Why is passing so important to us?

[Ms Grace]

 

No bickering please...

[justpat]

   I guess I had better post a reply before this thread gets locked.Only read the last couple of posts out of curiosity and was not surprised by them.Anyway why is passing important? Because we all or at least most want to be respected and accepted by society as our gender and the person we are inside.Simple statement but difficult to accomplish,especially for those of us who are older and am not saying it is easier for those who are younger, but the older you get the more social conditioning and the ravages of time come into play.For those who are younger finances and jobs and a lot of other things come into play. Its is no easy journey no matter what age you are ,youth does have its advantages though and increases your chance of passing.I would say in the end all we really want to do is be ourselves and live a normal productive and usually boring life and not have to think about the sh*t we have to live with and think about everyday .    Patty

[Devlyn]

It was because you actually said you are usually in man-mode.  I wasn't assuming.  I said what I did because your perspective on it is from a person who admittedly lives in either mode where many cannot.

It wasn't a hack on you at all nor do I feel like your experience is any less valid.  But, to many, "passing" is important because there's nothing else, no other skins to wear.

I only responded as I did because comparing it to a contest seemed a bit like downplaying the actual need many feel for that holy grail of "passing". 

I'm learning soooo much from all of you and the different types of people who go through this so, believe me when I say that I wasn't minimizing your perspective at all as any perspective from here is more than what I have, even if it's not aligned with what my experiences are or will be.  In other words, I don't even have a cloud to stand on yet, much less a cloud of judgement.

Thanks for the explanation. This is me in full male mode at work, by the way. Do I pass?

[BunnyBee]

Dysphoria comes from receiving any feedback that tells you that your station in life is incongruent with who you are at your core.  Passing comes when you have minimized at least the external sources of that feedback.  It means the world sees you for who you are.  This is why it matters.

I should say this is more of a transsexual perspective.  I wouldn't speak for other segments of the community.

[mrs izzy]

Passing is a fictional person we see in our minds

It leads to anxiety, stress and fears.

We are who we are and that is what every other person out there are.

Just my personal life experience.

[BunnyBee]

Passing is a fictional person we see in our minds

It leads to anxiety, stress and fears.

We are who we are and that is what every other person out there are.

Just my personal life experience.

When we've stopped thinking about it, however the world sees us, we've won.

[suzifrommd]

Passing is a fictional person we see in our minds

It leads to anxiety, stress and fears.

We are who we are and that is what every other person out there are.

Just my personal life experience.

The anxiety, stress, and fears are certainly there for me. The trans women I know who know they don't pass seem a lot happier to me.

But I'll disagree that it's a fiction. It IS possible for some of us not to be recognized as having transitioned. It is a skill some of us can learn, and comes natural to others. Certain physical changes such as HRT and FFS can make it easier. When you meet someone, either they notice that you've transitioned, or they don't, depending on numerous factors, many of which are under our control. Our perception of what will or won't happen if we pass may be a fiction, but passing itself is a reality.

[stephaniec]

I'm sorry I still can't grasp the P not P argument . If my legs needed to be amputated because of bone cancer , but I was constantly afraid  of people  looking at me do I just die because I don't want to be seen as different . I'm sorry this argument goes on and on ad infinitum , but I can't grasp it. If a cis woman was  born with  51% male features what is she to do end her life because she gets mistaken for a man. Once again I'm truly sorry I just don't get it. Probably one of the biggest conflicts that prevents the advancement of societies view of the transgender movement is that if you don't make the cut  you'd to better off not transitioning.

[mrs izzy]

When we've stopped thinking about it, however the world sees us, we've won.

This is the truth I found through my therapist.

Acceptance of who we are as a person.

Not a gender, not a society's title.

If we can not accept ourself no one else can either in our minds.

[mrs izzy]

Want to add one last thing.

Not everyone can make it past there feelings.

Everyone is there own.

These words I posted came from working my own fears. Letting go was all I needed.

Anyone else is there own path.

[Hikari]

The anxiety, stress, and fears are certainly there for me. The trans women I know who know they don't pass seem a lot happier to me.

What I find is that there are basically 3 sorts of transwomen: 1. Those that take passing for granted 2. Those that pass but are constantly worried about passing and seem to think every funny look or stare is someone clocking them, or 3. Those that don't pass at all, and usually know they don't pass at all.

In my experience group 1 is the happiest, followed by group 3, then group 2. This makes me feel that if one worries about passing alot it is going to have a really bad effect on ones morale.

After I went on a 1500 mile road trip, across a bunch of states, and no one looked at me any different than any other woman, I went from group 2 to group 1 for sure. I think that my life has improved significantly because of it. Some of you might remember when I would post pics asking if I passed and getting all these compliments only to not believe the comments were sincere. It seems silly now, but I couldn't see anything but a guy in my own mirror even though, that just wasn't the reality of what was staring back at me.

[Miss_Bungle1991]

What I find is that there are basically 3 sorts of transwomen: 1. Those that take passing for granted 2. Those that pass but are constantly worried about passing and seem to think every funny look or stare is someone clocking them, or 3. Those that don't pass at all, and usually know they don't pass at all.

I would consider myself in a 4th group: I tend to pass most of the time. But I've reached a point in my life that if I do get clocked, I don't care one bit. Life goes on. I would never take it for granted.

[Lady_Oracle]

Dysphoria comes from receiving any feedback that tells you that your station in life is incongruent with who you are at your core.  Passing comes when you have minimized at least the external sources of that feedback.  It means the world sees you for who you are.  This is why it matters.

I should say this is more of a transsexual perspective.  I wouldn't speak for other segments of the community.

^ this pretty much sums up my thoughts on this topic.

[suzifrommd]

What I find is that there are basically 3 sorts of transwomen: 1. Those that take passing for granted 2. Those that pass but are constantly worried about passing and seem to think every funny look or stare is someone clocking them, or 3. Those that don't pass at all, and usually know they don't pass at all.

Great analysis, Hikari.

I think the problem is that I drift between all three categories. I have many days when no one bats an eyelash and my transition seems like an irrelevant detail of my past. Then I have days (usually the day or two before electrolysis) where my facial hair pattern sends the clocking boulder rolling down hills, and I find it's safest just to assume I don't pass. I don't spend a lot of time in that 2nd category, but when I've come off the pre-electrolysis days and I'm once more devoid of noticeable beard pattern, it's hard to get back into the mindset that I pass.

[Cindy]

Suzi, can I ask a question in this thread?

Why does passing or not passing worry people?

It may well be the same question, but a different perspective, yes safety etc seems a massive concern, and very understandable in countries that are blatantly discriminatory. But in Aus there is
little, obvious disrimation and the girls here don't seem to worry about as much. Yes some of the girls are terrified but that is the normal self fear crap, they get over it quite quickly.

So why does it bother people?

What is the fear of being yourself?

[Donna Elvira]

Suzi, can I ask a question in this thread?

Why does passing or not passing worry people?

It may well be the same question, but a different perspective, yes safety etc seems a massive concern, and very understandable in countries that are blatantly discriminatory. But in Aus there is
little, obvious disrimation and the girls here don't seem to worry about as much. Yes some of the girls are terrified but that is the normal self fear crap, they get over it quite quickly.

So why does it bother people?

What is the fear of being yourself?

Hi Cindy,
You have  answers to your question in many of the contributions so far. You are the person who is framing the question in terms of "fear". If you look at the answers, for many of us it is a question of self-perception ie. actually liking what you see (reality = ideal self) and just simple day to day comfort.
Donna

P.S. Maybe there is a difference in perception on this issue due you guys seeing everything from an upside-down perspective 
i

[Jenna Marie]

It's important to me because I hate to stand out in *any* way. (I hated it even when I was a guy; it's a testament to how much I loved my hair that I wore it very long even then, because drawing attention to myself filled me with terror. ) I am a very shy, quiet person who doesn't like public attention. Which is also why I say I chased "blending in" rather than "passing"; I wanted to go back to being invisible in a crowd, even if that meant looking like a vaguely-not-ugly woman my age rather than being a knockout.

There are still a few people who remember me from before and want to send me articles about being trans and whatnot, and more and more that's tiring, even though it has nothing to do with my appearance - I don't want to be constantly reminded of my past even though I'm not embarrassed or ashamed of it (I don't want to be constantly reminded of the years I spent in another career or running a blog, either!). So I'd be very unhappy if my looks meant that a) people perpetually paid too much attention to me and b) people kept dragging up trans issues when I wanted to focus on grocery shopping.

[Devlyn]

Someone used my gmail to send me anonymous hate mail about this subject. For everyone's information, I don't have a fetish. I was going to ask the Staff to edit me out of this thread, but I'm not going to let a coward determine my actions for me.

You see the picture of me, I go to work like this. I've known the people I work with for twenty five years. Up until three years ago I showed up in blue jeans, flannel shirt, construction boots, and a crew cut. Pure Mike. Then I grew out the hair and nails, and when the questions came I said "I'm a crossdresser, my femme name is Devlyn" They now call me Devlyn, even though I'm legally still Mike. They accept me for who I am, and show me respect.

Here? It's all slings and arrows about how I'm cheating someone out of their identity. You can all have the same acceptance from society I'm finding. Acceptance is everything, passing is nothing.

Hugs, Devlyn

[Donna Elvira]

You can all have the same acceptance from society I'm finding. Acceptance is everything, passing is nothing.

Hugs, Devlyn

Devlyn,
Sorry to contradict you on this, but I have lost my last two jobs because of my transition. The acceptance you talk about simply didn't exist and other than  risking a long, costly and uncertain legal procedure, I had no means of defending myself. 

Today, transition finished and at last pretty credible presenting to the world as a woman, I am setting up my own business with (male) partners who have never known me other than as I am now. Believe me, it has made a huge difference.
Those of you who have managed to get by without passing being an issue should thank your good fortune but, please, please, refrain from telling us "that we can all have the same acceptance from society as you are finding". It's just not true!

Other than that, for many of us, passing is first and foremost about self-acceptance. For me, seeing a woman's face looking back at me in the mirror was already hugely important.

P.S. The hate mail was not from me.

[BunnyBee]

Someone used my gmail to send me anonymous hate mail about this subject. For everyone's information, I don't have a fetish. I was going to ask the Staff to edit me out of this thread, but I'm not going to let a coward determine my actions for me.

You see the picture of me, I go to work like this. I've known the people I work with for twenty five years. Up until three years ago I showed up in blue jeans, flannel shirt, construction boots, and a crew cut. Pure Mike. Then I grew out the hair and nails, and when the questions came I said "I'm a crossdresser, my femme name is Devlyn" They now call me Devlyn, even though I'm legally still Mike. They accept me for who I am, and show me respect.

Here? It's all slings and arrows about how I'm cheating someone out of their identity. You can all have the same acceptance from society I'm finding. Acceptance is everything, passing is nothing.

Hugs, Devlyn

Being a transsexual is different from being a crossdresser, obviously.  Your relationship with passing and the things you have been saying in general don't ring very true for me and the way my life experience has gone, but that is to be expected.

Your experience is legitimate, so is mine.

Experiences even between transsexuals can vary wildly.  This really shouldn't be about telling others how their experience should be, because we're all different and we all come from different circumstances that can really affect how big of a deal any of this is.  For some of us, it can be a real nightmare; others, the struggle, even if substantial, is much less.