Testosterone, Emotional Stability, Dysphoria & Being Non-Binary

[EchelonHunt]

Hello everyone,

For those who don't know, I have been on testosterone for roughly four years. I went into it believing I would enjoy all the effects because I had accepted my identity as a male without realizing I could exist between or outside of the binary. When I began questioning my male identity and my views of gender roles after a toxic 4 year relationship ended, I came to the realization that I did not care for gender roles at all (especially those my ex forced onto me) and I found myself struggling to identify as male. I felt genderless and still do now. Since this realization, I have struggled with the reality of my voice. It has deepened over the four years on T and I have been seeing a voice therapist to help me shift it to a more gender neutral range.

Not only that, I shave frequently as I do not enjoy the feeling of rough sharp hair digging into my neck when I tilt my head down or my stomach hair moving under my clothing. I am finding I am more angry lately, more easily snapping at others and just being generally grumpy, more-so than usual. Aside from the spike in aggression, my moods are stable, I am calm and collected, way less introverted than before. The body odor and especially the urine smell has been bothering me ever since I have become aware of it. It is a very strong smell, undeniably male.

I would like to go off T.  However, pre-T, I had dealt with premenstrual dysphoric disorder that went for many years untreated because doctors dismissed my severe symptoms as "normal PMS". This meant violent mood swings, depression and suicidal thoughts every three weeks, accumulating up to the days before my period begins. I am not sure if I am ready to go back to that cycle... which is why I originally wanted to stay on T or a low-dose T until I will be able to have my uterus removed, then go off and hopefully resume my body's original hormone production of estrogen without the disorder hindering my ability to function in society.

I miss my feminine features, the soft round face, my smooth skin, the soft body hair that was subtle. Testosterone heightened my appetite and in turn, my once-controlled emotional eating spiraled out of control over the course of four years that I rapidly regained the 55lbs that I originally lost pre-T to get onto T in the first place *laughs* Horrible self-control, I accept complete responsibility for it and do not blame testosterone in any way. Despite the weight regain, I am fairly fit, I am able to walk long distances without getting out of breath whereas before, even minimal walking would leave me panting. As you can see, there are effects of testosterone I enjoy (e.g. emotional stability, extra energy, no PMDD & no periods) and of course a whole slew of effects that I do not enjoy as much, specified above.

I wonder, what is the emotional stability that testosterone causes...? Is it a shift in personality or is it the mind maturing from life experiences rather than the testosterone? Would it be possible to find out what sort of chemical reaction in my brain or nervous system that is being stimulated by testosterone? I noticed the calming effect was very similar to being on anti-depressants but instead, it felt more natural and there was no "zombie" numbing effect that follows with being on anti-depressants that I have been on in the past. The emotional stability aspect of testosterone conflicting with my dysphoria of the secondary sexual characteristics blooming on my body is a struggle to say the least. Do I give up emotional stability in order to nip the dysphoria in the bud or do I risk dysphoria ravaging within me like an angry beast while still maintaining my stable state?

Sort of open topic, feel free to discuss... what do you think? Has anyone ever been in a similar situation? Any thoughts, advice or suggestions?

Kind regards,

Jacey

[JourneyFromConfusion]

Gender roles don't equal gender identity. You can be a feminine man or a masculine woman. Any time someone says they went into T or E thinking they'd love all the effects, I have to wonder what your doctor told you would happen? What about the medical risks? Nonetheless, before going completely off T, talk to your endocrinologist about putting you on a very low dosage to keep your levels somewhat steady. Then begin working with a gender therapist about your emotions.

How do you picture your BODY? Do you see yourself as male, female, or neutrois? That's the thing you need to answer and many times, we don't see the importance of this. I hate the analogy of "picture yoruself in the future" because I simply cannot. I don't know if I'll want to be what I'm going to school for in the far future so how should I know if I want children and how I want to age? Emotional Stability on T isn't the testosterone itself moreso than you finally not feeling at odds with yourself. the same can be equated for weight loss. Exercise doesn't necessarily cause your mental stability with your weight-it's you knowing you're working toward a better self more than anything (though there is science behind the healthiness of exercise in general)

I'm not far on T so I cannot really help with this emotional stability, but I strongly recommend you talking to a therapist and working everything out before making any big decisions. I wish you the best of luck.

[ErinWDK]

The effect T can have on you varies from person to person.  My doctor had me on T for a good while.  By the end of that I was not able to walk one quarter mile without being out of breath.  It also did not stabilize my moods any little bit - if anything, with that caustic stuff in my body I was prone to random outbursts of senseless rage.  Based on my experiance I would say get away from T as fast as possible - but then I am not you.

This is something to discuss with a good Endo - one that will work with you to help you reach your goals.

I wish you the best possible luck in getting that professional help.


Erin

[Taka]

hormones affect moods and mental well-being. too much or too little will cause trouble, and the most easily acceptable proof of this is how vitamine d deficiency is one of the most common medical reasons for often quite severe depression. a little bit of fish oil each day, containing that hormone, can cure a whole many cases of depression that is not caused by stress or trauma or other psychological causes. vitamin d supplements can also make other forms of depression more manageable.

i see no reason to believe that things are different with sex hormones. what matches brain structure will feel good, anything else will feel bad. this doesn't mean that feeling better on opposite sex hormones is proof of your internal gender being in line with the opposite sex. validation or invalidation should never be based on chemicals alone. there are receptors for sex hormones in the brain, but there is no certainty that the number is equivalent to a person's experienced gender. other than maybe for transsexual people. but research needs to be done before any real theories can be made.

still, the mental stability you experience might not be due to the testosterone itself. other possible reasons are lower estrogen or stabile hormone levels (as opposed to cyclic levels), or just that you don't have to fear the suicidality and other stuff that comes with pms. if you haven't yet, it might be worth trying to experiment with lowering t doses to get your levels toward the bottom of wjat can be considered safe, and see if the stability prevails. another type of t dosage that is connsidered kind of safe is extremely low, for treating pms in women. balancing estrogen with more androgen seems to help some.

if pms was that much of a problem for you, it can't really easily be advised that you go off t completely. it could come back worse than ever, just like i never even knew what pms was before having messed up my natural hormone production with birth control and pregnancy. it could go the other way too of course, that's something you won't know until you try. but i think you really should first discuss with your doctors if you can get the surgeries you want/need without sticking with the ftm narrative or treatment regimen.

[Satinjoy]

Be careful dear.

You know what the swing did to me, for estrogen and the mtf, the reduction can be hell.  Not sure with t, I am not compatible with it mentally.

Warmest regards

Satinjoy

[EchelonHunt]

Thank you for your responses everyone

I picture my body as sexless, androgynous and/or neutrois. Take your pick ! Basically pre-pubescent in appearance, flat chest, minimal preferably no body hair/facial hair... my ideal body shape would be slim and androgynous. Right now I am excessively overweight - my body is less than ideal but am slowly working towards eating healthy and getting regular exercise everyday. I am hoping by top surgery mid 2015, that I will have the ideal body shape I desire. 

Talking to my psychiatrist (who is also doubles as my gender therapist) is ... tricky, to say the least. There is nothing in the Benjamin SOC that allows a non-binary individual to pursue bottom surgery - that is strictly for binary transgender folks. As much as I would like to discuss my non-binary identity to my psychiatrist, I do not want my bottom surgery options taken away from me the moment I come out as non-binary.

However, I understand discussing lowering the T dose shouldn't have anything to do with coming out as non-binary but my psychiatrist is going to be curious behind the reasons why...

I used to identify as a feminine male but my psychiatrist has the impression I view myself as a cisgender guy despite being in a female body. Let me explain the process he did for me to gain HRT...

He would ask me a series of questions, have me outline the effects of HRT... he asked me if I desired the effects of HRT...

If I expressed dislike of facial hair, he would delay HRT, he would see me in three months to ask the same series of questions again...

I figured out, I had to say yes, that I had to acknowledge and accept all the effects, both good and bad, in order to gain HRT.

Once I said yes to all the questions, he proceeded to write me a letter for HRT.

So that is why I went into HRT believing I would desire all the effects because that is what I was driven to believe...? Not sure if I am writing that incorrectly...

He has treated non-binary patients in the past though, that is what I have heard from word of mouth. 

The thing that bothers me about having gone on HRT in the first place is that both the psychiatrist and endocrinologist said that once I go on T, I have to stay on it for the rest of my life.

I though that was odd because I was under the impression that if you didn't like the effects of HRT or felt they were coming on too quick for one to adjust to, that you would be allowed to have the option of going off them or switching to a low dose to have time to adjust...? The problem is my psychiatrist is the only one in the area that is the "go-to" person for letters for HRT and surgery, so it would be impossible for me to find somebody else ... although there is a non-binary friendly psychiatrist in the area but I have no clue if she able to write letters for HRT/surgery or not.

Very mixed feelings... I feel tempted to book a session with the non-binary psychiatrist...

[helen2010]

EH

It appears that endos differ in their attitude to hrt.  While I am MAAB my endo worked with me to find a point of balance, the point of equilibrium where dysphoria ceased, emotions were enriched and physical changes minimised.

I kept  a log of my dosage and its impact.  By working with the endo I was able to find the best therapeutic dosage given my non binary identity.

It seems that you could take a similar approach if your endo was supportive.  However it may be that your medical system or perhaps just your current endo wears binary lenses so this option may not be open to you.

Re your other question.  There is always the option of ceasing T.  This may achieve a better outcome but in some ways you may be heading back to where you started.  Unfortunately you may be faced with, given the system and your current endo, being forced to take a binary decision rather than to seek a non binary outcome via a lower dose hrt regimen unless you can find a more suitable endo.

Safe travels

Aisla

[Taka]

just ask that other psychiatrist. asking usually never hurts (though the answer can).

the endo sounds a bit weird. going off hrt shouldn't be too much of a problem if your body can still produce sex hormones.
are there any others in the area?

[JulieBlair]

Have you ever wanted to join a conversation, but felt both awkward, and unsure?  I'm there now. 

My experience with testosterone was mindbogglingly bad, but I lived on the stuff for 58 years.  That's the part that makes it awkward. Dosage is part of it, and lowering T may allow estrogen to express a bit more, but here is the unsure part.  A lady I care for once had fibroid tumors and her symptoms were similar to yours on estrogen.  She was put on birth control pills or some derivative of them which suppressed her period and provided some relief until some other issues were resolved and she could have surgery to remove the growths, and ultimately had a hysterectomy. 

The point is, might low dose T and period suppression in combination be something worth considering?  Or possibly even discontinuing T for a while, in combination with period suppression?  So far outside my knowledge and comfort zone it isn't funny, but I wonder??  Worth a chat with the doc I suppose.

Peace,
Julie

[EchelonHunt]

Aisla, I have found I was most comfortable on the three-weekly dose, as the effects came on more slowly, only the "dip" in energy levels was the minor downside. Back then, a huge part of me was impatient with the slow effects because I was still riding my misguided high of finally reaching that point in transition as a "male"... and it was only when I realized I was non-binary and being on the three-monthly dose, the upside was the "dip" in levels evened out but the effects came in faster and more evident than before. I am more than happy to deal with the "dip" in levels on the low-dose, honestly, I rarely noticed it but it certainly came up in the blood-works. At this point in time, a low-dose would be more beneficial to me than a normal dose.

Taka, my endo appears to be very understanding (despite some of the things he says), I had asked him a few months ago if it would be possible to go on a low-dose of T and he didn't outright reject the idea, he just suggested I talk to my psychiatrist about it. I assumed it would likely be possible, just my psychiatrist would have to write a letter for him to allow him to adjust it to a low-dose. I have emailed that psychiatrist and hopefully I hear back soon, she has been very kind for answering my questions via email as I cannot use the phone, due to being hearing impaired.

I think the endo may have said that because the effects of HRT are permanent? When they said that, I assumed it meant my ovaries would probably cease to function, even if I went off T on a later date but then again, I have witnessed many individuals online having gotten off T after a certain amount of time and their body simply adjusted back to normal. Despite that comment the endo made, he is   

JulieBlair, please don't feel awkward or unsure

I don't have fibroid tumors, at least, my x-rays of my female reproductive parts have shown to be normal I am, in fact, due to go for another yearly ultrasound in November.

I have attempted the birth control pill to skip my periods pre-HRT but I still experienced mood swings and long story short, had a very close mental breakdown in tears of, "I wish I wasn't born a girl." to the point my mother insisted I stop skipping my period because she was tired of me crying about my body!! I have been looking into other methods though, the Mirena IUD for example. The thought of discontinuing T gives me a chill, both excitement and a little fear of the unknown... I have been finding I associate the physical effects of T similar to transwomen which feels like the biggest red flag to me even if I don't identify as a female.

[Satinjoy]

I feel fairly useless here, love the avatar, want the outfit...

Low dose slow reduction sounds good but I know little except it seems to make sense.

I wonder how many nb shrinks and endos are out there.  We seem kinda rare.

Blessings

Satinjoy

[Jak]

Just wanted to add that there are quite a few youtube vids out there by FTMs who have gone on and off or on/off/on/off T. You might want to check some of those out if you haven't already. I've also read a lot of posts in various blogs, etc. about the changes that remain (e.g., voice) v. changes that will disappear (e.g., musculature). From what I've seen, there are plenty of endos, etc. who have no trouble with folks deciding to lower their dose or go off T altogether. That doesn't speak to the other concerns re the reproductive system, etc., of course. Good luck in your journey!

[EchelonHunt]

SJ, don't feel useless *hugs*

Thanks Jak I have seen the videos and they were very helpful.

Update:

Trigger Warning: Dysphoria & dealing with feelings of regrets

My dysphoria over body hair is increasing more and more lately, for example, I shaved at 9pm and in less than 6 hours, hair already started growing back in. It was really depressing. Thinking about budgeting my money and seeing if I can get some electrolysis treatments and still manage to save up for top surgery...! Voice therapy has been going steadily, have been training my voice as best as I can. I keep desiring a feminine voice, day-dreaming of getting VFS surgery done at Yeson and again, it spikes the dysphoria and more importantly, the regret... I wish I had figured out I was non-binary before I went on T. I wish the SOC had been modified earlier, I wish I had the option of getting top surgery without hormones... but at the time, it was before the SOC was modified and I was told T was a "requirement" for top surgery...

I do not blame the doctors or the SOC...  I made my decision and whatever regrets I feel afterwards from the effects of T, the responsibility and blame falls on my shoulders.

My endocrinologist has his hands tied behind his back. He cannot put me on a low dose or off T entirely unless I speak to my psychiatrist about it beforehand, then the psychiatrist can write him a letter giving him permission to adjust the doses or take me off them. I'm not sure if this is normal in other states but it seems to be how they conduct themselves where I live. I see my Endo next wednesday and I will need to book a visit to my psychiatrist and hopefully in 3 months (the next time I see my Endo) I will be able to be on a low-dose or go off completely. I get sick with anxiety just thinking about it. Part of me is thrilled because it means it will be halting anymore new facial/body hair from growing in but on the other hand, T has made me more emotionally stable... whereas I was a walking train-wreck on estrogen. It feels more likely that low-dose T would be a safe route to try first before deciding to go off it entirely.

I have been experiencing aggression lately, it has been unsettling because I do not enjoy snapping at my parents every moment of the day - I am not sure if my aggression is due to hormones or my anger at my experiences of regret or the dysphoria I feel towards my facial/body hair/deepened voice.

I also noticed wearing knee high boots, my calves are too large for them to properly fit. I know my calves have grown massively since beginning T, most likely due to the new muscles in my legs. It crushed me but many of my female (and male) friends on FB reassured me that they have the same problem too, as their calves are large as well. Searching even more online, it appears to be that knee-high boots are made with skinny folks in mind... which makes sense...!

In better news, I have started calorie counting to lose weight and so far lost 3kg over the last few days... then again, not sure if it was also because of the cold I caught... which also hinders my ability to train my voice, argh! But glad to be in the double digits again...! 99kg, woohoo!

[Satinjoy]

I hate body hair too, it's like you got a double transition going.  Hormonal anger... like I don't know that one...

I lost thirty five pounds while I had t, so you have an advantage there before pulling the dose back.  Aisla knows the hair management inside out...

I still feel a strong parallel to you but like in a mirror.

I think you are doing this right, jayce.

Blessings

Satinjoy