Consolidated Leelah Alcorn thread

[Dee Marshall]

It hasn't been that unusual, historically, for people to say, "what's a little suffering in this life compared to an eternity of damnation." Not saying that they, or anyone that advised them thought that way, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[frances_larina]

I feel that it's a problem that the trans community is only really united when tragedy occurs but once it's over, it's back to business as usual as if we never learned anything from these deaths. This better mean something, I really don't want to realize that we only make progress with tragedy rather than celebrating accomplishments of the living.

A small start would be to keep the story in the news.  And, to push Tumblr to reinstate one of only two places Leelah exists.

"Tumblr helps parents erase the existence of Leelah Alcorn

"the Tumblr spokesman said: 'When a direct family member contacts us
about the blog of a deceased user, we work with them to provide their
desired outcome. In this case, consistent with our existing policies, we have honored the family's request and made the blog inaccessible to the public."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2895534/Heartbreaking-suicide-note-17-year-old-transgender-girl-DELETED-Tumblr-page-candlelit-vigils-held-honor.html

[wolfduality]

I feel that it's a problem that the trans community is only really united when tragedy occurs but once it's over, it's back to business as usual as if we never learned anything from these deaths. This better mean something, I really don't want to realize that we only make progress with tragedy rather than celebrating accomplishments of the living.

Not to be cynical, but isn't this part of any tragedy that makes the news? Human beings live in the moment more often than not, it's a flaw in our design. The only way change can happen is if the push continues past the "honeymoon phase" and that's where my optimism kicks in. This wasn't a private suicide, she wanted to make a point and it seems to be "sticking" better than many public trans* suicides in the past. That's the hope anyway.

[Cindy]

A couple of things I will say.

Yes this was a tragedy, and I hope to Goddess that her life was not in vain. Her life has had an impact and I think that is good.

I'm also mourning for the driver of the semi that she used to kill herself. That person will forever watch a child throw herself into the path of their truck.

Suicide in NEVER an answer.

I feel sorry for her parents. OK they are in denial, but they obviously loved their child and are suffering the grief of not only losing a child, but compounded by the vilification of others for not being 'good parents'.

I do not agree with what they did, but they followed what their religion taught them; in my mind, don't condemn them, condemn the mindless fundamentalist religions that teach intolerance, that cannot accept science and hence cannot accept that we evolve as humans through the eons and that our thinking and acceptance has to change with that.

I'm shocked, but not surprised, by the hatred of some of the LGBTIQRSWXYZ communities to the parents.

Why is it, we who suffer such intolerance and hatred, find it somehow comforting or affirming to visit those same feelings on others?

Suicide is NEVER an answer. Leelah was not let down by her parents; her parents and her were let down by society, by us.

You and I are society.

OK I'll throw this in the ring. We are responsible for Leelah's death.

Every time we do not stand up for trans*issues. When we have not been out there shouting that we are normal men and women. Every time we hide and hope no one knows; when we hide our shame?

We are transgender. How about being proud of it rather than furtive?

(My personal thoughts)

Cindy

[stephaniec]

Being proud of it would seem to be what needs to make the difference

[CrysC]

This is one of the best things I have seen after what happened to Leelah.  I just wanted to pass it along in case you have or know family that are stuck on Christian 'values'.  http://mic.com/articles/107654/this-catholic-priest-had-the-perfect-message-for-parents-of-transgender-children 
If only we could get more parents to be so understanding.

[Asche]

I looked over at the Advocate (http://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender).  Two articles about Leelah caught my eye.

1.  An article about Leelah's mother's explanations of what happened  So far, I've only seen references to Leelah's mother's comments.  Does anyone know if her father had anything to say?  If, as I suspect, the family is conservative or evangelical/fundamentalist, the father would have had ultimate say in things.

2.  Apparently Dan Savage is demanding that Leelah's parents be prosecuted.  IMHO, this is ridiculous.  For all that I feel that they are responsible, I don't think legal action against them would help anything.  What's needed IMHO is for the public at large to start considering it obvious that rejection of a child's transgender identity is abusive and not acceptable.  Social pressure, once in place, will be far more effective than any number of prosecutions.

[BunnyBee]

If you feel like you want to support her parents, read this, a post she made on ->-bleeped-<- just months ago:

https://www.->-bleeped-<-.com/r/asktransgender/comments/2km6yt/is_this_considered_abuse/

If you still do, ok then.

[Asche]

Suicide in NEVER an answer.

As someone who spent a number of years considering suicide on a daily basis and still sometimes wonders if staying alive was the right choice, I'm going to disagree with you.

If you have not personally experienced what a particular suicidal person is going through, or at least been there at their side while they're going through it, you aren't in a position to judge whether suicide was the right choice for them.

Standing on the sidelines saying, "suicide is not an answer" alway strikes me as awfully privileged; like someone standing on the side of a raging river telling someone caught in the rapids "drowning is not an answer."

[Miss_Bungle1991]

As someone who spent a number of years considering suicide on a daily basis and still sometimes wonders if staying alive was the right choice, I'm going to disagree with you.

If you have not personally experienced what a particular suicidal person is going through, or at least been there at their side while they're going through it, you aren't in a position to judge whether suicide was the right choice for them.

Standing on the sidelines saying, "suicide is not an answer" alway strikes me as awfully privileged; like someone standing on the side of a raging river telling someone caught in the rapids "drowning is not an answer."

I would agree with this. I've been in some pretty bad spots in my life due to gender dysphoria. I remember thinking about death/suicide on a constant basis from 06 to 08. I remember being out for walks countless times and I would see a semi or a bus flying down the road and I wanted to jump out in front of it so damn bad. But, I never went through with it. Spending everyday wanting to die and not doing something about it is just as hard as going through with it. The only thing that kept me around was the fact that I am a naturally stubborn person. But at the time, I saw it as a curse. If I wasn't like that, I would have been another statistic years ago. Sure, those feelings aren't around anymore (at least not that severity.). But, now when I get a very rare suicidal thought, I can push it completely out of my mind and shake it off.

But, to completely forget what that was like and how it felt wouldn't work either. I need to keep it in mind so I can appreciate how things have changed. It's because things changed as they did, is why I can get up and face the day and be glad that I'm here.

But when I read about stories like this, I would never think to myself: "Wow. What a coward they are.". That's completely the wrong way to approach it. Also, I don't really think it's fair to lay blame on someone that never had any contact with someone that goes through with something like that. You can't blame someone for an abstract idea such as not sticking up for someone that they never knew.

[BunnyBee]

Her parents actions are not that uncommon, neither are Leelah's.  This is the thing that needs to be fixed.

But to say her parents aren't culpable, that they can use their religious beliefs like a shield and blame can just slide right off their backs.  No I don't agree with that.  These things happen commonly (transphobic abuse, suicide) because society hasn't put it's foot down and said no yet.  I don't think it's a bad thing that finally it is trying to say no.  I don't think the outrage against her parents is misplaced.

The thing I worry about is the energy being put into the backlash.  I feel like that energy could be put to better use fixing society, creating a network of support, maybe creating avenues for trans children to emancipate themselves from abusive parents.  Idk... something.  Leelah's cause is a lost cause because she is gone.  Her parents cause is a lost cause because they stopped being relavent when Leelah left.  Changing their minds doesn't do s*** at this point.

I agree suicide is not ever the answer, but I will not sit here and victim blame.  She was the victim of an abusive home, she got stuck in a bad place and she didn't get through it.  It isn't her fault.  No.

We can blame the religion all we want, but in the end blaming an institution is about as productive as blaming a building.  Ultimately, we have to look to human beings.  If a parent is given the choice between a pastor's opinion and their child's well-being, humanity is supposed to kick in.  Above all things, parents, your job is to love and protect your children.  If you can't do that, you have lost your humanity in the deepest and most profound way.  Let's not assume people to be mindless sheep, like they come under some spell and then somehow can be washed clean from responsibility, and we have to blame some hypnotic entity with magic powers.  People should have brains, and empathy, and an ability to see right from wrong.  If you can't do that, you have failed the most basic tests of being a human being.  Don't blame a church or an institution.  That's a cop out.  Blame an actual person, or a group of people.  Please.

So yeah, I do blame her parents.  I do blame anybody that helped brainwash her parents.  But yet, I don't want to focus my horror or rage against them.  I want to take it and point it in a direction that might help the living.  Idk yet where that might be, but this really has affected me and has made me even reconsider how I live my life.  I want to make a difference somehow, and I don't want to lose this feeling.  And I certainly don't want to spend it all on some now-irrelevant ignorant bigots.

[Cindy]

Suicide in NEVER an answer.

As someone who spent a number of years considering suicide on a daily basis and still sometimes wonders if staying alive was the right choice, I'm going to disagree with you.

If you have not personally experienced what a particular suicidal person is going through, or at least been there at their side while they're going through it, you aren't in a position to judge whether suicide was the right choice for them.

Standing on the sidelines saying, "suicide is not an answer" alway strikes me as awfully privileged; like someone standing on the side of a raging river telling someone caught in the rapids "drowning is not an answer."

Is this the first time I have ever seen a post suggesting  my suicide attempts are more validating than yours?

Good lordy Asche.

Have a think about your post!!

[stephaniec]

thanks for sharing

[frances_larina]

Is this the first time I have ever seen a post suggesting  my suicide attempts are more validating than yours?

Maybe I'm wrong but I took it in a completely different way.  There are so many reasons to *not* go through with suicide, almost as many as there are people considering it.  Some get to the precipice, have some epiphany or realization or whatever and from that moment on, nothing in life can ever be that terrible again.  In my experience, they are the ones that tend to state that, "suicide is not the answer", because for them it never will be again.

But that's not everyone.  That's one personality type, one set of coping mechanisms and one set of life experiences only.  The varying degrees of self preservation instinct alone accounts for at least one dimension of the whole thing,  but some people back down from ending their lives out of guilt.  Some out of fear.  Some out of a sudden sense of the ridiculous.  And some simply break down.  Others stop themselves out of love for their kids or their goldfish...but still hurt and wish they *could* go through with it.  For all of those people the words, "Suicide is not the answer" is fair close to meaningless, or at best seen as someone else expressing their own experience, only. 

"For me, suicide was not the answer at that time" might reach more people.  For someone still contemplating it, even in some tiny little repressed corner of their psyche, "it's not the answer" can be perceived as just another way of telling them they are wrong.

[Beth Andrea]

And then there are those like me, who had their epiphany "on the brink", and remembering it for the next 10-15 years helped a LOT to keep me from the brink...but after awhile, Life has continued to bear down and eventually what was once a life-changing miracle becomes like a cheesy rerun.

[Amy The Bookworm]

You and I are society.

OK I'll throw this in the ring. We are responsible for Leelah's death.

Every time we do not stand up for trans*issues. When we have not been out there shouting that we are normal men and women. Every time we hide and hope no one knows; when we hide our shame?

We are transgender. How about being proud of it rather than furtive?

Hi Cindy!

I hate to say it ... but this may be the first time I feel I strongly disagree with you. Yes, we're part of society. However, and this is admitting that I don't know how things are in Australia, here in America in places like Ohio and Kansas and most of the Midwestern states and especially any state from Texas eastward to the Atlantic coast up as far north as right before you get to Washington DC... a lot of the time it's often just not safe for us to to do that!

That's why we go on line to find others like us. It's why you hear about people going through transition trying to find ways to hide it because while they want and need to start and go through the process they also have to hide it until they're at a point where they can safely come out. It's why a lot of people never admit to being transgender after transitioning (and there are other reasons for that as well ... I can't blame anyone for not being open about it especially in a huge chunk of the U.S.). It's why kids are tormented by parents and therapists in states (almost all states) where conversion therapy (which after reading up on some of what some places do to people is really little more than sanctioned torture), and why we see sooooo many teenagers on this forum TERRIFIED to come out to family, especially their parents, often instead deciding to wait until turning 18 or even putting it off until they are out of college before even thinking about transition.

And it gets A HELL OF A LOT WORSE if you're African American.

It's easy to say "Don't hide and just stand up and be proud" ... but there are some real consequences for doing that in much of the United States.

For the record, I actually do plan to be publicly open about my transition shortly. I plan to start doing so before I'm even presenting full time by talking about my artwork for college in front of about 40 students, and am working to find a way to display my work publicly. The only thing preventing me from going full time right now even though I don't pass is I can't afford to replace my clothing just yet.

But I can so understand why others want to be more discreet, and I certainly don't blame them.

And to those wanting her parents in prison ... there's no realistic reason to expect her parents to be arrested because under Ohio law, they didn't actually break the law even if we strongly disagree with what they did because we know how much pain that had to put that child through, but the law, and most of America don't. The United States doesn't arrest people based on petitions. The best realistic outcome is to try to use this horrific situation to try to get reparative therapy banned. But the real reality is, even if it was gone before her death ... there's no guarantee that Leelah wouldn't have still killed herself given the state of how U.S. culture often treats trans people even in states with more open laws.

...Fix society indeed. She chose her last words wisely.

[Jill F]

Hi Cindy!

I hate to say it ... but this may be the first time I feel I strongly disagree with you. Yes, we're part of society. However, and this is admitting that I don't know how things are in Australia, here in America in places like Ohio and Kansas and most of the Midwestern states and especially any state from Texas eastward to the Atlantic coast up as far north as right before you get to Washington DC... a lot of the time it's often just not safe for us to to do that!

That's why we go on line to find others like us. It's why you hear about people going through transition trying to find ways to hide it because while they want and need to start and go through the process they also have to hide it until they're at a point where they can safely come out. It's why a lot of people never admit to being transgender after transitioning (and there are other reasons for that as well ... I can't blame anyone for not being open about it especially in a huge chunk of the U.S.). It's why kids are tormented by parents and therapists in states (almost all states) where conversion therapy (which after reading up on some of what some places do to people is really little more than sanctioned torture), and why we see sooooo many teenagers on this forum TERRIFIED to come out to family, especially their parents, often instead deciding to wait until turning 18 or even putting it off until they are out of college before even thinking about transition.

And it gets A HELL OF A LOT WORSE if you're African American.

It's easy to say "Don't hide and just stand up and be proud" ... but there are some real consequences for doing that in much of the United States.

For the record, I actually do plan to be publicly open about my transition shortly. I plan to start doing so before I'm even presenting full time by talking about my artwork for college in front of about 40 students, and am working to find a way to display my work publicly. The only thing preventing me from going full time right now even though I don't pass is I can't afford to replace my clothing just yet.

But I can so understand why others want to be more discreet, and I certainly don't blame them.

And to those wanting her parents in prison ... there's no realistic reason to expect her parents to be arrested because under Ohio law, they didn't actually break the law even if we strongly disagree with what they did because we know how much pain that had to put that child through, but the law, and most of America don't. The United States doesn't arrest people based on petitions. The best realistic outcome is to try to use this horrific situation to try to get reparative therapy banned. But the real reality is, even if it was gone before her death ... there's no guarantee that Leelah wouldn't have still killed herself given the state of how U.S. culture often treats trans people even in states with more open laws.

But if we all try to completely blend in and hide ourselves, who will be left to fight for a world where we will no longer have to do that?   There is a cycle that must be broken in order for us to achieve our goals.  We especially need to do this in Red State America.   The more we hide, the less progress we will make.

[Wynternight]

Let's please keep this thread on topic and not get into a stealth vs. out debate. Please feel free to make a new thread on an appropriate section of the board for that discussion.

[Marcellow]

Parents of Transgender Children Need to Look at the Research
Source: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/01/08/is-it-child-abuse-to-make-a-trans-child-change/parents-of-transgender-children-need-to-look-at-the-research
Author: Jody L. Herman
Posted: Jan 8th, 2014

"Leelah Alcorn's parents may have thought they were doing the right things for their child, but research shows the experiences Leelah described in her suicide note increase the likelihood of a suicide attempt. Parents need to know what will keep transgender children alive, healthy and happy – and what increases risk."

[Dee Marshall]

This is highly unusual and gratifying. I'm a recovering news junkie. I used to read the NY Times from cover to cover. Generally these op eds "debates" cover all sides of the issue. This is the first one I remember seeing that has no one taking the "con" side.