manlyness

[kittylover]

how do you break from feeling like you have to fit the stereotypes of "manlyness" especially when you feel like you have to prove you are a man because you happen to have two x chromosomes?
being emotional isn't "manly"
having mental health problems (even when at least some of them are due to dsyphoria) isn't "manly"
wearing leggings , skirts, dresses and sparkly things isn't "manly"
If you don't like sports you aren't "manly"
This is why it's so hard for me to tell if I'm ftm or nonbinary for sure....
Is the reason I don't fit these stereotypes because I'm not a man or because their only stereotypes and even cis men often don't fit them?

[orangejuice]

I'm a guy who wants to be a girl.  My whole life has been about sports. Captain of my school rugby team, a particularly 'manly' sport, and flirted with national selection before injury. They are just stereotypes.

[Deborah]

Men are plenty emotional.  They just don't let it show.


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[Marcellow]

I'm emotional still. But could be coming from a Spanish culture, the men are more emotional and let themselves feel.

[PucksWaywardSon]

It's been really interesting seeing the responses to my "I don't care if it's not manly" thread - really hilights the fact we ALL have that dichotomy to some extent, it makes us who we are and shows just how much of a spectrum gender really is.

I guess for me, yeah I find myself pushing my image of overconfidence a bit when I feel like I need to prove I'm in "guy mode" - I might become more conscious of my sitting/standing position, talk louder and generally.. be kind of more dickish than usual. But in general I do sort of eventually realise and catch myself doing that (and especially if it's with only close friends, I'll apologise) - I'm lucky in that I'm mostly only trying to navigate within nerd culture, and the theatre. Both have proven to be very accepting and also at the level I'm at kind of genderblind (exception: if you're read as female in the acting industry and you're overweight you'd better be a spectacular character actress. There is a bit more leeway with guys) so there's not as much call to prove myself as I imagine there would be in an office situation, or manual labour.

I do find myself deliberately dropping my voice when dealing with buying bus tickets or coffee though, but I think that's more to do with wanting to keep up whatever little passing I can manage at this stage and not be totally given away by my voice.

[captains]

I definitely think about this sometimes. "Am I a boy, or have I internalized some stereotypes about the things women can and can't do?" "Am I non-binary because of these things I like, or am I just a slightly different flavor of binary guy?" It's hard to sort out sometimes. Even the most enlightened person in the world has to do some serious soul-searching to try and untangle what's internal-biological and what's a deeply engrained cultural norm. In fact, a part of me thinks that I put too much emphasis on discovering the "core me" or "who I am underneath it all." These days, I'd rather know who I am WITH everything society has added. I live in the world and I'll never be free from outside influences. So do I feel uncomfortable with nail polish because I'm a boy, or because I feel like boys aren't allowed to like pretty nails? I dunno. I'll probably never know.

(I have found than accepting myself as male has let me feel freer about gender expression. When I was deep in the closet to myself, any aspect of feminine expression made me feel kind of sick and anxious, but it all seems lower stakes for me now. Like "girl with nail polish" freaked me out, but "boy with nail polish was like, eh, whatever! Pretty!"

[Kreuzfidel]

All of what you've described are generally learned behaviours that are usually culturally-specific.  Not all men in the world behave like you've described - that tends to be a Western trend especially. 

But if you live in a Western society, the pressure is often fairly high to conform. 

I think that, in order to buck that trend, you have to be at a place mentally and emotionally where you a) like your yourself as you are and b) don't give a crap what others think.  I list these two things together because I feel that "b." is dependent upon "a.".  You have to like yourself enough and feel comfortable enough within yourself as a man to not care what others' perceptions of you may be.

Some guys, trans* or not, do actually more or less innately enjoy things like sports or cars.  Just as many don't.  Pretending to enjoy these things isn't necessarily a trans* trait - plenty of cis guys pretend, too in order to "fit in" or to be taken seriously as a man. 

I've done this myself and I've seen it far too often within the ranks of those trans* guys just starting out on their journeys.  In the beginning, especially if you don't pass well - it's taken that the more "manly" things you do and the more stereotypically "manly" you behave, the better you "pass".  For some, this pretty much diminishes once they start T, get surgery or otherwise begin to be correctly gendered by others. 

I think that it's really just about looking around, in the end - and seeing just how many non-conformist cis men there are, too. 

[palexander]

feminism.
research.
it'll help.
i promise

[Bran]

feminism.
research.
it'll help.
i promise

What I was going to say, but more succinct.  Gender identity is a totally separate issue from conformity to socially imposed gender roles.  They even develop differently-- children instinctively know what gender they are, even prior to age 2.  Only later do they learn the gender-specific social roles, and then decide how to incorporate those roles into their own lives.  A cis male can be 100% comfortable with his gender identity, and yet not conform to stereotypes.  (He probably did internalize those stereotypes growing up, even if he rejects them now).  Similarly, though, transgender individuals can know and even conform to stereotypes of their assigned gender, and it has no impact on their internal gender identity.

In some ways we're lucky, I think. We were at least encouraged to try things that don't conform with our identified gender.  Lots of cis guys are too afraid to even explore gender-nonconforming activities. Imagine how many phenomenal male knitters the world is missing?  Or how many men have killed themselves, rather than admit they were depressed?  We have access to a wider range of possibilities. 

[captains]

feminism.
research.
it'll help.
i promise

No one here is stupid, man. Can we approach this discussion with the understanding that we all understand gender roles 101, and are looking for introspection and insight into how things impact our lives?

[Adam (birkin)]

I gave up on the whole "fitting into stereotypes" thing long before I acknowledged that I needed to transition. I was an unconventional woman, and given that I like women I was a lesbian as well. Frankly, I realized that there was always someone who was gonna have an issue with me no matter how I lived my life. I could pretend to be a straight, uber feminine woman, and there would still be people who hated me and wanted to see me hurt.

Similarly, I could be the manliest man ever and someone out there would still find a reason to hate me. So I may as well do whatever the heck I want. People like to believe if they fit in, if they do what is expected of them, that they will be safe, loved, and accepted. It's a lie. Nothing in life is guaranteed, so I would rather be myself and have people who like me for who I am, than be someone I'm not.

[darkblade]

Maybe this is a simplistic way of viewing things, but I think if you just try to be as true to yourself as you possibly can, as in not letting the societal aspect affect the way you act, things have a way of clearing themselves up. Stereotypes are exactly that, they aren't meant to "fit" everyone, they probably don't even fully fit anyone. That's why they're called stereotypes. It is sort of validating when you feel like you fit in them though, but that doesn't mean you should or have to. My friend has to get me in check every time I start talking about something I've noticed about me that I try to link to maleness, she keeps having to remind my little mind that wants so badly to have an answer for myself that things aren't so black and white with regards to maleness and femaleness.

I'm struggling with figuring out for sure whether I'm a guy or butch, though the more I let myself just go with it the more it seems to me like it's the former.

[palexander]

No one here is stupid, man. Can we approach this discussion with the understanding that we all understand gender roles 101, and are looking for introspection and insight into how things impact our lives?

but, uh, feminism deals with more than gender roles. society is pushing masculinity upon males and femininity upon females. guys MUST like sports, girls MUST wear make up... men are told to "grow a pair" or "man up" when they show emotion. they get called "pussies" when they talk about how they feel. as for introspection, what about the fact that men commit suicide (as bran mentioned) due to forced masculinity? feeling as though they need to support for their family, and if they don't, they're somehow less of a man?

[MySongIsLaughter]

After spending a long time trying to reassure my boyfriend that it's totally fine for him to wear nail polish and braid his hair if he wants to I'd feel like a bit of a hypocrite if I didn't allow myself to do things I want to because they're not considered "manly".

For me, there are things I'm reluctant to do at the moment because I'm not really at a stage where people percieve me as a man, and don't want to do anything that they might take as confirmation that I'm not. One of my main goals for myself is to reach the stage where if I wear nail polish people think "oh hey, that man's wearing nail varnish" rather than "they're wearing nail varnish so must be a girl".

But yeah, being trans is part of being myself and sometimes being myself also incorporates watching rom coms and painting my nails but that doesn't make me any less of a man!

[captains]

but, uh, feminism deals with more than gender roles. society is pushing masculinity upon males and femininity upon females. guys MUST like sports, girls MUST wear make up... men are told to "grow a pair" or "man up" when they show emotion. they get called "pussies" when they talk about how they feel. as for introspection, what about the fact that men commit suicide (as bran mentioned) due to forced masculinity? feeling as though they need to support for their family, and if they don't, they're somehow less of a man?

I'm not being clear. I agree that feminism discusses those things, and that reading and understanding feminist theory can be a good first step in understanding societal expectations and their intersections with masculine identity. I feel like I'm coming across as anti-feminist in some way here, and that couldn't be further from the truth. I highly value the feminist movement and its predominent thinkers, and I absolutely consider myself a feminist.

I was just under the impression that the OP and others in the thread were aware of the theory, but struggling pragmatically with unraveling internalizations of sexism and stereotypy. It's easy enough to say ''I feel like I'm not allowed to cry because of the patriarchy,'' but in my experience, it's much harder to fully 'get' that on an emotional level rather than an intellectual one, and to begin the long process of washing off that ... damaging societal residue, I guess. For me personally, it wasn't as simple as reading bell hooks' wiki page and being freed from a lifetime of pressures. It took/takes time, introspection, honesty, and effort.

If I sounded snippy or glib with my gender roles comment, I apologize. Not my intention at all. I was being overly sensitive, and that's my bad.

[palexander]

I'm not being clear. I agree that feminism discusses those things, and that reading and understanding feminist theory can be a good first step in understanding societal expectations and their intersections with masculine identity. I feel like I'm coming across as anti-feminist in some way here, and that couldn't be further from the truth. I highly value the feminist movement and its predominent thinkers, and I absolutely consider myself a feminist.

I was just under the impression that the OP and others in the thread were aware of the theory, but struggling pragmatically with unraveling internalizations of sexism and stereotypy. It's easy enough to say ''I feel like I'm not allowed to cry because of the patriarchy,'' but in my experience, it's much harder to fully 'get' that on an emotional level rather than an intellectual one, and to begin the long process of washing off that ... damaging societal residue, I guess. For me personally, it wasn't as simple as reading bell hooks' wiki page and being freed from a lifetime of pressures. It took/takes time, introspection, honesty, and effort.

If I sounded snippy or glib with my gender roles comment, I apologize. Not my intention at all. I was being overly sensitive, and that's my bad.

ah, now this makes more sense. i thought you were misinformed/had the wrong impression of feminism. which, unfortunately, many do because of the radicals. my point in op further researching was that it would help them establish a better understanding of how a "man" should be.

[Brandon]

but, uh, feminism deals with more than gender roles. society is pushing masculinity upon males and femininity upon females. guys MUST like sports, girls MUST wear make up... men are told to "grow a pair" or "man up" when they show emotion. they get called "pussies" when they talk about how they feel. as for introspection, what about the fact that men commit suicide (as bran mentioned) due to forced masculinity? feeling as though they need to support for their family, and if they don't, they're somehow less of a man?

Me personally I have no problem with fitting in as I am a very masculine male,  Know I happen to believe that if your gonna be a man act like one and if your gonna be a woman then act like that to, I am sorry but if your gonna be a man then yes you need to support and provide for your family because us men are the head of the household thats just it and yes I believe there are certain things a woman should be doing. Not to sound like an ass but I believe yes that if your a man be masculine, its ok to cry sure because real men do in fact cry, and if your woman be feminine. Sone of us needa quit being so sensitive I get told to man up and grow some balls all the time, I have been called a b**** and a p****but I am not gonna go cry about it but of course I am a Christian so my belifs are a little different than yours and others.

[palexander]

Me personally I have no problem with fitting in as I am a very masculine male,  Know I happen to believe that if your gonna be a man act like one and if your gonna be a woman then act like that to, I am sorry but if your gonna be a man then yes you need to support and provide for your family because us men are the head of the household thats just it and yes I believe there are certain things a woman should be doing. Not to sound like an ass but I believe yes that if your a man be masculine, its ok to cry sure because real men do in fact cry, and if your woman be feminine. Sone of us needa quit being so sensitive I get told to man up and grow some balls all the time, I have been called a b**** and a p****but I am not gonna go cry about it but of course I am a Christian so my belifs are a little different than yours and others.

a very masculine male or a douchebag?  this is absolutely disgusting. out of all people, you'd think a trans guy would understand. remember where YOU came from. don't forget what you were born with. you're taking the male privilege that you have and are telling women they're nothing more than someone who should remain in the kitchen and cannot provide for themselves. your belief in christianity has nothing to do with gender equality.

[Jill F]

Topic locked for now.