Lip service

[Padma]

I've been out as non-gendered for a while now, but I've noticed that the people I've been out to, who initially were very supportive, seem mostly to be drifting towards binarising me again. It's tiring.

[Jennygirl]

I've been out as non-gendered for a while now, but I've noticed that the people I've been out to, who initially were very supportive, seem mostly to be drifting towards binarising me again. It's tiring.

I have read many times about people having frustrations with this. Seems to me like society has made progress lately with trans acceptance, but in a binary fashion. I would imagine (or hope, really) that non-binary is soon to come.. if not right in line with it.

What is it you're having trouble with? Pronouns? Those can be especially hard for people. I have heard some of my cis friends (who have nailed the support zone and pronouns with my transition since day 0) speak frustratingly of how hard it is to remember pronouns of their non-binary roommate of 4 years. It definitely seems like a difficult part for some.

The best thing any of us can do to deal with support troubles is to become clear communicators of what we want. Sometimes people just don't know how much something might bug you, so they just keep doing that thing. In that case, they'll never know unless we constructively correct them with friendly and regular reminders of what matters to us.

Hopefully I didn't just totally miss the point! Not sure if they are actually being negatively supportive- that would be way different and much worse!

[Taka]

ally yourself with those swedish feminists?
they've actually managed to make a gender neutral pronoun widely accepted in sweden.
they do it by actively protesting against norms that don't serve any good purpose in a modern society.

nice to see you again, padma!
been a while.

[suzifrommd]

Padma, humans are wired to gender people. The procreation of the species and selection of mates with which we can reproduce unfortunately depends upon it. We can overcome our wiring but it takes constant vigilance. It's a lot to expect that people will be able consistently transcend our inborn tendencies.

Is it enough for them to know intellectually that you are non binary, or are you looking for them actively to avoid gendering you as a binary (and all that implies)?

[Dee Marshall]

I think part of what makes gender neutral pronouns difficult in English is that there are so many sets. There's no one accepted set of them which means people have to remember words they're not familiar with, potentially remember who prefers which, etc. Wikipedia lists 16 ways of doing it and I've seen others written that they don't document. Doesn't mean they shouldn't make the effort.

[Taka]

the set that journalists use will win.
gendered pronouns are so difficult to use, i sometimes hate them.
they make it impossible to translate from languages that only have gender neutral pronouns or use gender specific pronouns only rarely.

feminists are very good allies, they know how to make change happen.
unfortunately, norwegian/danish culture hate conflicts, so many fights are rather avoided than taken.

[Mark3]

I notice it too..

I think its just laziness sometimes, and yeah, human nature to genderize people..
I don't really mind though, because they know who I really am. When I came out I was in everybody's face, so no ones forgotten. I think they consider me more well rounded now, if that makes sense, I think some friends think I can see things in a broader way, seeing through the eyes of both genders sometimes..

It really doesn't bother me as long as they're hearts in the right place, and they mean no harm.

I mean this in a much broader way than this one topic, but I think many times we need to have a thicker skin, and not let as many things bother us....?

[Dread_Faery]

Sorry, no one should have to grow thicker skin just to make someone's life a fraction less challenging.

[Taka]

no one would need to grow thicker skin if pronouns were simply used as pronouns.
i would have no problem with gendered pronouns if they held no more meaning than referring to a person who kind of looks like the pronoun's gender.

but the way some use them, they become chains and weapons, created to hurt, invalidate, and keep others away from the happiness of blossoming into their true beautiful selves.

[Dread_Faery]

Words are weapons wielded by those with the power, and when you dare speak up and demand to be treated humanely, you get derided for being too sensitive and told that "sticks and stones may break your bones, but words will never hurt you". And it's lies all lies.

You deserve to be treated and refered to in a way that makes you feel comfortable, but you also need to take time for self care, which is a radical protest when enby bodies are considered to deviate from a binary norm.

[Mark3]

Sheeez... Lighten up....

I just don't let it bother me..
Most use he/him to me, and 1-2 use her/she almost always.? I don't care.. I'm not going to get in they're face and correct anyone, and insist the call me whatever.? It doesn't bother me, in fact it makes me chuckle sometimes to myself..

Life's too short, and I want to be a positive upbeat person, I have no time to get upset if someone uses a wrong word..

Its my choice whether something bothers me or not, and I choose not
To let it..

[Shantel]

Sheeez... Lighten up....

I just don't let it bother me..
Most use he/him to me, and 1-2 use her/she almost always.? I don't care.. I'm not going to get in they're face and correct anyone, and insist the call me whatever.? It doesn't bother me, in fact it makes me chuckle sometimes to myself..

Life's too short, and I want to be a positive upbeat person, I have no time to get upset if someone uses a wrong word..

Its my choice whether something bothers me or not, and I choose not
To let it..

I aspire to the thicker skin plan, personally I don't get insulted by other people's ignorance concerning myself, it's not their fault and frankly it's incumbent on me to politely let them know what would be more appropriate. As for any naked aggressiveness, I prefer to ignore that as if those types don't exist. Anyone getting physically aggressive will get stabbed in self defense. Life is good and we needn't make it more complicated for ourselves by getting all worked up over this kind of stuff.

[Taka]

those who have a naturally thick skin won't be bothered.
those who have severe dysphoria combined with other stuff don't always habe the excess energy to build thicker skin, and it's so much more energy consuming when the skin is already worn too thin to be of much protection.

i don't care much what people call me or what boxes they try to put me in.
my best protest is simply being me.
but i'll still speak up for those who habe harder days and hurt more than what i do.
it's not a human right to be nasty with vulnerable people.
it's not a human right to hurt the less privileged.
but it is a human right to not be willfully invalidated, hurt, or even harmed by otjers, simply for being oneself.

[Satinjoy]

Hi Parma, nice to see you.

My coworkers are confused by these boots and nails and little boobs.

I love it. 

Blessings

Satinjoy

[Satinjoy]

Padma not Parma.  Stupid cell phones, argh

[Asche]

I'm afraid this one touched a nerve, because it's an attitude I encounter all over the place.

I think its just laziness sometimes, and yeah, human nature to genderize people..

It's "human nature" to use the racist and sexist slurs that we hear all the time, too.  (Thanks, Rush Limbaugh & Co. )  It's "laziness" and "human nature" to throw your garbage out the car window.  It's "laziness" and "human nature" to only hire people who are of the same race, sex, social class, region, and educational background as you.

Doesn't make it okay.

I notice that the poor and the powerless are always told that their "laziness" is to blame for their being poor and/or powerless, whereas laziness on the part of the privileged is seen as endearing.  So I'm not willing to give "laziness" a pass, either.

I don't really mind though, because they know who I really am.

If they know who you are and that you don't like being referred to or addressed in some particular way, but keep on doing it, what does that say about them?

My brother grew up being called by his middle name (he has the same name as our father, so this was to disambiguate them.)  Once he moved out of the house, he started asking us to call him by his first name.  It took conscious effort and lots of practice, but I did it.  Because it wasn't much of an imposition on me and it was important to him.  That's called basic respect.

... I think many times we need to have a thicker skin, and not let as many things bother us....?

That's easy to say about something that doesn't bother you, but bothers someone else.  Or something that only rarely happens to you, but frequently happens to someone else.

There's also the fact that even small hurts, ones that you might be able to ignore if they happen rarely, can wear you down if you're constantly suffering them, day after day.  One grain of sand won't hurt you, but enough of them can bury you.  See microagressions

[Satinjoy]

Thicker skin.  Not on this much estrogen, no baby, not thick anymore.  Sensitive emotionally, physically.

I am willing to bet with the younger generation new pronouns surface, first as slang and then as accepted norms, and we wont deal with some of the stuff we who have been around for a while on the planet have suffered through.

I enjoy this new automatic response:  The other day, someone who is homophobic commented depreciatingly on my boots.  I called them either honey or dear - yeah thats it - and they fled.  Another one said something about gay boy in the office and i said "be careful, sweatheart, be very careful what you say."

Uncharacteristic, unnerving to them, and very delicious for Satinjoy to finally stand up for h'erself, albeit still stealthy genderqueer.  Or maybe not so stealthy.

Appropriate to say.... nails out hair down.... loving it.

[Taka]

well look at that... there seems to be more fight in satinjoy than you knew she was capable of.
the peaceful approach, calling people sweet and dear, is a very elegant one.
it's difficult to answer love with hate, so those who had not too well thought out ill intent will usually flee.

i don't have a satiny woman inside me though. i really wish i did, would make things easier for me.
i do have a thick skin, derogatories and microaggressions don't bother me much. unless they come from family, and that's unfortunately where i get most verbal abuse pr harassment or whatever, really.

[Padma]

What I was getting at is that people who were (apparently) happily using neutral words for me have slowly drifted back towards gendering me again - I guess because there's still a really strong cultural gravitational pull towards that. I find it uncomfortable being gendered by people, and especially by people who'd initially happily stopped doing so. All I have to do is remind them and they get back into it again, but it's tiring having to swim upstream against the genderriver. I find navigating that all the time tiring - gender just seems like such an obvious story to me these days, it's like listening to people talk about their religion when I don't share their beliefs. I will be respectful, but I won't compromise myself in the process.

And speaking as someone living with PTSS, it's pretty irrelevant to be told to feel differently from the way I feel, or to have a thicker skin. I do what I can do, but in general, stuff that sets off my hypervigilance keeps doing that.