Seeking Advice

[T90]

Hello everyone.

I hope it's ok to start a new topic with my first post, but if possible I would really appreciate any advice in helping me with identification and ways to move forward. A little background first:

I'm a 23yr old MAAB who has had difficulty accepting myself as being a man my entire life, in fact there's never been a single day where I've felt like I was a man. As a child I was banned (literally) from every hairdressers in the county due to the fact that I would kick, scream, and cry at having my hair cut. From the very youngest age I was determined to have long hair. During my childhood I would also on occasion use the girl's bathroom, as I didn't feel comfortable going in with the boys. I also recall wearing nail polish on several occasion back then, but that's probably not that important. 

As I've grown up I have felt increasingly uncomfortable around men. Not necessarily all men of course, but being around macho men makes me extremely uncomfortable. I find myself, when out and about, frequently looking at women and wishing that I could be like them, especially in appearance. I haven't been able to look at my own reflection for a couple of years now without feeling uncomfortable at the male face that stares back.

While I have all these feelings, I feel no desire to have the body of a woman. I desperately want to look like a woman, and pass as one, but I'm fine with retaining a male body. At 5 foot 5 inches tall and weighing about 110 pounds I'm hoping that I could convincingly pass as a woman were I to start dressing like one and wearing make up. I see myself comfortable in feminine clothing although maybe not skirts. My hair is currently shoulder length although I'm worried that it won't look feminine when it's longer. I am straight, in that I'm only attracted to women, but I know that has no bearing on gender at all. Do my feelings suggest Gender-queer, Gender-fluid or what?

I contacted a local LGBT group recently and they have put me in touch with a Non Binary support group in Edinburgh. Based on my background do you think that such a group would be of benefit to me? If you've been to such a group, would they help me achieve the gender expression I'm looking for, as I have no idea how to do make up and things. Also, does anyone have any tips for passing as female in regards to hair and appearance etc.

Apologies if this was something of a rambling post but I look forward to reading any replies. 

[JulieBlair]

Welcome!
You live in the land of my ancestors  ,  A moderator will be along shortly to bring you up to speed on the rules, and there are some.  Take a look ath the terms of service.  But a couple of things come to mind.  First gender issues, particularly dysphoria can be a little tricky.  That you are questioning is exactly the right place to start.  Please get in the queue to talk to a gender specialist if possible, this is a big deal, the choices you make now will forever be a part of your future.  Most of us start out cross dressing.  The first time you go out pretty and dressed is actually magical.  Scary as hell, but magical.  Do it with someone who you trust, guy or girl doesn't matter, trust is the important thing.  Someone from a non binary support group might be spot on.

What you are doing right now is discovery and trying things on to see what fits.  It is so very wonderful that you are doing it now, rather than waiting a few decades until you become crazy as batsh_t.  What you discover isn't as important as that you are seeking.  That you had the moxie to post here, to me indicates that gender is an issue for you, and an important one.  There is no reason to be afraid of exploration, where it takes you will be towards an authentic life living fully as you wish to be.  Not knowing where that is or how it will look is fine and good.  You are among friends,

Julie

[suzifrommd]

I contacted a local LGBT group recently and they have put me in touch with a Non Binary support group in Edinburgh. Based on my background do you think that such a group would be of benefit to me? If you've been to such a group, would they help me achieve the gender expression I'm looking for, as I have no idea how to do make up and things. Also, does anyone have any tips for passing as female in regards to hair and appearance etc.

Apologies if this was something of a rambling post but I look forward to reading any replies. 

Sounds like a great idea. There is absolutely nothing in my area for non-binary people.

Though you might find that an awful lot of binary trans women also don't want a female body, just to pass as a female.

You may find passing requires you to feminize your body - remove hair from arms, legs, etc. If by female body, you mean genital surgery, well an awful lot of binary trans women are ok without genital surgery, so that doesn't necessary make you non-binary.

As for passing tips, if you spend some time in the MtF area, you'll get more than you need. The most important tip of all would be, "Female everywhere you look." If they look at any part of you and see something unmistakably male, it doesn't matter what the rest of you looks like, you'll be clocked. Here's what I've learned:
* Cover up all beard shadow with foundation.
* Cover up your forehead and eyebrows with bangs or glasses if you have a male shaped forehead and eyebrow ridge.
* Learn feminine mannerisms. Really important. If you're stiff and lumbering, you'll be easy to spot.
* Voice is important. If you want to pass as a woman, you'll need to remove the male resonance from your voice (that's more important than pitch).
* Make sure that arm, leg, and body hair is gone or not showing. Male body hair does not look like female body hair.
* If you have a wide chin, adopt a hair style that "frames" the face so that it appears elongated.
* Female accessories, like jewelry, earrings, purse, etc., help.
* If you have large meaty hands, or are really tall, it will be an uphill battle no matter what you do.

Welcome to Susan's T90. I hope this helps. Keep posting and asking questions.

[T90]

Please get in the queue to talk to a gender specialist if possible, this is a big deal, the choices you make now will forever be a part of your future.

Hi Julie.

I've often thought about seeing a gender specialist, although I've no idea how I would go about that. One reason I haven't really tried though is that I was always worried that they would only work with people who were wanting to transition through SRS, so wouldn't deal with someone who wanted to appear and be treated as female, while still essentially being male. I guess it's a case of differentiating between sex and gender again.

Thanks for the welcome.   

[T90]

Sounds like a great idea. There is absolutely nothing in my area for non-binary people.

Though you might find that an awful lot of binary trans women also don't want a female body, just to pass as a female.

You may find passing requires you to feminize your body - remove hair from arms, legs, etc. If by female body, you mean genital surgery, well an awful lot of binary trans women are ok without genital surgery, so that doesn't necessary make you non-binary.

As for passing tips, if you spend some time in the MtF area, you'll get more than you need. The most important tip of all would be, "Female everywhere you look." If they look at any part of you and see something unmistakably male, it doesn't matter what the rest of you looks like, you'll be clocked. Here's what I've learned:
* Cover up all beard shadow with foundation.
* Cover up your forehead and eyebrows with bangs or glasses if you have a male shaped forehead and eyebrow ridge.
* Learn feminine mannerisms. Really important. If you're stiff and lumbering, you'll be easy to spot.
* Voice is important. If you want to pass as a woman, you'll need to remove the male resonance from your voice (that's more important than pitch).
* Make sure that arm, leg, and body hair is gone or not showing. Male body hair does not look like female body hair.
* If you have a wide chin, adopt a hair style that "frames" the face so that it appears elongated.
* Female accessories, like jewelry, earrings, purse, etc., help.
* If you have large meaty hands, or are really tall, it will be an uphill battle no matter what you do.

Welcome to Susan's T90. I hope this helps. Keep posting and asking questions.

As someone very much trying to discover how I feel, I have always worried that it would be impossible to pass without at least taking hormones. Like I said I don't want to change my body, certainly not at this stage anyway, so I wouldn't go so far as HRT.

I think my build will help me pass though. Like I said I'm a fully grown man but I'm only 5 feet 5 inches tall and I only weigh about 110 pounds, so I have quite small feminine hands and not a lot of male body hair (except on my legs but I don't think I'd want them out anyway).

I did have long hair for years but when I became worried about feeling uncomfortable being a man I stupidly had it cut and am busy growing it back right now. If anyone can tell me how to post a picture up here then I could show you how I looked before cutting my hair.

Thanks for the welcome. 

[suzifrommd]

As someone very much trying to discover how I feel, I have always worried that it would be impossible to pass without at least taking hormones. Like I said I don't want to change my body, certainly not at this stage anyway, so I wouldn't go so far as HRT.

I think my build will help me pass though. Like I said I'm a fully grown man but I'm only 5 feet 5 inches tall and I only weigh about 110 pounds, so I have quite small feminine hands and not a lot of male body hair (except on my legs but I don't think I'd want them out anyway).

I did have long hair for years but when I became worried about feeling uncomfortable being a man I stupidly had it cut and am busy growing it back right now. If anyone can tell me how to post a picture up here then I could show you how I looked before cutting my hair.

Thanks for the welcome. 

Posting a picture is pretty easy. You simply post it on photobucket or instagram or another photosharing site and then use the the little picture icon to include the location of a picture.

There is a thread where people ask whether they could pass:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,177846.0.html

[T90]

Seeing as I wasn't trying to pass I'll just post the picture here if I can.

This picture was taken shortly before I (stupidly) cut off my hair. It's a bit of a mess here but I'm taking better care of it as it's growing back. 

What do people think? Would it take masses of work for me to pass in terms of facial appearance? (I may be a bit unshaven in this picture, which is less of an issue now as I've started shaving twice a day.)



If that doesn't work try this link:

http://s1301.photobucket.com/user/tn90/media/406390_3073214318516_289720205_n_zpsff3529a1.jpg.html

[JulieBlair]

Hmm, in the picture you are definitely a dude.  To pass, you'll have to style your hair to soften your jaw line do some shaping of your eyebrows  but with the right styling, makeup, and a smile you will pass most places

I'm sure there is help to be had on the MTF side of the forum, but there the observation that HRT would make a difference will be raised.  Don't ever do anything you do not want to or are not comfortable with regarding transition, no matter how well meaning the advise is it is only advise first last and always and not necessarily authoritative.  If it was me, I still would see if an appointment with a gender specialist can be had.  If they are any good they are not advocates for transition, but advocates for solutions that work.   In Edinburgh the following listing popped up

Dr Lyndsey Myskow
Psychosexual Therapist
The Royal Infirmary of Edinburgh
Little France
Old Dalkeith Road
EDINBURGH
EH16 4SU
0131 536 1000 or 0131 242 3025

OR in  Glasgow there are two listing that I could find quickly.

Dr Jason Westwater
The Gender Clinic
The Sandyford Initiative
2/6 Sandyford Place
Sauciehall Street
GLASGOW
G3 7NB
0141 211 8130


Dr David Gerber
The Gender Clinic
The Sandyford Initiative
2/6 Sandyford Place
Sauciehall Street
GLASGOW
G3 7NB
0141 211 8130

Peace and happy holidays,

Julie

[JulieBlair]

Sounds like a great idea. There is absolutely nothing in my area for non-binary people.

Though you might find that an awful lot of binary trans women also don't want a female body, just to pass as a female.

You may find passing requires you to feminize your body - remove hair from arms, legs, etc. If by female body, you mean genital surgery, well an awful lot of binary trans women are ok without genital surgery, so that doesn't necessary make you non-binary.

As for passing tips, if you spend some time in the MtF area, you'll get more than you need. The most important tip of all would be, "Female everywhere you look." If they look at any part of you and see something unmistakably male, it doesn't matter what the rest of you looks like, you'll be clocked. Here's what I've learned:
* Cover up all beard shadow with foundation.
* Cover up your forehead and eyebrows with bangs or glasses if you have a male shaped forehead and eyebrow ridge.
* Learn feminine mannerisms. Really important. If you're stiff and lumbering, you'll be easy to spot.
* Voice is important. If you want to pass as a woman, you'll need to remove the male resonance from your voice (that's more important than pitch).
* Make sure that arm, leg, and body hair is gone or not showing. Male body hair does not look like female body hair.
* If you have a wide chin, adopt a hair style that "frames" the face so that it appears elongated.
* Female accessories, like jewelry, earrings, purse, etc., help.
* If you have large meaty hands, or are really tall, it will be an uphill battle no matter what you do.

Welcome to Susan's T90. I hope this helps. Keep posting and asking questions.

Great observations Suzi, the support group near me is MTF, FTM, MTQ, FT idn butch?  The point is the spectrum is spanned, and  the venue safe and non judgemental.  I hope you are equally fortunate.

Julie

[T90]

Hmm, in the picture you are definitely a dude.  To pass, you'll have to style your hair to soften your jaw line do some shaping of your eyebrows  but with the right styling, makeup, and a smile you will pass most places

Well that was an everyday picture of me so I couldn't expect to look like anything other than a dude, which is a shame as it would be a lot easier if I didn't. 

I've already styled my hair differently as it grows back and I am taking a lot better care of it now too, so it doesn't have that lank look it might have had back then. What sort of style would you suggest to soften the jaw line? One look I have considered is the androgynous look, so blending genders without being obviously one or the other.

[T90]

In terms of an androgynous look, I think this would be the sort of thing I might aim for. I appreciate that Adrien Lebreton is a model, so likely a thousand times more attractive than me, but he seems to be a similar build to me and pulls of a quite feminine androgynous look (if that's a thing).

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/6a/f1/a1/6af1a1c3137f9916bfe8fa4c27957f5e.jpg

[JulieBlair]

Yeah, that would work.  Can you pull it off?  Give it a shot and post a couple pictures of the results.   I would love to see them.

[T90]

Yeah, that would work.  Can you pull it off?  Give it a shot and post a couple pictures of the results.   I would love to see them.

I'll give it a go. If I can pull that sort of look off then I could try to gradually feminise my self from there: clothes, voice, etc. I'm going to take up the offer of the Non-Binary support group and begin attending their meetings in the new year. Hopefully I will meet people there who will be able to help me with things such as make-up and hair. I have already contacted the group on Facebook and it seems a good number of them are currently seeing gender specialists, so I'm sure they'll be able to give me lots of advice. I hope so anyway. Going to the group will be my first major step I think. 

[JulieBlair]

Rock on!  A positive plan!  I can almost guarantee that you will find some fellow travelers who will be both supportive and helpful.  I very much look forward to watching how your path to an authentic life flows.  Happy holidays from Seattle.

Peace,
Julie

[Pim]

In Edinburgh the following listing popped up

Dr Lyndsey Myskow
Dr Jason Westwater
Dr David Gerber

Dr Myskow is private now - at YourGP [£230 an appointment]

The other two, and the NHS replacement for Dr Myskow, are NHS, so you need to either self-refer or talk to your GP.  In theory I'm in the waiting list for the Edinburgh GIC (now based in the sexual health centre on Chalmers St) and was told it's 6-7 months.  The Sandyford in Glasgow seems to be a longer wait from what I've heard, but they may also be better for non-binary as they're bigger/more established.

If you're interested in talking to a counsellor, the LGBT Health and Wellbeing centre over 8 free session, but the wait could be pretty long (mine was 5-6 months) or there are some private folk with gender related experience - see here - you can search for gender dysphoria, but it breaks the link on the forum, so this isn't a direct link to that.

Would you mind sharing the details of the non-binary support group - I'd be interested to see what they're doing as an Edinburgh based person myself.

[T90]

Dr Myskow is private now - at YourGP [£230 an appointment]

The other two, and the NHS replacement for Dr Myskow, are NHS, so you need to either self-refer or talk to your GP.  In theory I'm in the waiting list for the Edinburgh GIC (now based in the sexual health centre on Chalmers St) and was told it's 6-7 months.  The Sandyford in Glasgow seems to be a longer wait from what I've heard, but they may also be better for non-binary as they're bigger/more established.

If you're interested in talking to a counsellor, the LGBT Health and Wellbeing centre over 8 free session, but the wait could be pretty long (mine was 5-6 months) or there are some private folk with gender related experience - see here - you can search for gender dysphoria, but it breaks the link on the forum, so this isn't a direct link to that.

Would you mind sharing the details of the non-binary support group - I'd be interested to see what they're doing as an Edinburgh based person myself.

I'm not really sure how many people could afford £230 an appointment. I know I certainly couldn't.

I wouldn't really feel comfortable talking to my GP, who has known me for over ten years now. I feel like I wouldn't be able to speak to him properly after knowing him and going to him for so long. It would feel a bit out of the blue for me to go in one day and say that I wasn't comfortable with my gender. I'd actually feel far more comfortable with a complete stranger than with my GP (who I should make clear is a very good Doctor). How exactly does self referral work?

Pim, here is the link for the Non Binary groups website. The website isn't updated all that often but their Facebook page is updated much more regularly. There should be a link to the Facebook group somewhere on the website. http://nonbinaryscotland.org/posts/

[Padma]

Hi T90, if you're on facebook, there are some pretty useful and supportive groups on there. There's one called NB UK that's a secret group (if confidentiality concerns you). If you're interested you can PM me and I can see about getting you invited.

I'm involved in running a nb group in the south west of England - we have a forum that isn't very active, but has some useful info on it, and we welcome folk who aren't just from the SW. http://www.nbsw.org.uk

I'd agree that looking at your photo, the single quickest thing you could do to feminise your look is to reshape your eyebrows (if and when you're ready to "go that public"). I also would recommend talking with a gender therapist if you get the chance - in the short term, I'd suggest contacting your nearest GIC and just asking to speak to someone there, to find out what the process is to get referred (and whether you can self-refer there).

ETA: Here's a link with info, which states that you can self-refer, and has phone numbers etc.

http://www.nhsinform.co.uk/health-library/articles/g/gender-dysphoria/diagnosis/

[T90]

I also would recommend talking with a gender therapist if you get the chance - in the short term, I'd suggest contacting your nearest GIC and just asking to speak to someone there, to find out what the process is to get referred (and whether you can self-refer there).

ETA: Here's a link with info, which states that you can self-refer, and has phone numbers etc.

http://www.nhsinform.co.uk/health-library/articles/g/gender-dysphoria/diagnosis/

Thank you so much for this link. Like I said I really didn't want to go to my GP, as I wouldn't feel comfortable doing so, and I had previously been under the impression that GICs would only deal with people seeking to transition full time to the opposite sex, but it seems that is not the case anymore and that they can help with non binary/androgyne people. I also thought that you had to be referred to a GIC by a therapist and that you couldn't self refer. I may well just send them a speculative email, stating the same things I stated at the start of this thread, and see what they say. 

[T90]

Based on what I have said in this thread, does anyone have any advice on how I should go about self referring to a GIC? What sort of things should I be looking at saying in a speculative email to them?