Retransitioning to a feminine/androgynous state?

[EchelonHunt]

Hello everyone,

I would like to throw a question out there - would it be possible to re-transition to a more feminine/androgynous state rather than de-transitioning back to female?

I am discovering I enjoy female clothes immensely but I cannot wear such clothes unless I would like to invite discrimination and violence into my life.

I have stopped caring about gender as a whole. I just want to be able to express myself safely and the only way I think I can do that is thinking about transitioning to a more androgynous/feminine state than forward to male or backwards to female.

Feminine state... I mean that I will still pursue the FTM surgeries (top surgery, hysterectomy, metoidioplasty) but my gender expression will be feminine/andro, clothing, etc. My name will be gender neutral (It is currently my male name, Jason but want to change it to Jacey.) My deepened voice will be gender neutral, as I have been training it slowly from help of voice therapy.

I have female social conditioning ingrained into my mind, I cannot change this - I have not grown up with male socialization ingrained into my being... I do not find any interest in looking at women like they are pieces of meat to stare and drool over. I find it repulsive that men think this is perfectly normal behavior but it is not, it is objectifying women into something they are not. Living in a male world has alienated me more than living in a female world has. I like that being a male, I have become "invisible", I blend into the crowd, the introvert within me is overjoyed that I am no longer scrutinized under the eyes of others but sometimes... it is lonely. I have mostly female friends and I simply do not know how to socialize with males properly. I find once I get to know them more, I find it easier to joke around and be more friendly but outside of that, it's like wandering into the unknown. I do not know what lines I cannot cross, what invisible rules to follow because I do not have the appropriate knowledge to proceed with caution.

Does anyone relate...?

I am submissive by nature, my parents have changed the way they react to me now that I am male. It is jarring and it feels forced, awkward on their part. I did not pursue transition so they would treat me differently, I am still the same person. They smack me on the back in a rough manner and when I wince, they tell me to "toughen up, princess." It makes me want to cry.

I don't know what else to say...

Kind regards,

Jacey

[Apples Mk.II]

As my shrink and a lot of people here will say... Each person's transition is different and you don't have to conform to an standard or stereotype. If you find your place in the spectrum were you feel happy, embrace it.

[Chloe]

. . . pieces of meat to stare and drool over. I find it repulsive that men think this is perfectly normal behavior

Real men don't think like this: 'lil boys seeking urban legend only. I like your plan, makes perfect sense to me . . . While I am resigned, because of kids, to nominally dressing/presenting yuck male (sorry!) nothing makes me happier when people often still refer to me as ma'am'!!

LOL Their bad not mine!! I view transition as a perfect way of avoiding, staying AWAY from 'sex' and it's oftimes ugly discussions!! Enjoying feminine looking cloths rather precludes any possibility of any such 'mistaken gender identity' you sound stable enough just need to find that happy life balance!

[androgynouspainter26]

Echelon Hunt,

Just remember this-sex and gender are different things.  You can absolutely feel the need to be physically male, but not behave in a traditionally masculine way.  If you want to be male, you can certainly be male on your own terms (I mean look at all the different sorts of people who fall under the "guy" umbrella!).  If sociatal pressures are nagging on you-well, you might want to find a community that really understands people like us.  I don't know your situation, but finding people like yourself (nonbinary, trans, queer, etc) has really helped me personally.

[Taka]

dear jacey...

i know many men who abhor common male socialization and find it just as disgusting as you do, when men look at women only as sexual objects to drool over.
they will usually be the quiet ones in any conversation about women and sex.

it is much easier to find male friends in odd clubs. maybe not martial arts, but i love how capoeira often forces men to learn samba de brazil. and all the hugging, as if it were the most natural thing in the world.
i found the most interesting guys in the japan club in uni. perfectly normal guys with very uncommon interests, and no qualms about teasing homophobes with the gay bar song.
societies that stink of integrity are often the easiest ones to find a place for yourself in.

there's just one thing though, that i feel like i should say about socializing with men.
if it doesn't feel natural to you, maybe there isn't much point in trying too hard?
the only reason i end up socializing with women is because i have to talk to my daughter's friends' mothers.
i eat lunch with male colleagues, and enjoy it.
i eat lunch with female colleagues when i've chosen an unlucky time to take lunch, and feel really out of place.
seems like a sure sign that i don't really know how to socialize as a woman.
online experience confirms it too. i always feel better in somewhat male dominated spaces.


those invisible borders are interesting.
i'm used to be seen as a "woman", so i'm allowed to say a whole lot of things that i've come to realize men aren't allowed to say in spaces where there are women too. i'm apparently a sexist bastard of a male chauvinist if i'm male (women call me these things online occasionally), but completely ordinary if i'm a woman who says the same things (women never bat even a single eyelash offline).
gives me an odd feeling.

i have no idea what men accept or not.
they look at me like i've fallen down from the moon or something at times, but i've never had any negative reactions after i stopped trying to be a girl.
doesn't mean i'm presenting much differently, i'm just being me, as natural as i can be without unnecessary rudeness.
seems that i'm acceptable this way. more so than as a wannabe girl.
but i've no idea how that would change on hrt.

i think answers would most easily be found by gradually shedding everything fake.
strangers, or those not too close, would probably adjust their definitions of you without much trouble.
you'll notice when you've stepped over a border, but the damage is usually nothing that can't be easily glossed over.
most people will happen to say really weird things at times. it's easily forgotten.

[EchelonHunt]

Thank you everyone for responding. I realize now that it is OK to have female social conditioning and still be male.

I didn't think you could have a female-transitioned-to-male body and have a gender identity that is anything but male. DF, Suzi (and androgynouspainter26...? Please correct me if I'm wrong!) are individuals who don't identify completely as female yet they transitioned/strive to transition to achieve a female body to settle the body dysphoria - it didn't occur to me that it could be possible on the other end of the spectrum...! I feel so silly now!

A female presentation or what I like to call "female social identity", underneath the clothes, an effeminate male body and within that male body, houses one shy little agender androgyne soul & brain.

Thank you all~ I am still transitioning to male but have now accepted my femme male identity. Gosh, it feels so good to accept myself and not fight the doubts or insecurities that held me back.

[androgynouspainter26]

Hahaha, awwww...yeah, that sounds like me   Not identifying as female fully, I mean...the whole notion of binary gender just confuses me!  Why limit yourself?  It's awesome that you've reached a point where you can feel happy and secure with yourself and your identity.  Just remember-there's no wrong way to be yourself!

[Joanna Dark]

Men act completely different when there are no women present. I imagine this could be jarring for an FTM or GenderQueer person. Sure, there are men who don't catcall, but basically if you have two men together talking about women the whole "i'd eff her..." is def coming up. I've always hung out woith women as friends so the reverse isn't as true for me. In fact, I fit in much better.