levels of GID for Androgynes, Bi-gendered, etc

[Doc]

Yet even Doc, who seems to say that they would actually like to transition FtM, says that they want to become a male bodied androgyne Seems interesting that the mind is still androgyne, but the body wants to change. Seems to be something in that to tease out on a train journey or walk.

Yeah, I puzzle and puzzle over this. It's, okay, yeah, I feel more male than female and am not all that keen on having a female body, though aside from the chest thing it doesn't really interest me much.  I don't feel totally male, and it seems to me that one great joy I would get out of a male body would be the ability to express a certain femininity without being forced into the classification of woman because of it. If I, as a female, wear a lacy frilly shirt and lounge about sipping tea out of cups with little feet, it comes off totally different than if I did the same thing as a male. The latter is transgendered behavior and the former isn't, and more importantly, the latter is 'me' and the former isn't. This distinction strikes me as absurd, but it's there. If it was 1740, when women were women and men were prissy peacocks with edged weapons, would I be a real FTM? Am I one now, and just being cowardly and indecisive about it? Who knows. If I were male-bodied, would I be annoyed for some equivalent reason, like the way wearing a mechanics overall and barking my knuckles on the engines of old volkswagens would be a cisgendered thing to do and thus, male bodied, I'd feel difficulty in expressing masculinity without falling into the role of 'man' with uncomfortable and inappropriate neatness?

[Pica Pica]

If it was 1740, when women were women and men were prissy peacocks with edged weapons, would I be a real FTM?

Really we all just want to be dandy highwaymen don't we?

[Seshatneferw]

1740, when women were women and men were prissy peacocks with edged weapons

If I were male-bodied, would I be annoyed for some equivalent reason, like the way wearing a mechanics overall and barking my knuckles on the engines of old volkswagens would be a cisgendered thing to do and thus, male bodied, I'd feel difficulty in expressing masculinity without falling into the role of 'man' with uncomfortable and inappropriate neatness?

Looking at it from the opposite direction, I expect you would. This is really at the core of my gender dysphoria: my sex has too much influence on how others perceive my gender. I suppose it's partly because the normal variation of male and female gender expressions overlap, and therefore in order to overrule the anatomical cues one would have to go just a bit overboard with gender expression. Unfortunately, that doesn't feel right either, so instead I've tried to convince myself that it doesn't matter how the rest of the world sees me. Sometimes I even succeed.

  Nfr

[Laurry]

1740, when women were women and men were prissy peacocks with edged weapons

If I were male-bodied, would I be annoyed for some equivalent reason, like the way wearing a mechanics overall and barking my knuckles on the engines of old volkswagens would be a cisgendered thing to do and thus, male bodied, I'd feel difficulty in expressing masculinity without falling into the role of 'man' with uncomfortable and inappropriate neatness?

Looking at it from the opposite direction, I expect you would. This is really at the core of my gender dysphoria: my sex has too much influence on how others perceive my gender. I suppose it's partly because the normal variation of male and female gender expressions overlap, and therefore in order to overrule the anatomical cues one would have to go just a bit overboard with gender expression. Unfortunately, that doesn't feel right either, so instead I've tried to convince myself that it doesn't matter how the rest of the world sees me. Sometimes I even succeed.

  Nfr

That does seem to be at the heart of the problem.  If one is male-bodied, anything slightly masculine is considered "normal Man behavior"...if one has a female body, the slightest femininity is also seen as "normal Woman behavior".  It is very difficult to express gender traits that match one's body, and not be perceived by those around you as being within the acceptable variance for that gender.  Heck, it is hard enough, with my male body to express something feminine without being perceived as a gay man, but anything masculine throws me smack into the man category.

Not sure how we can break this perception problem, but I'd love to find a way.

.......Laurry 

[Doc]

Looking at it from the opposite direction, I expect you would. This is really at the core of my gender dysphoria: my sex has too much influence on how others perceive my gender.

Thanks. I feel like that. Until I had this horrible crash at the end of April, I was really clear about it. Now I'm muddled up, but finding your statement really helpful and comforting.

I suppose it's partly because the normal variation of male and female gender expressions overlap, and therefore in order to overrule the anatomical cues one would have to go just a bit overboard with gender expression. Unfortunately, that doesn't feel right either, so instead I've tried to convince myself that it doesn't matter how the rest of the world sees me. Sometimes I even succeed.

If one is male-bodied, anything slightly masculine is considered "normal Man behavior"...if one has a female body, the slightest femininity is also seen as "normal Woman behavior".  It is very difficult to express gender traits that match one's body, and not be perceived by those around you as being within the acceptable variance for that gender.  Heck, it is hard enough, with my male body to express something feminine without being perceived as a gay man, but anything masculine throws me smack into the man category.

It's not just the normal degree of variation in the overlap, it's that gender expression that matches your physical sex gets awarded more points. If a female tends a flower-garden, she's behaving in a feminine way. If a male does the same thing, his behavior is not feminine, it's neutral. Now I'm imagining a board game where you go along trying to collect or get rid of various Mannerism, Profession, Personal Inclination, and Clothing cards that say stuff like 'Enjoys watching football, add +1 masculinity if male bodied, +0 if female-bodied' and 'Lots of delicate jewelry, add +2 femininity if female-bodied, +1 if male-bodied' with the goal being to collect a combonation of cards that let you balance while still having a profession, character, interests and a wardrobe. If your cards actually balanced perfectly, you'd still have +1 masculinity for being male-bodied, so to be socially percieved as perfectly androgynous (you win!) you'd have to have more feminine cards than masculine ones. If you collected only neutral cards you'd be in the same boat.

[Lo]

Voted! Interesting thread. Can't wait to see what some folks have to say about it a few years later. :]

[Danielle Emmalee]

I voted for "changes, sometimes intense, sometimes not"

I thought it was the best fit for my answer.  To go into more detail, I generally never have any body dysphoria but I almost always have social dysphoria.  If I was living in a world where you were allowed to do/wear/say/like anything regardless of your gender and not be judged for it, I would be happy as a girl in a man's body.  I would also consider HRT, not for the body changes but to reduce the effects of testosterone on my mind.

[ativan]

I get that.
Consider a little Spiro. Does wonders for some. Quiets the noise.
If it wasn't for the low dose I take, I'd be much more cranky than I am.
The low dose estradiol patch makes things 'smooth'. I have no other way to describe that.
Might be worth it to try. If it's not right, you'll most likely know within a few days.
It's been way over a year, and a little soreness in my breasts, a little more fat there and on my hips.
Not enough that it's noticeable. Lot less body hair, but it's still there (Still Gross), and facial hair growth is very slow.
Ativan

[Lo]

I'm afraid to say that if I lived in a world were there was no source of social dysphoria, I think I would want surgery even more. It's like... It would be a taste of how good things COULD be? And I'd want more.

[Taka]

mm... if i could be anything, without people caring to be for or against or whatever, i would probably want to be everything.
ever since i was a child, i've wanted to live for a thousand years at least, just so i can get to read all those books that i want to read. would also be interesting to learn all the different languages in this world. one lifetime just isn't enough. and reincarnation wouldn't help even if it is/was real, because it doesn't allow memories to pass into the next life.

i'll keep looking to see whether or how i can get what medical treatment that could make me more of myself or less of what i'm not. can't be sure what it really is.