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Voice Feminization Surgery With Dr Haben

Started by Eva, November 14, 2014, 01:53:17 PM

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Eva

Anjaq, Dr Haben told me he uses a dissolvable stitch that should be gone after 3 months... I cant see how anything could tear once its fully healed ???
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Eva

Quote from: Eva on March 16, 2015, 11:04:34 AM
Hi Im OK and Im getting by fine with my voice  ;) From what I gather from my recordings and analysis I did gain 70-75hz at 4 months post op 8) The problem for me is I started at 100hz so my voice is still more androgynous than feminine... This recording seems centered at about 170-175hz... I feel like since having this surgery the muscles I used to use to get my trained voice and control resonance have gotten lazy because I dont have to use them with so much intensity...

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Cd31AiHQud

For reference, my old voice.... I used to have to do a lot of practice and a lot of effort to get this voice... Its effortless now ;) 8)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0zL3oSchaQn

I just wanted to add Im sure it would be a little better if I wouldn't have started smoking again for the last 2 weeks  ::)  I really need to quit again :( ;)
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anjaq

Tsts - why would you actually want to start smoking again after you managed to get rid of that voice destructive habit :P

I dont really know if dissolvable stitches are in any way not so good as permanent ones. Dr Kim explained to me that a main feature of the permanent ones seems to be that he can make the sutures tighter and secure the knots better. Apparently they are not supposed to take any of the strain using the voice puts on the suture area in the long run. So I dont really know - maybe they also stabilize the commissure, but I cannot say for sure. If the stitches dissolve only after 3 months , I guess that is ok. If they would dissolve earlier than 2 months I would be a bit careful, because in that time the scar tissue is still forming and should not expand but still be kept small by the sutures still in place.

Your vocal range is still rather restricted - do you know why? Did you also get Botox or is this just something you have to expand now again with voice therapy? Or is it simply that the healing takes more time? Dr Kim said to me it will kare 4 months until I gain my pitch and then up to a year for the voice to get back to its volume and pitch range and all of that. So apparently it just takes a long time and the healing duration seems very comparable (Dr Haben and Dr Kim that is)

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Eva

Well for my first time ever quitting in 31 years I think going more than 4 months cold turkey is pretty good.... I donno I do enjoy it I guess but Im not happy I started again :(

Again I never had a Botox anything, just a web done along with "laser thinning" that was just supposed to ad a breathy quality to my voice and its subtle but I think it has... Id also think reducing the mass would increase pitch a little but who knows  ??? As far as limited range??? Well I never had much up there to begin with.... My understanding is the Web Glottoplasty does little to raise absolute pitch because it shortens rather than stretching the vocal cords.... Its just supposed to raise your fundamental frequency I gather... Its done some to cut off lower frequencies but nothing to increase my upper frequencies, just raised my comfortable pitch about 75hz as promised... Im sure voice training and therapy could only help but there is none to be found here... Like I said I also feel like any conditioning I may have had before from using so much effort to control my voice isnt there anymore either because there is no more effort to speak at the same frequency as my old trained voice... I dont practice it at all anymore and I used to do that a lot ;) I can hear an improvement for sure in my before after recordings, I just want more but Im afraid of screwing things up :-\

So Im happy with it for sure but perhaps disappointed I didnt see more increase .)
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anjaq

But 75 sounds like a good improvement. I have already made my first appointment at a speech therapist for when the 2 months are over. I actually like it there. its fun. Probably more than those 5xdaily voice exercises from Dr Kim. This is going to be annoying but supposedly they really improve the voice, pitch range an resonance...

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Eva

Id love to see the specifics on Yeson's voice exercises ??? I never did any "exercises" to increase pitch aside from talking in my highest falsetto and then lowering it a bit to get my mixed voice...  I did learn how to control my muscles and always speak with my adams apple raised up with the same muscles I use to swallow....  I can definitely get a 2-3 notes higher and around 200hz if I do that but its very tiring, sounds and feels forced and the whole point of this to me was to make talking in the female range easier if not effortless... But Dr Haben also points out that voice therapy and training is necessary to be perceived as female surgery or not... There is just nothing to be found here in rural SD USA... I have no idea where to start on my own there but Id consider it for sure over doing more surgery I may not need :-\
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ImagineKate

The exercises are on the website I believe.
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anjaq

Some of the exercises are on the Yeson website as video. I can also send you a copy of the two page instructions I received. Mainly it seem to be singers exercises - lip trills, glissando, resonance exercises - relaxation, pitch range expansion, airflow, ... some of them I already knew from voice rehab.

Dr Kim specifically said not to use that dort of deliberately increase in pitch after his surgery as it would end up too high and forced. I am not sure about the whole resonance issue - in a way that still has to be done, but apparently not too much by lifting up the larynx ( or the "adams apple") so much.

Quote from: Eva on March 17, 2015, 10:04:11 AM
But Dr Haben also points out that voice therapy and training is necessary to be perceived as female surgery or not... There is just nothing to be found here in rural SD USA... I have no idea where to start on my own there but Id consider it for sure over doing more surgery I may not need :-\
I dont think more surgery can solve everything. It is a voice supportive surgery, not really a voice feminization in the sense that it could cure all issues with the voice. It was said some dozend times here and by the surgeons - you need voice training in any case, just with surgery there is less that has to be done and it should be easier. Maybe you can get some voice therapists who do Skype sessions. Also  - you do not necessarily have to find a transgender voice therapist - just any voice therapist who can do voice rehabilitation should do for many issues. After all they also have to deal with women who want to improve their voices to be clearer and more feminine maybe even.

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Eva

Well I find that to really sound good its not really a matter of controlling resonance but controlling breathing, prosody and trying to speak clearly instead of slurring my words ... Believe it or not it was my Mom who pointed out to me that if I just speak softly without trying to force it it sounds very good ;) She pointed out that women usually speak softly, at least she does anyway.... That was a big help, I have a hard time sounding good if I have to be loud or if Im excited about something :-\ It still seems weak sometimes and I can only hope I still have some healing to go and things strengthen... Thats my fear with the CTA, ending up even more monotone and with an even weaker voice even if its higher pitched...

Anjaq Id be very interested in a copy of Dr Kims voice exercises, if you can post them here that would be great, if not please PM my for my email address ;)  Like I said Im clueless and I have no idea what the heck a "lip trill" is :-\ It sounds like its just maybe exercising the cords and using all your upper range just making sounds and not necessary speaking and possibly expanding it through conditioning ???

I'll look on Yeson's site for the video mentioned... I know of no speech therapy around here at all but even if there is Id be interested in trying some things myself first  ;) 
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anjaq

Yes definitely prosody and all the other things you mentioned are very much important.

I was afraid of CTA as well, which is why I never really considered it an option. Using the pitch range in speaking is a very feminine trait. CTA seems to not really make that easier. Without CTA it seems to be mainly an issue of getting used to it and training the muscles and the brain to use different pitches. When I started voice rehab, I could go up to the "break" at around 300-something Hz and then I sprang into falsetto and that went up a bit. With voice rehab, just doing the airflow liptrill exercises I managed to go more easily over the break and to increase my upper range so much that my voice therapist kind of is at her limit as well in makting sounds in that pitch. That was really amazing. And a lot of it is about actually letting go and relax. I am not sure if the exercises are made to be public, so I dont really want to post them. I will write you a message though. But check out the videos and you can look on youtube for lip trills, glissandos (in combination is possible).

Speech therapy is fun and there seem to be a lot of them around. many dealing a lot with old people, people who had some other sort of surgery at the larynx or who stutter or children who are not speaking clearly , maybe because thea are hearing imparied. Also a lot of hearing impaired people get voice therapy because they may have issues with their voices as well if they cannot hear themselves speaking. So a lot of people do get some sort of voice therapy - maybe look for voice rehab, voice therapy, speech therapy - anything like that and not just voice training - the latter sort of implies someone who has a good voice but wants to learn how to sing, speak in public, anything fancy like that. But the others are mor focussed on medical issues and at least in Germany usually this is even covered by health insurance if an ENT puts a diagnosis up saying you have some sort of speech problem, especially if you are in a job that requires speech.

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Eva

Well from what Ive seen so far its interesting and easy enough to try ;) Before I had this surgery I really did have my falsetto up there, I could hit 350hz peaks and a 210hz average IF I really tried, but it was a lot of effort... I did a lot of that and it did seem to help with my mixed voice... Since having the surgery my falsetto is nowhere near where it was... I think most of that has to be from no longer using falsetto and just losing conditioning due to not having to try to increase pitch... I feel like if I could easily get up around 200hz even if with a little effort Id be OK with it as is... There has to be some simple exercises I can do to get 2-3 notes higher comfortably even if I need to use some effort... Ive done absolutely nothing to attempt to improve my voice as far as exercises goes, there's gotta be something I can do...

I think I might look into speech therapy too and maybe not even mentioning the trans part to get started and see what happens... Yes I bet my insurance would cover it too if they coded it right...

Again Id appreciate whatever you can send me, thanks  ;)
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anjaq

Well - I would not mention anything about trans. Just tell them you have voice issues, you feel like you are limited and you tire quickly if you are using more of a range. something like that. Just say how it is now. If they really want to know you can say you had a surgery to cure "Androphonia", which is the term used if a woman has a more male-ish voice, usually from smoking too much or from having hormonal issues. Its not even a lie, right? ;)

350 Hz seems like it is still below the break into the head voice - was that your top highest note you could produce? If so, that sounds like you have just not "discovered" your head voice yet :o - For me, the voice went from 85 Hz to about 300, then I hit that break, and I went on at 400+ Hz and then up some - with some voice training that gap between 350 and 4xx was filled and the "up some" went up to 900 Hz. (in the second image here you can see the former "gap" - its where the volume still drops. (x-axis is frequency, y axis is loudness, the "black=loud voice" and "blue=soft voice" dots are my pitch).

Of course this was pre op, so I have no idea what happens now, but I think it shows that voice therapy can loosen up some parts of the voice that are not accessible without it.

Pre-voice therapy:

After 3 months of voice therapy:


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Eva

Thanks for the info from Yeson, yea it is a bit of a mystery without any other instruction but I think I get it  ;)

350hz peaks while talking in falsetto is what I meant, I never tried to record or analyze my absolute highest pitch... Id just practice things Id find in youtube videos... My range while talking went from a LOW low of 45hz up to about 350hz peaks in my highest falsetto voice which was about 210-220hz averaged and my trained voice was about what I have now at 175hz but with a lot more effort... Its now more like an absolute low of 100hz and a high of about 280hz if Im really trying... Like I said though my falsetto is nowhere near what it used to be even when I was smoking up to 3 packs of cigs a day before the surgery ??? So I wonder if I just need to do some exercises to get my higher range back or possibly even increase it...

Yes I like your ideas for getting in a speech therapists door around here if there even is one to be found ;D I can see no reason to disclose that at first or even possibly ever... If I was comfortable with the doc I probably would though if I thought it would help ;)
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anjaq

Hmm -I guess I am stumbling again over the definition of "falsetto" here... But yes, I think some training is almost mandatory ;) - I think there is a reason why Dr Kim recommended to do these exercises 5 times a day beginning after 2 months to make the new voice flexible and to get used to it and to learn how to use it properly and all that. And Dr Haben says the same, that you should do voice exercises and voice therapy, so you really should not skip this if you want to make the best out of your new voice :)

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Eva

Well Ive done ZERO training or exercises, this is just me rambling as usual....

Its been 5 months now post op and I feel like If I make an effort its not too bad but nowhere near as great as some Ive heard here surgery or not :-\ :(

I know Im a dummy but Im still smoking ::) It is what it is and I do seem to get by fine but I gotta be really careful on the phone :-\  All my GF's smoke and most of the guys I meet do too so its really hard not to around them...

I can hear maybe a very slight improvement from last month, not sure... Im not expecting much more improvement but I guess in time it is possible...

Ive just decided to stop worrying about it and make the best of it and get on with life for now anyway ;)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0QuL8cfNPxp
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anjaq

Oh - the elevated part sounds not good, yeah, bett stick to the natural speaking. I think pitchwise it is quite ok, but I suspect with some voice training you could improve the sound of it ... ("resonance" and all these things). And I think definitely smoking is not a good idea - did you smoke within the "no smoking" time that Yeson ususally prescribes? Like 3 months or so? If so, I am sure it slows down healing... then it may take some more time to heal. Have you gotten rid of the hoarseness and did you regain volume?


I decided to finally make a recording yesterday that I am more comfortable sharing. Its in German though. I tried a rainbow passage as well, but it came out increadibly hoarse, so I postpone this ;)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0eqhwuwNT1G

I have good days and bad days - evenings are always worse, days after talink a lot are bad... Its quite an up and down, but on a good day and in the morning this is how its natural. I hope that the times it is like this will get more and more and that there will still be some pitch increase coming along.


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thegreenrabbit

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kwala

Quote from: anjaq on April 12, 2015, 08:27:31 AM
Oh - the elevated part sounds not good, yeah, bett stick to the natural speaking. I think pitchwise it is quite ok, but I suspect with some voice training you could improve the sound of it ... ("resonance" and all these things). And I think definitely smoking is not a good idea - did you smoke within the "no smoking" time that Yeson ususally prescribes? Like 3 months or so? If so, I am sure it slows down healing... then it may take some more time to heal. Have you gotten rid of the hoarseness and did you regain volume?


I decided to finally make a recording yesterday that I am more comfortable sharing. Its in German though. I tried a rainbow passage as well, but it came out increadibly hoarse, so I postpone this ;)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0eqhwuwNT1G

I have good days and bad days - evenings are always worse, days after talink a lot are bad... Its quite an up and down, but on a good day and in the morning this is how its natural. I hope that the times it is like this will get more and more and that there will still be some pitch increase coming along.

Anja, sounds great!  It definitely sounds feminine to me and considering how early you are in your recovery I expect it to get even better.  I think you are going to have a lovely voice and pretty soon the "good days" are going to become the norm.  :)
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Eva

Quote from: anjaq on April 12, 2015, 08:27:31 AM
Oh - the elevated part sounds not good, yeah, bett stick to the natural speaking. I think pitchwise it is quite ok, but I suspect with some voice training you could improve the sound of it ... ("resonance" and all these things). And I think definitely smoking is not a good idea - did you smoke within the "no smoking" time that Yeson ususally prescribes? Like 3 months or so? If so, I am sure it slows down healing... then it may take some more time to heal. Have you gotten rid of the hoarseness and did you regain volume?


I decided to finally make a recording yesterday that I am more comfortable sharing. Its in German though. I tried a rainbow passage as well, but it came out increadibly hoarse, so I postpone this ;)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0eqhwuwNT1G

I have good days and bad days - evenings are always worse, days after talink a lot are bad... Its quite an up and down, but on a good day and in the morning this is how its natural. I hope that the times it is like this will get more and more and that there will still be some pitch increase coming along.

Hey Anjaq I think you sound very feminine even though I cant understand a word of it :D :P
I do remember your old voice and I think your gonna be happy in a few months when its more healed, congrats ;)

No I didn't smoke much at all for the first three months after surgery because I had to quit for FFS... I started again about three weeks after FFS and Im about ready to try quitting again, gonna have to soon for SRS hopefully in the fall :) 

Yea Im sure quitting and some voice therapy would help but there is just none to be found here...

I can do well enough on the phone now anyway... I also find that if Im out on a date with a guy I seem to do pretty good, I don't worry about it anymore unless Im somewhere I have to try talk loud, its just not there.... Im sure I could improve that maybe just by trying to sing and just exercising things but I'll admit Im just lazy.... RLE is my training and "therapy" :laugh:

Thanks Green Rabbit I appreciate it :)
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iKate


Quote from: anjaq on April 12, 2015, 08:27:31 AM
Oh - the elevated part sounds not good, yeah, bett stick to the natural speaking. I think pitchwise it is quite ok, but I suspect with some voice training you could improve the sound of it ... ("resonance" and all these things). And I think definitely smoking is not a good idea - did you smoke within the "no smoking" time that Yeson ususally prescribes? Like 3 months or so? If so, I am sure it slows down healing... then it may take some more time to heal. Have you gotten rid of the hoarseness and did you regain volume?


I decided to finally make a recording yesterday that I am more comfortable sharing. Its in German though. I tried a rainbow passage as well, but it came out increadibly hoarse, so I postpone this ;)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0eqhwuwNT1G

I have good days and bad days - evenings are always worse, days after talink a lot are bad... Its quite an up and down, but on a good day and in the morning this is how its natural. I hope that the times it is like this will get more and more and that there will still be some pitch increase coming along.

That sounds like the old days of DW shortwave radio to be honest. :) congrats you're sounding good!
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