Dual Citizenship... and Passport stuff...

[Username]

This shouldn't be worrying me, as i won't start transitioning or moving any time soon and I'm still very very young, but it's become like a dysphoria. The situation haunts me and I can't sleep.

I was born in Argentina, but I also have dual citizenship with Italy (because of jure sanguinis, family blood line stuff). Now I now in my home country you can now change the sex and name on documents without transitioning (EDIT: well sort of, it's a mess, but they're going to hopefully pass a bill next year to make it easier), but I have no idea how this translates to my Italian passport (which I have yet to get).

I really want to move to Europe, but this is starting to worry me, what if I'm male in one country and still female in the other. And I can't find a scrap of information on the subject, I've searched for hours, in english, spanish, and even some italian (not much), and nothing pops up.. I know Italy allows sex changes, but nowhere can I find what is required for one, or if they would just recognize the sex change in my country of birth and change it without hassle (I doubt this).

If nobody here has an Italian citizenship, or knows any way to help me, do you at least know who I should talk to? Are there specific lawyers for this stuff? Just knowing I'll be able to find out what I need would be extremely comforting. I'm not moving anywhere yet, but I want to plan ahead, see where I have to change my name/sex first. Should I change my sex then attempt to get my first passport, or the other way around, or.... i'm lost.

[LordKAT]

You could try talking to an Italian embassy. I would think that if you can get the documents changed before you leave Argentina, that Italy would use the same info for a passport from there.

[Username]

Yeah, I could do that, I just wish I could find some info beforehand. I've been to the embassies for other documents and they have such annoying employees. I haven't had nice experiences with them. I'll call as a last resort. I'd prefer to know I can do it, so then I can argue properly with the idiots that work at the embassy if they decide to deny me.

[missF]

Hi,

I have somehow the same problem, but apparently your case is simpler. I am also dual italian (but brazilian, not argentinian) and in Italy the law (law 164/82) demands you to have SRS and an attorney to change name/gender (actually, you need a decision from the justice *also* to have the SRS). If you are able to change gender on your birthday certificate before getting the italian passport you don't have to worry, cause the info you for the passport would be the one your birthday certificate, so definitely wait to get the italian citizenship.

I know that cause I have been researching as well and from what got one of the papers you need to show when changing gender in Italy is the birth certificate, to prove that you had the other gender...

Hope I've helped!

[Username]

Thanks so much for the info, it's been a while since anybody replied.

So I would just get a passport like normal and they would be fine with it, I would just show the new birth certificate? Would they even know I'd changed sex, or would I need to show them the original one too?

I'm not quite sure the exact status of my Italian citizenship. I know I'm definitely eligible and my parents did something, and I know I've never had a passport. I need to ask... I'm new to all this stuff

So where did you get this elusive info I've been searching for? Is there a website or something I've missed.

[mimpi]

Hi, am not an expert on this nor have Italian citizenship but have family members that do starting with my son. Assuming the family line is all according to the rules and having experienced how the whole system works (l'anagrafe) much would depend if you have ever been on the system anywhere. There are two lists held: one of all those resident in Italy and the other of italian citizens resident abroad. If you do not have an Italian birth certificate, your birth has not registered at an italian consulate and you do not result on any documents possibly held at any consulate or any ufficio anagrafe in Italy such as a stato di famiglia or whatever they have as yet no knowledge of you. This is probably a good starting position as changing anything whatsoever let alone gender is a right pain in the head with that bureaucracy.

If then you have managed to get an upgraded birth certificate and passport from your country of birth both in your present gender (and possibly a certificate of having a clean record with the criminal justice system in your country?) you should be on a winner and I don't see why you should ever have to mention your birth gender if they don't query you on it and there are no questions on the application forms asking if you have changed it. That said there may well be a question as to any previous names you have held...

Here are some links that may help, in the first Wiki one scroll to the bottom where it says: "Ministero dell'Interno - La Cittadinanza Italiana - La Normativa, Le Procedure, Le Circolari (RTF) in Sito ufficiale Ministero dell'Interno" and there's a download which may be of help.

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cittadinanza_italiana  http://www.meltingpot.org/articolo1059.html

Good luck 

Edit: Make sure you don't come up on any of your parent's documents under your old name and gender too. If they have ever resided in Italy and you were with them you will still be on a system somewhere...

[Username]

Thank you for the links, I've skimmed through but I'll read them over thoroughly when I have time. I know I was never ever in Italy and neither were my parents, but I have no idea if I was ever on the record for anything else, I still have to contact my parents on that one.

What would happen if I was on the record? I mean if as you said, you need a court order from Italy just to have surgery (I want to have top surgery) and I didn't get that permission but I had the surgery anyway in my country I'd be in an awkward situation... Also nobody would happen to know if Italy requires Top and Bottom surgery?

[mimpi]

As far as I understand it if your birth certificate and passport from Argentina are in your correct (destination) gender and you have never been registered anywhere on the Italian system there is absolutely nothing they can say. Not sure what registration system you have over there but the only problem would possibly be if you result in your birth gender in family documents that you might have to use to prove your italian ancestry. Something like the italian "stato di famiglia" or a "family card" for example.

My ex wife was a naturalised Italian citizen who went through the system in the late seventies. In her case she was born and grew up in Somalia (then under a UN mandate given to Italy) and was a British Commonwealth citizen which means that one has zero residency rights anywhere in practice. Her birth certificate was missing as were all records of it due to the British Consulate in Mogadishu having been burnt down. We had to get 12 people down to the town hall at 08.30 one morning with their IDs to swear she was who she claimed to be. It worked and she was granted citizenship. I'm sure your case is far stronger and much simpler. If you were a footballer they would probably beg you on their knees to take citizenship being Argentinian and all!

Edit: Probably best not to apply for a passport before sorting it back home. Then they will give you a hard time and you will be subject to italian law. In the past they treated trans people very badly. The Carta d'Identità used to have written "Segni Particolari: Sembianze Femminili/Sembianze da Uomo" How ****ing offensive is that? For all I know things are still the same...

[Username]

Wow, that is offensive. Ugh... well I'm going to have a chat with my parents, research this a bit more and when I have all the details I'll post again if I'm still not sure what my situation is.

Thanks for all the help everyone

[missF]

1st thing to know is what is the status of your family, if it is already registered in the comune where your italian ancestor was registered, I mean is the process to recognize his or her descendants is already done.

I won't go through much details cause I was a teenager when I got mine so my parents were the ones who dealt with everything (my family case was relatively easy since the passport of my ancestor survived 100 years, so we had the documents in hands which made things faster). Families who can't prove right away normally have to request the birth certificate of the ancestor from the city where the person was born.

I don't know though, supposing that the process of your family is done, if your name had to be sent. If this is the case then yes, you are already somewhere in the italian files. If not, then perfect, because when you apply for your passport you will have under your new name and gender.

Following the other advices, deal with changing your argentinian documents and then later deal with the italian passport

Edit: Probably best not to apply for a passport before sorting it back home. Then they will give you a hard time and you will be subject to italian law. In the past they treated trans people very badly. The Carta d'Identità used to have written "Segni Particolari: Sembianze Femminili/Sembianze da Uomo" How ****ing offensive is that? For all I know things are still the same...

With the law 164/82, once the person has the positive answer to change name and gender in the documents, he or she is legally in every aspect (so such note wouldn't be there) and then we are even able to marry or adopt children, with few examples on how the old gender could be tracked. The wikipedia page in italian (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transessualit%C3%A0#Il_percorso_di_transizione)  has further details

http://www.t-girl.it/1-dis/1.6-leg/1.6.1-legge_164-82.htm  (in italian) has some good info, such as the law itself  and some other detail (hopefully you won't need to use the law in Italy like I do!!)

[Username]

So... I talked to my parents, and apparently I'm listed as their child somewhere so I'm in the system. My mom doesn't remember exactly what she did, but she did tell me they definitely have me listed as their child.

So in what order should I do things now that I know this? Should I get surgery and hormones, then change documents in Argentina, then ask to have my sex changed for italy? Or would I have to ask them permission first to have the surgery?

Ugh, so confusing, there needs to be a book made for this.

[mimpi]

Interesting. Am surprised the Regione Lazio is apparently so generous.  I only spent 22 years in Italy and I hope for all your sakes it has changed for the better in regards to Trans issues, for the rest it breaks my heart to see what has happened to the country of my youth and to the hopes many of us held back then. Best and happiest years of my life.

[mimpi]

So... I talked to my parents, and apparently I'm listed as their child somewhere so I'm in the system. My mom doesn't remember exactly what she did, but she did tell me they definitely have me listed as their child.

So in what order should I do things now that I know this? Should I get surgery and hormones, then change documents in Argentina, then ask to have my sex changed for italy? Or would I have to ask them permission first to have the surgery?

Ugh, so confusing, there needs to be a book made for this.

As far as I understand that changes everything. I suggest you consult Miss F at this point. In cases of dual citizenship italian law will alway take precedence while on national territory.

[missF]

So... I talked to my parents, and apparently I'm listed as their child somewhere so I'm in the system. My mom doesn't remember exactly what she did, but she did tell me they definitely have me listed as their child.

So in what order should I do things now that I know this? Should I get surgery and hormones, then change documents in Argentina, then ask to have my sex changed for italy? Or would I have to ask them permission first to have the surgery?

Ugh, so confusing, there needs to be a book made for this.

As far as I understand that changes everything.

Hmm, like mimpi said this changes everything.

In my case I did my whole transition and SRS in Finland, where I live. In the beginning this issue of asking italian justice to authorize or not the surgery here came to my case, however, I pretty much ignored and did anyway (the subject was brought by a doctor who later showed not be trusted). If I understand correctly this whole justice authorization thing for the surgery is for the case of a person who resides in Italy and will do SRS in Italy.

One thing that would need to verify is that if changing your birth certificate in Argentina would make things easier or not to have the italian passport under the new name. And this is something I've been afraid: that Italy demands to change 1st my brazilian birth certificate. If such thing happens, then I am in big trouble...). Hey, actually when I was in contact with the embassy here in Helsinki they asked me if I could change the info 1st in Brazil, so I guess this might indicate something

If you speak italian (or someone from your family, etc), I'd suggest you also to email Arcigay. It's the main GBLT association in Italy and they have some legal support, although it's mainly to deal with cases of homophobia and discrimination (the webpage is http://www.arcigay.it/ , and the email for legal support is sportellolegale@arcigay.it )

I hope I can have more info once I start the appeal there. I understand how frustrate with the lack of info you are, 'cause I have been (still am?) in the same boat.

Hugs,

Flavia

[mimpi]

Would second Flavia's advice concerning Arcigay. They have been excellent for very many years as has ARCI in general, never ceases to amaze me that the ARCI is still around so many years after the parent PCI has gone.

Found this generic link below as well.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&sqi=2&ved=0CEQQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Flib.ohchr.org%2FHRBodies%2FUPR%2FDocuments%2FSession7%2FIT%2FJ1_UPR_ITA_S07_2010_JointSubmission1.pdf&rct=j&q=arcigay%20transgender&ei=w8qDTvLSD9Kx8QPFh_UJ&usg=AFQjCNGnkeCRmMj5fCuvaeJ5OGkIl3KWMg

And, scroll to link at bottom: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisalide_AzioneTrans

[Username]

I'll see if I can find someone who can write nicely in Italian and email them. I can read it okay-ish since it's similar to spanish, but not really.

So the permission to get surgery is only for people residing in Italy, that makes more since. So what I have to find out is which country I have to change my name in first. At least I know that it's possible, well it's looking that way anyways.

Thanks for the help everyone. I probably won't be changing anything any time soon as I'm in neither country, but it's brought me some peace of mind until I move back to either Argentina or Italy. I just wanted to know it was possible even if I have to fight for it. I kept having weird nightmares I was stuck somewhere were they didn't let me change anything.

[mimpi]

I kept having weird nightmares I was stuck somewhere were they didn't let me change anything.

Won't happen. Worst case scenario there's always Iran! Just pretend to be religious and they'd probably even pay you to get srs, I'm joking but have to admit I did contemplate it once but didn't fancy being married off to some Iranian man with a moustache. Even went as far as converting to Shia Islam at the Iranian Consulate in Rome before I laid to rest my well planned scam, sorry I meant plan.

[cascado]

Hey guys,

Any news on this? i.e. How to go about changing name and gender on an italian passport? I'm now starting this nightmare of a process and could do with all the help I can get.