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How you see love and the lover from female view

Started by Stacy, May 06, 2019, 02:25:42 PM

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Stacy

Hi

From a female view, whatever you are cis or trans female, I would like to know how you see love hatching.
I see two ways:
Way A: love is actually first made of friendship. Affinities develop, love emerge, or not.
Way B: love must be took like something we want. Friendship has nothing to do there, it's mating, more like animals. You ask, you are accepted or not, period. Friendship sign the dead of any possible future love.

My view:
Way A from how I see it, is based more on respect and seeing the other like human more than like a sexual object. Even is there is sexual appeal, there is most of it an interest to know the other. Friendship involve no obligation, no stress, and cancel any macho/male hunter/sex hunter behavior since it's a too long way to proceed for them.

Way B is more taking the other for meat. It seems also to imply that friendship cannot be possible, that you cannot mix friendship and "love".

I talked with a guy that told me that I would be surprised how many girls want to be taken like meat. I was mad. I've heard girls all my life complaint that guys just want sex. So how girls could prefer to risk and go on so fast without friendship first? But I'm also interested to know what happen for female as a partner. Is this kind of approach just male oriented? An approach that females also think to be the best? Why so much complaints then?

For me it's A:
I developed love based on friendship and they were the most strong and feeling the most authentic. I think love is a kind of special friendship, but still have deep friendship as roots. Like friendship level 100. I love romance and I think it's way better than taking the other for meat. Romance can put the other very high, and prove a lot of dedication, a strong will to have the other in a clean and beautiful way. But it seems romance is just a dream or dead for a lot of people. Or worse they never experienced it or know nothing about it. I also love the sexual part of being wanted like meat, I love a strong desire, I understand the thrill. But even if I want this, it's when the couple is already created, it's playing, it's consenting pleasure. It's not how I want it to be for someone I barely know.

So, do females want really to be taken so soon and this way? It looks like some girls want to be treated like ->-bleeped-<-. It seems to work. I've even seen polls of girls wanting someone "not too kind". I can understand that we don't want someone that has no personality, that never choose, that never stand for him/herself. But aside this, how be "too kind" is bad? I'm more a dreamer and the romantic kind, I could not match with someone on sight just by appearance, I seek friendship and I see if there is a fire starting later, or not.
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Michelle_P

There seems to be infinite variety in sexual attraction and desires, just as with everything else.

I do know that a fair number of women are like me, demisexual individuals.

For demisexual persons, in general sexual attraction to a stranger is fleeting to nonexistent.  We generally will not feel sexual attraction to another person until after an emotional or romantic attraction is established with that person. 

This may simply be a matter of trust, or bad past experiences with others.  It may be something deep in our biology that drives this, or some quirk of personality.  It doesn't really matter.  I need that connection present and maintained before that fire can be kindled.

What's really funny is that some women have apparently made passes at me, but because that connection wasn't there, I really was just confused by it, as in "I wonder why on earth she did THAT?"

🤔🤭
Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath and fire my spirit.

My personal transition path included medical changes.  The path others take may require no medical intervention, or different care.  We each find our own path. I provide these dates for the curious.
Electrolysis - Hours in The Chair: 238 (8.5 were preparing for GCS, five clearings); On estradiol patch June 2016; Full-time Oct 22, 2016; GCS Oct 20, 2017; FFS Aug 28, 2018; Stage 2 labiaplasty revision and BA Feb 26, 2019
Michelle's personal blog and biography
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Kylo

What "too kind" may well be referring to is a man who is not a pushover. A man who will concede in everything all of the time or can be bullied by his spouse is usually seen as unattractive by women. The reasoning behind this is that if he can be swayed that easily, he won't be able to defend his girlfriend/wife when needs must, either with words or actions. If he is a submissive character, he will not be able to keep aggressive males at bay. That is usually very important to women. That's why they often desire men who are bigger and taller than they are. You only have to ask the ones who do why they usually want this, and they will tell you.

Some women - especially younger ones - do like the "bad boys". This may seem counter-intuitive but it's attractive on some level to some women, undeniably.

Why might they do this? Nobody can say for sure in each case, but it's also a fair bet that a "bad boy" has better chances of survival in various situations due to his selfishness than a submissive man who may not do what is necessary in order to survive. A bad boy is an "alpha" male in behavior, and these type of males - in many species of animal - are proven to be successful due to their take-no-prisoners or selfish attitude. And at the end of the day, dating and mating is subconsciously down to seeking out people with good genes, and good ability to survive and/or provide. Human beings are no exception to wanting to select people as boyfriends and husbands who are more likely to be able to provide and protect. There are outliers of course, but in general, you see a common trend in what women find attractive qualities in a man.

For the female human, selecting a male mate through most of human history and evolution has meant negotiating a trade-off between the dangerous aspects of masculinity (selfishness) and the positive aspects (protectiveness and provision). Therefore the "ideal" man in most women's eyes (ask them and you'll see) is a man who looks generally masculine, is larger and stronger than she is in order to protect her and her children from threats, and who manages to contain both a caring and an aggressive side. This aggressive side is meant to be shown to threats, and the caring side to his mate and kids. And so we end up with women often being in two minds about whether to go for the "bad boy" or the perhaps less immediately appealing stable provider figure. You will find women are more attracted to bad boys when they are younger and not thinking of starting a family, but when they are thinking of starting a family, their desire for a reliable and less selfish man will surface. I've seen it many times in people I know, and the studies on the phenomenon of female desire seem to bear this out.

So... yes, some women are immediately subconsciously attracted to bad boys and their selfish genes because after all, selfishness can equal survival. But stability and provision also equals survival. Some women do like dominant men, though I would say from observation that this only works out when the woman herself isn't equally dominant, or they end up at each other's throats. You can also get situations in which the woman is dominant and the man a more submissive provider type.

At the end of the day sexual attraction is separate and distinct from friendship and it's either there or not there. Whether or not a person allows themselves to become involved solely on the basis of sexual attraction, or solely on the basis of friendship, or a bit of both is usually down to the individual's personality.

Trans people often have a unique perspective on what sort of person they want to spend their life with. We have the combination of understanding more than one perspective/experience on gender and our situation is often complicated by the very real and present issue of sexual attraction and its immediate relation to reproduction or to innate biological sexual qualities as that presents in the mind of our partners as well as ourselves. I myself did not properly comprehend the nature of the average person's sexual attraction habits until I had transitioned and seen for myself what hormones and role swapping do to the brain. I now better understand why women tend to desire what they do, and why men also tend to desire the sorts of women they do.

Not that it necessarily should dictate to you or your journey. Almost everyone is out looking for their "perfect fit". That usually means more than just being sexually appealing or a "quick fix" if it is to last.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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Allison S

I don't get being taken like "meat"... I did that when I was a younger gay boy. It wasn't really fun and I stopped that. Then I realized I could do things with guys without sex/penetration, but I started developing feelings for a guy who wouldn't have wanted to be seen with me outside of the bedroom... That could've hurt me but I realized I could do better anyway and I transitioned- to better myself.

I'm almost 20 months on hrt and I've only kissed one guy and cuddled a bit with another. It's not easy. The only way I could really build interest in a guy is by getting to know him over time and multiple incidents of seeing and being around each other... Otherwise, I have no real interest or desire, but I do fantasize I'll admit...

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

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Stacy

Quote from: Allison S on May 06, 2019, 09:31:16 PM
I don't get being taken like "meat"...
Allison, it was a way to explain that some people have sexual attraction and impose themselves without much respect for the other, to get what they want. They want sex more than anything else. That they don't care much about love or don't see the difference between sex and love. Thank you for sharing how you like the first contacts. Do you expect something from guys in particular? Things like Kylo described. Things that would make you choose a certain type of guy. Or maybe you just care about love, like me? From what you mentioned, you seem like me, you need time with someone to get interest. I can be sexually attracted, but I don't care about sex at this point, I seek love, and I cannot feel love without knowing the other for a while.

Kylo, this is all explaining pretty good the natural ways of choosing a partner. I like girls but I don't see exactly what I expect from them, other than a lot of affection, love and sharing life fun. I feel like if I don't have any subconscious programming, I'm kind of blank except for the protection, but I'm not looking at this, I don't want someone really for this but I guess than yes, I seek protection and stability for having not much myself. But you are right, the logic behind can only be true. I've not the profile...I would be a weak protector, seeking protection myself and I'm surely not a provider, not for now. I'm soft and tender, far from any aggressive profile. It charmed girls in the past, but for now I don't know. I would be a poor male for those things, I guess I'm far better as a female. I'm still affirmative, I believe in equality in a couple so I'm not the kind to let the other decide of everything alone. I think no one like someone with no presence, letting others decide, having no real opinion and not affirming him/herself. On the nature side it surely can be seen as "weak". I see horrible guys in couple to belittle and ridicule their partner, so it seems that nature needs are the top priority for a partner, for a lot of women. I find it extremely frustrating to feel not be valid, that a trashy personality is better than a respectful and loving one.

You said that by transitioning you have seen swapping. You talk about subconscious programming? Expectations and needs swapped? So this programming is mostly hormonal? It surely also societal, we learned "roles" of genders according to how adult life should look like.

You also said that expectations change with age. I remember when I was a teen, girls were simpler. Things were not about having a house, a lot of money, a good job. They were surely still seeking protection, but the main interests I think were the physical appearance, and physical performance (sports and healthy body). Sometimes intelligence more than physical performance depending on the girl personality. Also they had no much life experience, so it was again a reason to not expect much. It was looking more like improvisation. Being adult, the first interest seems to be stability and money, "providing" as you said. So I find it harder to please than in the past. They also have life experience, so they know what they want and don't want, adding other criteria.

Personnaly I don't expect so much, I seek a personality to match mine and dare hoping for an exceptional match. I guess I'm still like in the simple age mentally for this, like I described teens. I see people to be very complicated as adults, more than ever. If I would like men and that I would transition, I could probably more easily find one because my subconscious programming, if I really rely on it, is looking much more female, as you defined the needs. But I like women, so if we both seek the same subconscious things, I don't know how it can work. I cannot say how many of people live as you described but those natural things are surely preponderant. If you don't have what it takes, it seems that the only way to hope finding someone is to proceed with friendship and eventually the balance between your whole personality and natural programming have a chance to fall for the personality. It's my theory. In other words, you may not be having the subconscious needs but your personality worth enough to still be chosen as a partner. Without friendship, you lose the game fast, there is nothing to evaluate you and to attract the other aside the subconscious items that you may not have or partly have.

It seems that it's now more a list of per-requisites than seeking love for what it is. It sounds like shopping. Teens are loving, adults are shopping. Michelle mentioned romance, I really hope it's still exist but adults seem more concerned by practical things.
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Jennifer M

I want to believe in A. Being friendzoned twice told me the world tends toward B.


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Michelle_P

Quote from: Jennifer M on May 07, 2019, 11:48:25 PM
I want to believe in A. Being friendzoned twice told me the world tends toward B.

Yes, similar to my experience.  As someone who needed that romance or emotional connection, and was clueless about the sexual 'passes' that had been made at me, I was resigned to being without a partner the rest of my life.  Simply being myself at last is pretty wonderful, and i was ok with being friend-zoned.

Then I got lucky...
Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath and fire my spirit.

My personal transition path included medical changes.  The path others take may require no medical intervention, or different care.  We each find our own path. I provide these dates for the curious.
Electrolysis - Hours in The Chair: 238 (8.5 were preparing for GCS, five clearings); On estradiol patch June 2016; Full-time Oct 22, 2016; GCS Oct 20, 2017; FFS Aug 28, 2018; Stage 2 labiaplasty revision and BA Feb 26, 2019
Michelle's personal blog and biography
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Victoria L.

I can't disentangle from Way A. My first love happened that way, with an individual who I met and became best friends with. There was absolutely no attraction between us at first. In fact, at first we both would have said "ew. no" at the thought of dating each other. It took nearly two years of a great friendship and coming out to her for me to realize "Oh gosh, I think I love her". The same thing happened for her.

I cannot comprehend any other way to come to love. To me love has foundation in a non-romantic friendship of some level. I can't even imagine loving someone without first being friends. That doesn't even make sense to me.

I'm not actually demisexual (I have sexual attraction without love, I wish that weren't the case, though), but the pattern of those I fall for the most and really want relationships with is much like one (with those individuals sexual attraction forms after falling for their personality), I've found. My therapist told me this is very stereotypical of women.

Nevertheless, I've been single for the last decade, so it's not working out for me very well, now is it?  :laugh: I was single for my entire 20s, save for maybe a week or two in the beginning. *cries* And month five of year 30 is not steering any other direction.
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Stacy

It's a relief to see that I'm not alone to think that love cannot develop if there is no friendship first. So, some people think the world is not working like that, but Virelai, you say your therapist view is that females proceed with friendship first so I hope it's a widespread fact. I can feel sexual attraction but it's certainly not love if I don't know the other at all. I don't understand why some people think that it's love. That's my guest why some people don't seem to distinguish sex and love. Maybe the same people that think we cannot be friend with someone being a potential partner (I mean for example, friendship is not possible between heterosexual male and female). It's like to say "Oh you love her, tell me more about her" and get the answer "I can't, I know nothing about her, but I love her". It's nonsense.

I think it's interesting too that sexual attraction can sometimes only come with knowing the person more. We could think at first that it's not possible (for people not being demisexual).

I remember I had friends, girls, for which I had no real sexual attraction. I mean, it happened that I look at their bodies but it was not an obsession or a rush to look again and again, it was just automatic. And after some time we became familiar and I started to feel a stronger bound and also something else that was more felt as sexual. It was more with the personality, then mixed with the body but more from personality. It's hard to describe but if we have to measure sexual appeal, it was now a real interest compared to the start when it was purely physical and instinctive. I was already feeling being in some intimacy with the other, giving me desire to be closer. Familiarity and our way to interact was like bringing intimacy itself, and sexual desire was more directly linked to her way to be, to react, seen in complementarity with the body. Sometimes we were not compatible so nothing was happening at all. It's where friendship left no feeling of any possible love evolution. I think it's wonderful because whatever happens, nobody get hurt or embarrassed, and it's still very nice to have a friend.

Something else, that is not the same, but it reminds me that long ago I was considering sex like disrespectful, and since I respected the one I love, I wanted to diminish the importance of sex until it comes like a consensual gift, to remove any egoism and vulgarity in it, like if true love was the only way to not belittle the other with sex. I've been used for sex too without real love, reinforcing my opinion that it's "dangerous" out of love context because not only the other doesn't really love you, but see you less than human to just use you. I also played the "replacement partner", more being a plush to comfort than being really loved. Also, I need much more love than sex. Sex is so ephemeral, while love is long term and colorize all the sides of life.

Virelai, I'm alone too since a very long time, I've not much opportunities. Once school is over in life, I find it hard to see people (there are only males at work) plus I'm shy.
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big kim

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Kylo

My own experience of what I "look for" in someone has always been altered by my condition.

When I was a teenager I was aware of an attraction to both genders but a preference for men. However, because I did not feel female, I could not approach them - this would mean behaving in a feminine manner and I couldn't compute that. That's not to say that I didn't get approached - I did, quite a bit. But I always turned them down. Agreeing to be in a relationship with a male who was most often straight I intrinsically knew would mean I would have to accept a variety of female roles I didn't know how (or want) to play. As a result I never got involved with anyone until my 20s and I've never been involved with someone I wasn't already well acquainted with as a friend already.

The female role in a straight relationship was one I was - I assume - supposed to play, but to my knowledge I never actively played it in any voluntary sense. I just behaved like myself. My body excused everything else, people will assume you are just a tomboy or a more assertive kind of female, you don't have to take on any explicitly female roles in today's Western world to be with someone. Which was what I did. All was fine and good with that, until I transitioned of course.

But because of, maybe, some inherent and subconscious insecurity about how awkward and precarious my position was, I admit I am cautious and untrusting of people. I don't get into relationships easily and when I do it still takes years before I will let my guard down. I would never "just date" someone. I prioritized trustworthiness and friendship qualities over other qualities. And even then, I always, even now, have a contingency plan if it all goes pear shaped of being able to fend for myself. Of not being emotionally dependent on somebody, because that can be taken away. (Watching my parents' failed marriage is probably responsible for that, though).

I realize now that the sort of people I get into relationships with are ones that aren't dominant over me. I was never good with the idea of a dominant man. You find this crops up a bit in gay male circles too.... the attraction to a man who may look dominant, etc. which conflicts with the (male) internal resentment at being submissive to any other man. Gay guys liking men taller than themselves, for example, but also secretly resenting the fact those men are taller than you. Does happen. For me, I've had relationships with guys who most women would find too small or too passive, for sure. And that's because I'm not really looking for what the average woman tends to look for in a man. I'm not looking for a man to be larger than me to protect me, for example. For many women, that's a major consideration in a long term or marriage partner. For me, not at all, I'd rather he be a great conversationalist or smart and interesting than strong. I also can't accept anyone who wants to lord it over me - simply wouldn't work. I can accept equality and mutual respect in a relationship, but not someone who's going to butt heads with me on everything and consider himself superior. Again I think it's my internal male-like tendencies. I seek harmony with another dude, but if he's going to fight me then I won't back down and that makes for an awful relationship. I do have a slightly dominant personality, so that only works in close proximity with people who respect personal space, or else are fine with someone who is assertive. I've never looked at a partner's income or what he brings to the table in terms of capital, which many women do. I am genuinely interested in what a person can do to enrich my experience mentally in life rather than what he can physically provide.

This is generally at odds with the average male-female dynamic.

The only way I seem able to operate to ever "let someone in" is if I know them as a friend enough to figure out if they are a threat or no and if they have a compatible personality. As you say, I would much rather spend my time with a friend than date the hottest dude on the planet if he has the personality of a housefly. Personality is so important for my temperament. So yeah, I agree with you on many points, and I know that had I been born without the trans condition, I would most likely not have the same trepidations and filters around relationships that I do. I do still have that female-mode desire toward certain male characteristics in operation in the back of my mind, but it is overridden mostly by the male-like personality I have and the need to make sure I don't get screwed over or rejected. At this point I am sure now that my extreme caution toward "vetting people" for so long before every getting close to them and even being cautious when in a long term relationship is caused by the fact that I know, subconsciously, I have qualities that many people will reject, either because they are masculine, or because being trans is, sadly, a deal-breaker for so many average people. It does immediately conflict with the male-female subconscious wiring when it comes to sexual matters when you confront someone with it. Completely knocks them for six, and no wonder... that's millions of years of biological instincts and programming in both us and the partners, being "re-arranged" in a manner it's hard to wrap your head around. And people always seem to side with or feel sympathy for the non-trans partner in these situations, meaning it's just too much for most to deal with or understand.

Anyway, my post was meant as a way of addressing why people tend to behave in an average sort of way. We are not average people, in the statistical sense... we are relatively rare, and don't always behave in an average way, or have average requirements in a partner. I can understand why most people behave a certain way without thinking about why they do - instincts, subconscious tendencies, evolution mainly, which is where we get our social mores from and our stereotypes from. We though, are a bit different, sometimes having dual sets of instincts or tendencies because we have brain and body hailing from both sexes respectively, to begin with. I know I understand why women want a certain kind of man, due to certain instincts about my size and so on... and yet at the same time I'm programmed much more like a man in terms of how I would approach another man, i.e. as a friend, and made sure he was not a foe or a rival, or in any way able to subjugate me or cut off an escape route should I ever require it. It's the sort of thing men would keep in the back of their minds when dealing with other men as well. It's so convoluted that it took a while to unravel why I did the things I did, but there's lots of dual things going on in there, with personality and the toll/vulnerability of this condition taking precedence over instinct.   

Life would be much simpler if I were just a cis woman, lol. But I am what I am, and what I am is a careful and cautious strategist. Women are great strategists too in the dating game. I'm quite grateful for being as careful as they tend to be due to my origins. A lot of men land themselves in trouble romantically because they fail to be cautious. I've never made that mistake. 
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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Allie Jayne

Ahh, Love. There are literally hundreds of definitions for Love, proving that it is an intangible entity that means different things to different people. And, as mentioned, that can and does change with age and circumstance. Generally Love is when you put someone ahead of yourself, though some only love themselves. It might be seen that love is related to needs. A teen girl might need a great looking guy for her self esteem. Later, she needs a guy to give her babies and support, then later still, she needs a companion to grow old with. These may involve 3 or more different people!

Women tend to form emotional attachments easier, but I think there is truth in the saying 'To Know is to Love". There are a myriad of reasons why a woman might fall in love, but getting to know someone would be key to all of them. In psychology, there are 7 types of love https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hide-and-seek/201606/these-are-the-7-types-love

Now 'Lover" has another bunch of definitions, most sexually based and in which actual love may not be involved!

Personally, I need to know someone, and then there can be that mystical click that I can't explain, before I would love them. 

Allie
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