because of our OWN projected insecurities. If someone embarasses us, IMHO the problem lies within.

~Kate~
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melissa90299

Quote from: Kate on August 19, 2007, 06:17:45 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 19, 2007, 06:12:12 PM
I feel, and others agree, that a woman who sounds unequivocally male, should avoid telephone interviews.

Why?

Should less-attractive TSs avoid TV appearances then too? Shall we establish a committee to approve who does and doesn't speak for "us?"

I can't believe we're condoning censoring people because of our OWN projected insecurities. If someone embarasses us, IMHO the problem lies within.

~Kate~

Never said I was embarrassed, Kate. You are projecting your insecurity on men actually. As good as my voice is, I would not do a radio interview now (probably six months from now) and certainly not one representing a transgender organization. That is not insecurity, it is knowing one's limitations. It's like I wouldn't try to get an audition for a gig as a mezzo-soprano at the MET or as a dancer for the SF Ballet.

And no, someone who is a man in a dress shouldn't go on TV representing us either. No one is censoring any one Kate, as much as you seem to want to create the drama that there is. We are criticizing the person's judgment. And based on the feedback, it's not transphobic, it's not projecting insecurity, it's not callous, or anything else. It is a little judgmental but I feel it is warranted criticism.
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cindianna_jones

I believe that Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton do a wonderful job in representing equal rights for us.  Remember, it is equal rights we want.  I don't want trans rights only.  For that would do no good to the <take your pick> minority.

There are people who will go publicly go to bat for specific causes.  And for that I give them credit.  I could care less what they look like or sound like.  Yes, there is a public perception issue to contend with.  I can guarantee you they won't learn to deal with it until we can.  It is not about public perception.  It is about equal rights.

As far as personal discomfort goes.... I believe I have addressed this already in this thread.

Melissa, if you were to appear in a public venue, I would feel the same way. It wouldn't matter to me how you looked or sounded.  If you were to stand up for equal rights, then I'd be behind you all the way.  I wouldn't care what you looked like or sounded like.  I would tend to discount others' stories of the event.  I'd want to hear you speak your mind.

Cindi
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melissa90299

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Kate

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 19, 2007, 06:30:56 PM
It's like I wouldn't try to get an audition for a gig as a mezzo-soprano at the MET or as a dancer for the SF Ballet.

I didn't know anyone was "auditioning" for anything? Why does anyone need approval, be it yours or anyone else's?

Again, this isn't about perfecting a role or part for me. I am who I am. That person is who they are too. I don't think they need to live up to yours or mine expectations. They only need live up to their own.

I guess I'm just confused as to the whole idea that someone "represents" you? You didn't hire them. They owe you nothing. You have no "right" to have expectations of them, IMHO.

QuoteAnd based on the feedback, it's not transphobic, it's not projecting insecurity, it's not callous, or anything else. It is a little judgmental but I feel it is warranted criticism.

People saying so doesn't make it truth. It IS transphobic to me. I haven't heard the interview, but even if her voice wasn't passable, it's not like she was interviewed to demonstrate a passable voice. She was interviewed to tell her story as a TS, right? So she did. It was her story, told her way. If people were "uncomfortable" with it, then IMHO that just reveals insecurities THEY need to take a peek at.

~Kate~
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Sarah Louise

Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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cindianna_jones

Expressing an insecurity is one thing.  Expressing one's own discomfort is another. But advising someone to not go on the air because of their voice?

It's not an acting part.  Nor is it a photo shoot for a fashion magazine.  It is a public forum set up to elicit personal perspective and opinion.  And if the organizer wants this person's opinion, she has every right to ask for it.

Yes,  it is callous to expect anyone to live up to my own standard, no matter what that standard is.  It is contemptuous and foul.  It carries an air of superiority, racial purity, call it whatever you want.  No matter how you paint this skunk, it still stinks.

I'm locking this thread for the time being.

Cindi
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