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Belief

Started by NicholeW., August 20, 2007, 01:06:43 AM

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NicholeW.

Belief appears to me to be the one most argumentative aspect of our board lives together. The lack of it; the abundance of it.

I think that what I fail to recall is that belief is intensely personal.

It becomes too easy to find fault and doubt within someone's queries, answers, opinions, choices when they are not my own.

It's also problematic when I either know or think I know particular people. It's also problematic if I simply find enough lack of surety, validation, belief within myself so that if someone else's stated experience diverges from my own, I want to feel that they are lying, off the right track, or just trying to suggest that I am either wrong or lying.

Perhaps each of those things are true at any particular time. Perhaps it is 'all within my own mind.'

In point of fact, what does it really and truly matter? Provided the divergence is not a matter of fact: for instance if I tell someone that taking 600mg of Spironolactone twice a day is not problematic and that everyone who does not do so is simply delaying their transition. Now THAT should be challenged.

But, the way I might feel about orgasm or what is best for me, my experience or lack of it in certain areas. Are those matters somehow invalidating for either me or anyone else? Must I be challenged tooth and claw if I say I am of the opinion that I, no matter what I do, will never be a 'real' woman? (BTW, I don't believe that particular little adage, but some do. And yes, I have had arguments with people on boards about that very matter.)

Finally, we are all profoundly alone, We are all profoundly responsible for our own comfort, and lack of it, in this process of transition. I am also profoundly responsible for my own validation. No one else is going to provide me with that, no matter how badly I wish for them to.

I can make judgements about others; I imagine we all do so. But, the judgements I can best make are those merely about myself. If another does not believe that she can be a 'real woman,' but only an approximation of one due to chromosomes, lack of socialization at a young age, lack of a vagina/vulva from birth, etc, etc, does her opinion that she feels deeply enough within herself to post on a board (or as an exercise in trolling) really invalidate my own view of myself? That I am as real a woman as any gg, any other transwoman, real as granite?

I admit that I am just as subject to this syndrome as anyone else. I find it my largest flaw. I also find that given some time after I read it, I can remember who I am and not feel like I must resort to a nasty retort and join an argument.

Perhaps someone does think of me as delusional. Okay, they are allowed. Does that opinion make me so? You may answer that for yourself, but I shall answer 'no.'

I believe that we have all received such opinions throughout our lives. Like any survivors of any other sort of trauma, we tend to be very reactive when we hear such things. I find that I can be less reactive if I weigh myself for a while prior to responding. Often, I simply do not respond, when I am able to get a grip on myself. Sometimes I just react and write. That is usually problematic for me.

Please try to understand that I am not casting this opinion about to touch anyone but myself. I own the reactions, the thoughts, on occasion, that someone else is maybe not telling the truth or putting on a board pose, or answering with a 'party line.' I own that sometimes I will read a response and believe that I see within that response a great deal of discomfort, bragging, delusion, silliness, etc, etc.

But, if it were me would I want you to very bluntly put it to me that you thought that about me?

With all the WWJD, WWBD, WWMD I think that maybe the most important WWD is the one I sometimes disregard: what would I do if that were me? WWID?

Perhaps what is lacking is belief within myself that is able to withstand the taunts, sneers and disbelief of my sisters and brothers in transition.

I have made a fairly strong barrier against responses that I get like that from nons. Why do I have more difficulty building that same barrier when it comes to others who experience lives that are/have been/will be somewhat similar to my own? 

Nichole

   
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Nero

Good morning Nichole.

Must admit I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this. :laugh:
Are you suggesting we keep our opinions to ourselves? I believe in constructive criticism. When I step over the line on this board, I am called on it - by friends and strangers alike.
We all come from different backgrounds and experiences, we all have something unique and significant to bring to the table.
We should be open to the perspectives of others. We just might learn something. Never hold back.

Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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NicholeW.

#2
Hi, Nero:


Where I thought I was going was saying that if I weigh my reactions, then maybe I conclude that a vociferous and hurtful argument is not necessary.

Maybe if I do that, I can approach a disagreement as just that, rather than as a war I must win. That might mean that some disagreements are simply not worth my while, and that others are, but, I might choose a better way to air them than my initial response might be. What does it cost me, if something sends a wave of revulsion or anger through me to simply weigh myself and see where that is coming from, rather than to immediately respond with something in the heat of my revulsion or anger?

No, I am not saying we should not disagree. I am saying that I often need some time before I respond to make a less than angry response to some things. My realness or lack of it being one. My intelligence and discernment being others, and my take on how someone else might respond to something I believe myself to know something about being a third.

Blunt can be very effective in some regards, but I believe that I, and maybe others, deliver blunt a bit better when I'm not in a totally reactive mode.

The post wasn't meant as preachy. I really was talking about me and how I will sometimes react when I should probably leave my comments for after I have absorbed my initial reactions. When I do that, I am usually better able not to be totally harsh and dismissive of others.

Kinda vainly publically thinking about myself.

Nichole
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candifla

I think some people just like to argue.

Others think they're all that.

I'd like to take a bat to their knees Tonya Harding style.

booyah!
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Elizabeth

I see it like this. And I mean that quite literally. My eyes, my ears, my sense of smell, my ears, my sense of touch all tell me about the world and universe. The entire universe only exists for me, as my brain interprets it. That means for me, the entire reality of the world is also only in my brain. At least for me. My reality. And based on the complexity of the brain, it's reasonable to assume that we all have our own reality in our own brains, created by our own senses and our interpretation of them.

So if I am not what I say I am in your reality? That is cool with me. I only need to be who I want in my reality. That is the only place that matters for me. I think a lot of people are figuring out that it doesn't matter how many other people see you as your target gender in their reality, as long as you see yourself as your target gender in your own reality.

And once you see yourself as your target gender in your own reality, it really stops mattering what people think in their own reality, because is has no impact on my own reality. Because I choose not to allow it. I think what Nicole is saying is that she thinks she should stop worrying about other people's reality and focus about how she feels about her own reality. At least, that is what I got out of it.

Love always,
Elizabeth
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candifla

This is why I've stopped discussing: religion, politics, meaning of life, abortion, death penalty, and probably now TSism... it just doesn't get you anywhere.

Thank goodness for the sports and computer forums, at least THEY have numbers and stats to back up their arguments.

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Elizabeth

Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on August 20, 2007, 02:33:01 AM
This is why I've stopped discussing: religion, politics, meaning of life, abortion, death penalty, and probably now TSism... it just doesn't get you anywhere.

Thank goodness for the sports and computer forums, at least THEY have numbers and stats to back up their arguments.



There are many arguments that people have that have no clear right or wrong. Some things are about philosophy and philosophy must be discussed to consider them. It's not just how people feel about things, but why they feel that way. That can change minds. When I hear someone talking about how they have felt, I can go "yeah, I remember feeling that way too". Maybe something that someone else is going to say will be relevant to me. But I can only decide if I get exposed to it.

So for me, discussing these subjects is not a problem. They are subjects that people have always talked about. I think it's a part of what we are. What makes us social creatures to begin with? I mean, what are we all doing here? Why do we come here to read what others have to say and then respond to it? I don't know, it seems like we really can't help it. I love it, that's why I do it.

I get to hear what everyone else thinks. Some times is validates me, sometimes it makes me think, sometimes it angers me, sometimes it makes me sad, some times it makes me laff out loud, sometimes it makes me feel loved and accepted. That is probably the biggest reason. I get a sense of acceptance here that I really just can't get anywhere else. I mean, you all are "my" peers. The only ones who could possibly understand how I feel. No one else is ever going to understand. Anyone that has grown up not hating their body, can not know what it's like. To have to spend your life envying others. Who else could know what's like?

Love always,
Elizabeth
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cindianna_jones

I completely understand.  I enjoy many of the discussions in this forum that do not deal with GID and the associated problems.  I love the banter and enjoy other opinions.  It's an exercise for my mind.  What does it matter if I am right or not?  Nothing.  Who will care next week?

What does matter is that I can share something close and personal with another human being on a level that you normally never penetrate in actual face to face conversation. In this forum we are willing to bare more than we would ever admit to another person "in person".

This is an amazing thing don't you think?

Cindi
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Kate

Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 20, 2007, 02:39:40 PM
What does matter is that I can share something close and personal with another human being on a level that you normally never penetrate in actual face to face conversation. In this forum we are willing to bare more than we would ever admit to another person "in person".

This is an amazing thing don't you think?

Exactly!!!

I like you people. I like interacting, sharing, crying and laughing with you all. And yes, swearing and cursing sometimes too ;)

And in some ways, all these discussion are a vehicle to allow that. I'm not saying I don't mean what I post about, but it's not the ENTIRE point. I don't want to convince anyone of anything really, I just want to touch you all, and be touched back. It's a way I get to know you, see inside and into your hearts... if you allow me!

I told someone recently I kinda feel like a stranger in a strange land. It's... lonely at times. I play the games expected of me, I do the things you do in this world, but... sometimes it's just REALLY nice to hold someone's hand and just stand in AWE of it all, ya know?

Eeek. What WAS in that cake I just ate?

~Kate~
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Karla B

Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 20, 2007, 02:39:40 PM
I completely understand.  I enjoy many of the discussions in this forum that do not deal with GID and the associated problems.  I love the banter and enjoy other opinions.  It's an exercise for my mind.  What does it matter if I am right or not?  Nothing.  Who will care next week?

What does matter is that I can share something close and personal with another human being on a level that you normally never penetrate in actual face to face conversation. In this forum we are willing to bare more than we would ever admit to another person "in person".

This is an amazing thing don't you think?

Cindi

Yeah, I can relate to that! Last year at this time there was no way in hell,That I would have admitted to any of this. And there is no way this is something you can talk about to just anybody. We can thank our lucky stars for places like this, because we all have a load on our shoulders that we want to talk about, Things the average people can't understand or even relate to. :o
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