Got Cited . . .

[gina_taylor]

Thanks for givng me that excellent idea Cindi. I'll write it up and get it out ASAP, and that would really be putting the owner in her place if I were to demand that she puts up a sign stating who can go in. She'd lose business so fast, because of showing her true colors. And thanks for your additional idea Rebis. There are a few other cross-dressers here, and  they have been seen walking around the local shopping mall. Thanks Kristi for that website. I just joined and posted the what had happened. Ell, thanks for yoru suggestion. I will state everything: names, dates, time of day, etc.

Gina 

[RebeccaFog]

Hi Gina,

   It's good to hear you are taking action. Remember we are all with you.
   Don't forget to keep us informed because your experience is going to be a learning experience not only for you, but also for many of us.


Rebis

[Elizabeth]

The laws about trespassing in a place of public accommodation are pretty specific, in most places and requires the person to be notified in some way, by sign or personally that they are no longer welcome. "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone". If you were not asked to leave, or there were  no signs posted that say wearing clothes of the opposite gender is forbidden, usually there can be no trespassing. I mean is everyone expected to just guess what annoys the owners of establishments and if they guess wrong they are trespassing?

If crossdressing is legal, then the owner must actually use their right to refuse service to you, which if I understand correctly, they did not. I would for sure fight this ticket.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[daisybelle]

Keep us in the loop --- hey if you have to go dressed as a man then go as a Scotsman in kilt and all.  The officer specifically said to be dress as a man.  Make sure your are fulfilling that end too.

Just make sure to fight them anyway you can.

Anyway -- first post here!! need a few more to see some links

Daisy

[Gabrielle]

Gina,

Are you up in Port Charlotte or Punta Gorda still?  I was curious since I have a few friends up there that I visit from time to time.

[gina_taylor]

I wrote and sent the letter to the editor of our local newspaper, but I signed it anonymously. When I was being cited by the officer, she asked to see my identification. So she took my driver's license and wrote on the citation my male name. I'm just trying to protect some things, so that is why I signed it anonymously. But I did go over everything that I said and I added a few things, and hopefully by Friday or Saturday it may be printed.

A friend who works at our shopping mall (where the wig store is also located) told me that the mall is not considered public property but is more considered private property because it's owned by Simon Mall, so he was cautioning me about cross-dressing there, but as said I've never had any problems until lately with the wig store.

But hopefully if my letter gets printed it should open a lot of eyes to tell people that we are just like them, and that they shouldn't be judgemental due to the way that we're dressed.

Thanks for the information Elizabeth. The owner of the Flea Market never verbally told me that I wasn't allowed back in there, but it was all said by the police officer, and that was that I cannot go back in there dressed as a woman, but I am allowed as a man. But aside from that if I do go back in there dressed as a woman, I'll be arrested. As you all know, there are ways around it, like nobody can really say if I'm wearing jeans for women or men and the type of shoes I wear are the same, and nobody can really ever tell if I'm wearing socks or pantyhose. It's jsut that when I'm all done up with my wig and makeup that people find it offensive.

I live in Port Charlotte Gabrielle. If you're ever in the area, I'd love to see you.

Gina 

[RebeccaFog]

You seem like a really sweet woman, Gina.

I hope everything goes your way.

I agree with being anonymous in your letter.  It would feel like a sham if you used your male name.  All you want to do at this point is try to bring the topic out into the open.


Rebis

[robinhayes]

I wrote and sent the letter to the editor of our local newspaper, but I signed it anonymously.

Gina - did you check with the paper about their guidelines for letters to the editor?  In my experience, they never print anonymous letters.  If you sign it and request, they will do "name withheld by request", though.

wasn't allowed back in there, but it was all said by the police officer, and that was that I cannot go back in there dressed as a woman, but I am allowed as a man. But aside from that if I do go back in there dressed as a woman, I'll be arrested.

I am emphatically not a lawyer.  However, if the citation is in your male name, and there's nothing written down about any conditions (e.g. "not crossdressed") then you would be arrested for showing up in any presentation.  Of course, the owner has the option not to call the police to enforce the "no tresspass" order, but if she did, you'd be sunk unless the cop chose to have some mercy on you.

Just some thoughts -- sorry I couldn't be more encouraging!

Regards,
Robin

[gina_taylor]

Thanks Rebis for that sweet compliment, and thanks for understanding my motives with signing the letter anonymously.

Y'know Robin, I don't think I'll have any problems. If I don't see it printed by Saturday, I'll just send another letter, but this time I'll sign it and like you suggested I'll ask for my name to be withheld. I'll have to go over the citation and see what exactly was written. I had gone back to the Flea Market on Sunday, and I had no problems. I told my friend about what had happened and she was shocked!!!

Gina 

[gennee]

Wow, Gina. I'm sorry to hear what happened. Goes to show you that still a long way to go regarding discrimination. I'm curious to know what the person was uncomfortable about?

Anyway, keep your chin up Gina. Don't let them discourage you.

Gennee

🙂

[gina_taylor]

Hey Gennee, thanks for your kind words, but you are right that most people don't realize when they're discriminating agaisnt others. I guess just the fact of me being there was enough to upset the owner. But like I said, I was watching a lot of people form my friend's booth, and most of them never paid any attention to me. I dress conservatively. I don't dress flamboyantly to stand out. As I said before all I was wearing was my tight jeans, a peach colored blouse, my black wig and my white skimmers. A good friend of mine had just told me that she doesn't care if people relaize that she's a man and not a woman when she's out dresssed. It's never her purpose to trick anyone, but just being able to be our true selves is all that we want.

Gina 

[EricaCD]

Well, to back up a bit.  I am not 100% certain as to the law of trespass in Florida - but most states' laws on trespass do not differ.  Businesses that are open to the public are ordinarily deemed to have consented to any trespass (which in the legal sense is distinct from criminal trespass, which is what you are talking about) until the owner requests that you leave the premises.  In other words, until you were asked to leave you were not committing criminal trespass and the police office had no business citing you for anything.  At the very most, the officer could have told you that he had been requested by the owner to tell you to leave the premises.

Of course, to tell an officer otherwise on the scene is to dramatically raise the ante, and I'm not sure I'd suggest you do so unless (1) you are a lawyer, (2) you have some resources to dedicate to the fight and (3) you have no concerns about being outed.  So you probably did the right thing by just moving on.  But, unless there's a genuine peculiarity of Florida of law at play here, the officer was not acting properly.

I do not know the current state of Florida's discrimination law on gender presentation, but I do suspect that the "we reserve the right to refuse service" concept probably protects the owner of the flea market.  So she did have the right to say "don't come back here" irrespective of HOW you are dressed.  Your best recourse is to do exactly what you did:  publicize the intolerant attitude of the owner and hope that social pressures eventually compel a change.

Standard disclaimer:  I am not admitted to practice in Florida; this is only a general statement of my understanding of the law; this is NOT legal advice and you are not my client.  Hey, I have to say this stuff.

By comporting yourself with dignity and decency in the face of idiocy and intolerance, you did absolutely the right thing.  Well done!

[gina_taylor]

Yesterday (Sunday, Sept. 9, 2007) I saw my friend that I had seen last week, and she told me that after I had left (which was the day after the incident had occured), she went and spoke with the owner and told her that I wasn't causing any problems and that she didn't understand why she would go to the trouble of calling the police on me. She told me that I could sue the Flea Market if I wanted to. At least I'd have her support. 

In short Erica, I had already left the building when the police officer had approached me and she was the one who told me that the owner didn't want me coming back in there dressed as a woman. But what you've said about the differences betweeen committing criminal trespass and basic trespassing I found interesting, and if I were to sue them I could use that as my defense.

What I'm  thinking about doing is going to the local police station and finding out what rights I have. As I've said before, cross-dressing is not against the law unless I'm using it to hide something. My friend had asked me to get two sodas for us, and I bodly went up to the food counter and the clerk knew who I was, but didn't refuse to serve me.

Gina 

[Skye]

I am no lawyer, but what I have learned about the legal system is that alot of it is built on precident.
In other words, if one person did it, and it was deemed legal, then its ok for you.
In this case, I would suggest clearing your ticket first.  It sounds to me like you will beat that one without much issue.  Once that is done, use that case in your law suit against the store owner, adding in that you purchased drinks from her, and she did not refuse service then(which would have been her opportunity).
This way, when it comes out, you can site not only the case, but the intent shows that it was blatent discrimination.   Additionally, if you get the officer to state on record that you were welcome to return if not crossdressed, then you REALLY have some amunition to go after her.   If not thing else.   Make her feel the burn!!!

Don't be mad.  Just be vengeful! 🙂

[gina_taylor]

Thanks Skye for your advice. That's interesting on what you've said though about the fact that if one person has done it, and it was deemed legal than it's ok for me. A few years ago, I had went to the same Flea Market and was reprimended because I had used the women's washroom. Naturally I thought it looked better since I was dressed as a woman. But since then I have learned, and all that I had done this time was I went in and saw my friend. I didn't think that there was anything against the law in what I was doing. Maureen, my cross-dressing friend just sent me something that I thought was funny at first, but looking at it seriously I really felt that she was making a statement to me about my situation. It was just a four page incident about a woman forcing her husband to go shopping. *If anyone is interested, I'll post it* However, I have been checking the local newpaper, and nothing has been printed. So what I intend to do is send the same letter to our other local newspaper and I'm working on a letter to the owner and bringing to her attention the unlawful things that she has done.

Gina, the vengeful

[vicki f]

Hey Gina,

I read you more recent post about your therapist before I read this.  I guess that was what lead to his "abnormal" comment.  I am so sorry this has happened to you.  But I still think my comments on the therapist are valid.  It may be easier to just stay inside and I'm not sure I'd want to go to jail either, and you certainly don't want to risk bodily harm.  I know it's beautiful in Florida, but I think you might try a more urban setting--Miami has to be cool with CDs!  Or you could come up to Philly--we, along with NYC and some other places DO have anti-discrimination laws on the books that include transgendered individuals.  It seems to me that even though the flea market is on 'private property', you should have a right to public access as a customer, since the owner is running a business, not a private club or residence!  And the appropriate thing would have been for the owner to have said something to you personally since even if he has the right to ask you not to return, there was no prior restriction or law in place forbidding your access.  Good Luck, whatever you do, but I think you might want to consider whether this is the place for you.

Love, Vicki

I guess I should read more before I post; it sounds like you got some of the same advice but more specific and useful than mine.  The concern is still there--as is the suggestion to move to Philly; there's quite a group of us girls here!

[jerigurl]

to be cited for trespassing first you must have been notified that you were, by sign and or verbal notice, second that you were given an opportunity to leave, third that you refused that opportunity and then were open to citation.  just being dressed as you were, is not a crime, if it was a flea market, it is open to the public and therefore unless you were "loitering" (which is a different offense), the trespassing citation is extremely contestable.  You should then counter with a suit for discrimination (civil rights violations). As long as you were a patron of the Flea Market and not doing anything illegal, you should prevail.  Stand up for your rights.

[tarasita]

Hi Gina

I was interested to know whether anything has come of this? Did you letter get posted in the paper?

[Caitlin Rose]

I'm a little confused...You say you went there to shop.  You walked around and then you left.   No one said anything until you were on your way out.  If no one ever asked you to leave, you weren't trespassing. 

A flea market is open to the public.  You are part of the public.  If you weren't creating a disturbance, the owner and the cops would have a hard time making a case that you were "tresspassing."  In most places "I didn't like how (s)he was dressed..." probably won't cut it.

[gina_taylor]

Sorry for the delay ladies. Now first off, you're absolutely right theer Vicki, it probably is safer in Miami or even Tampa for CD's. I've actually found it to be gender friendlly in Sarasota and Fort Myers, but I really think that because Port Charlotte is a retirement community that the elderly residents wouldn't put up with something like this. But the strange thing is, is that as they're dying off, they're leaving everything to their kids and that's a younger generation. So lately I've been going to the two aforementioned places a little more.

Now Jerigurl, as I said, the flea market owner felt uncomfortable with me in thre, and it was she that had contacted the police. If it wasn't for the fact that I wasn't a few steps ahead of the officer when exiting, I probably would have been escorted out. But as said, my intentions was to see my friend and then leave, and I feel that I don't draw too much attention to myself either with the way I'm dressed. Take a look at  my avatar. That's the way I always look. But just to avoid any problems and also getting arrested I haven't returned there dressed.

I'm sorry Tarasita, but I have been periodically checking both newspsapers and I've seen nothing yet.

That's very corret Caitlin. The Flea Market is a public place so anyone should be able to go in there without fearing getting thrown out unless they're there to do something crimeful. Most of the people know me theer , so it really shouldn't have made any difference. I went up to the consession and bought two sodas and the clerk there posed no threat to me and I posed no threat to her, and my friend thought I looked fairly pretty. I guess the owner is just trying to keep her place 'respectable', but she's brought herself out to the limelight now by showing her true colors.

Gina