How do you Know When it's Time to Start Presenting?

[Seras]

Cool. "Viscerally" mean internally, by the way.

I know.

[Sydney_NYC]

It was last March (2014) that I started getting male fail. I started wearing feminine tops but I still had men's jeans (hadn't found a good source of tall jeans for my 6'7" self yet.) I started getting ma'am except for right before and after electolysis. Then what sealed the deal was I was at a client's office and one of the women (who has been a big supporter of my transitioning) asked if I had left a ring in the women's bathroom. I hadn't started to use it there as it was in an 4 story office building with a common bathrooms on every floor. I told her it wasn't mine and that I hadn't been using the women's bathroom yet. She then said to me that it was time that I did, since she wasn't seeing male in me anymore. I was getting weird looks in the men's room as well. From that point on, I went full time. Two weeks later I went on a business trip to Orlando to demonstrate our software at a conference presenting female the entire time (despite having a male ID.) Used the women's room the whole time and no issues. I was so nervous using the women's room at a rest stop on the NJ Turnpike with some many people inside. No issues at all.

[Seras]

I think you assume people have hostile intent when they don't Jasper and I think it makes you come off as if you have a bad attitude although you probably don't.

[Damara]

When I was getting gendered as female more often than not, when not presenting as female. That's when I started doing it deliberately.

[Obfuskatie]

First, there isn't really an end to transition.  Each step you take moves you toward milestones along the path of becoming your authentic self.  Think of it as an assisted process of learning to accept yourself.

Part of the socialization process for guys revolves around shaming each other for feminine/gay behavior.  It's a group dynamic of self moderation, and the group works harder to impose on individuals they see at risk.  If you present as yourself and confident in either genders, they won't hassle you nearly as much.  At least not for the same reasons.  And be very careful about reciprocating any flirtation, even if they're super cute.

I spent a little over a year transitioning in stealth, and didn't realize how much pain I was inflicting on myself by hiding myself for so long.  I highly recommend presenting as female in a safe environment as soon as possible.  The sooner you can express yourself safely, the sooner you'll begin to assuage doubts that creep up.  Ask your therapist if you can change before sessions in a safe place so you can at least present during therapy.  Having even one person see your presenting  as female and accept you is a very profound thing.

[Zora Nebesa]

I made the initial post about that in relation to your sig, yes, it is true.

I apologise that I have stepped on your toes about that apparently and I wish you the very best in your journey.

I was only trying to help.

Have a great day!

[V M]

 

Let's stay on topic people, any more personal attacks or bickering and penalties will be issued

Thank you

V M

[Jessica Merriman]

I went full time before HRT. I just got tired of living to other peoples idea's and home made rules of "normalcy". That translated into courage and complete belief in myself. After that I have no problems in public or have since day one. Passing is 80% total belief in yourself and without belief in yourself it throws a huge spotlight on you which leads to unwarranted attention. Free your mind and the girl will follow, I promise.

[Auroramarianna]

I went full time before HRT. I just got tired of living to other peoples idea's and home made rules of "normalcy". That translated into courage and complete belief in myself. After that I have no problems in public or have since day one. Passing is 80% total belief in yourself and without belief in yourself it throws a huge spotlight on you which leads to unwarranted attention. Free your mind and the girl will follow, I promise.

Please do not take offense at what I'm going to say as I really like and respect you, but... People gender you based on what they see and how you sound. In order to pass you have to least look the part. If I'm going out in boy mode, without putting any effort into presenting female whatsoever, no HRT, no makeup, I'm not going to pass as a woman no matter how much confidence or belief in myself I may have. You talk about courage and having belief in yourself and I do agree you that it's very positive to let go of all expectations and present as yourself if it's safe and does make many people respect you. So you may think you are not drawing attention, but in fact people are respecting your choice to present whichever way you want regardless of whether they see you as a man or a woman. Maybe some even clocked you when you started (because based on what I see from the avatar, there's no way you would be clocked now!!!), but they do have respect for your feelings and won't stare. When you're genuine, people respect you more. But that won't itself make you pass as woman. I believe it can be misleading to say otherwise.

Passing can be lots of work depending on how much you are masculinized. Hiding the beard shadow and learning how to speak in a feminine pitch and intonation is probably the most important. Then presentation and makeup. But whatever, what do I know?

[Jessica Merriman]

Just giving my personal experience in the hopes it would help.

I will go back to the pasture now. Maybe I should not have come back.

Good luck with your transition poster.

[immortal gypsy]

Personal experience here:

I was wearing girls jeans and tops, or skinny guys jeans way before I started HRT. They where geeky type t's nothing overtly feminine but I was already getting the odd "Oh <church bell> that's a guy". Hormones have just given me the natural shape.  Now I'm a jeans and t shirt girl (except my hunt for a tartan skirt in house of Windsor colours). So back then I wasn't worried about needing breast forms, needing to use the ladies, wearing a dress (I had long coloured hair). I presented as me you saw me as the gender you saw me as. I just didn't give one flying <church bell> what you thought.


Now for you:

This is really a question only you can answer BUT

I went full time before HRT. I just got tired of living to other peoples idea's and home made rules of "normalcy". That translated into courage and complete belief in myself. After that I have no problems in public or have since day one. Passing is 80% total belief in yourself and without belief in yourself it throws a huge spotlight on you which leads to unwarranted attention. Free your mind and the girl will follow, I promise.

This passage yes and these two points yes yes yes. Whenever you are uncomfortable in anything you will standout way more then you would if you felt like you belong or second guessing yourself. It may be a little bit rocky for you to begin with but if you hold your head up high and show the world you don't care. You will find all this becomes second nature to you, and you should find yourself having a different dynamic with those around you.

This can be a tough decision you have to make but passing is all about that grey thing between the ears. Once you believe you can do it you can, and that just takes confidence. That is what we're all here for.

Good luck on your decision

[Jasper93]

Personal experience here:

I was wearing girls jeans and tops, or skinny guys jeans way before I started HRT. They where geeky type t's nothing overtly feminine but I was already getting the odd "Oh <church bell> that's a guy". Hormones have just given me the natural shape.  Now I'm a jeans and t shirt girl (except my hunt for a tartan skirt in house of Windsor colours). So back then I wasn't worried about needing breast forms, needing to use the ladies, wearing a dress (I had long coloured hair). I presented as me you saw me as the gender you saw me as. I just didn't give one flying <church bell> what you thought.


Now for you:

This is really a question only you can answer BUT
This passage yes and these two points yes yes yes. Whenever you are uncomfortable in anything you will standout way more then you would if you felt like you belong or second guessing yourself. It may be a little bit rocky for you to begin with but if you hold your head up high and show the world you don't care. You will find all this becomes second nature to you, and you should find yourself having a different dynamic with those around you.

This can be a tough decision you have to make but passing is all about that grey thing between the ears. Once you believe you can do it you can, and that just takes confidence. That is what we're all here for.

Good luck on your decision

Thanks to the narrative! I've taken a little bit of a leap since I initiated this thread -- and yes, it necessitated a lot of confidence to do this -- but the last two days, I've put a not-even-noticeable amount of makeup on my face to feminize my complexion a little. I see it as my first step towards presenting, and whether it was because of the makeup or because of my confidence from wearing it, I only got sir'd\man'd three times at work in the past couple of days, as opposed to the usual twenty or more lol. I take people's orders each day, so it requires a lot of interaction.

And I'm convinced that the guys on my dorm floor have started assigning me to the "third gender" because they're picking up on cues I give out. Like a thousand times a day before my Xmas break, they'd say "Sup, man" to me each time I passed them by, and that's only happened once in the last week. Somehow it turned into "Sup, Tyler? (my given name)".

So, I mean, it's a process for sure. I feel relieved that the same holds true for everyone else.

[Jasper93]

Please do not take offense at what I'm going to say as I really like and respect you, but... People gender you based on what they see and how you sound. In order to pass you have to least look the part. If I'm going out in boy mode, without putting any effort into presenting female whatsoever, no HRT, no makeup, I'm not going to pass as a woman no matter how much confidence or belief in myself I may have. You talk about courage and having belief in yourself and I do agree you that it's very positive to let go of all expectations and present as yourself if it's safe and does make many people respect you. So you may think you are not drawing attention, but in fact people are respecting your choice to present whichever way you want regardless of whether they see you as a man or a woman. Maybe some even clocked you when you started (because based on what I see from the avatar, there's no way you would be clocked now!!!), but they do have respect for your feelings and won't stare. When you're genuine, people respect you more. But that won't itself make you pass as woman. I believe it can be misleading to say otherwise.

Passing can be lots of work depending on how much you are masculinized. Hiding the beard shadow and learning how to speak in a feminine pitch and intonation is probably the most important. Then presentation and makeup. But whatever, what do I know?

Thanks, both of you, for your contributions to my post! I hear oftentimes that passing is all in confidence -- even my therapist made this statement -- but to me, this doesn't hold.

In my own experience, which surely varies from that of others, I got gendered as female when I least expected it. At the two-month mark, a woman at a restaurant said to me, "What can I get for you tonight., ma'am?" I assure you that I wasn't presenting OR confident that early on. More recently, my mom took a pic of me and my grandma and put it on FB. I begged for it to be taken down due to how I looked, but many people asked my mom who the redhead girl was with my grandma." I have a lot of these stories. I just cannot see how confidence is central to passing.
I kind of wish it were.

[Jasper93]

When I was getting gendered as female more often than not, when not presenting as female. That's when I started doing it deliberately.

This has been kind of my plan. I think I'm at like 50\50 right now... Time couldn't move faster...

[Jasper93]

I think you assume people have hostile intent when they don't Jasper and I think it makes you come off as if you have a bad attitude although you probably don't.

*Alice

No attitude; I just speak up. Was I right about the negative reference to my signature? Yes.

Is it likely that posts made by that same person from thereon -- all of which weren't contributing to the topic, but instead essentially bragging -- were intended to kind of make me feel annoyed, at the least? Likely.

I'm over it now, however, and I acknowledge that there's a time and place to speak up. And I can't handle grudges, so all is well again.

Alice

[Jasper93]

First, there isn't really an end to transition.  Each step you take moves you toward milestones along the path of becoming your authentic self.  Think of it as an assisted process of learning to accept yourself.

Part of the socialization process for guys revolves around shaming each other for feminine/gay behavior.  It's a group dynamic of self moderation, and the group works harder to impose on individuals they see at risk.  If you present as yourself and confident in either genders, they won't hassle you nearly as much.  At least not for the same reasons.  And be very careful about reciprocating any flirtation, even if they're super cute.

I spent a little over a year transitioning in stealth, and didn't realize how much pain I was inflicting on myself by hiding myself for so long.  I highly recommend presenting as female in a safe environment as soon as possible.  The sooner you can express yourself safely, the sooner you'll begin to assuage doubts that creep up.  Ask your therapist if you can change before sessions in a safe place so you can at least present during therapy.  Having even one person see your presenting  as female and accept you is a very profound thing.

I actually think I'm going to give your wonderful idea a try -- that I should consider presenting as female during therapy. Can't believe I didn't think of that! I am essentially in pain for never getting to present. I refrain from doing so around my family so that they don't potentially feel uncomfortable, and concurrently, I can't quite present at school due to my living situation. I intend to mark "transgender" on next year's housing application, however, so that I can actually be myself without potentially drawing attention.

Alice

[bibilinda]

In my own experience, which surely varies from that of others, I got gendered as female when I least expected it. At the two-month mark, a woman at a restaurant said to me, "What can I get for you tonight., ma'am?" I assure you that I wasn't presenting OR confident that early on. More recently, my mom took a pic of me and my grandma and put it on FB. I begged for it to be taken down due to how I looked, but many people asked my mom who the redhead girl was with my grandma." I have a lot of these stories. I just cannot see how confidence is central to passing.
I kind of wish it were.

First, this is a great thread you started. And I love that you hold your position with so much conviction. For those who were not born intersexed and don't already have the advantage of looking more female than male even before starting HRT, deciding when and how to start presenting as a woman, is crucial.

This thing that is happening to you happened and still happens to me as a regular occurrence. Many a time I get gendered female when I least expect it (for example when I go out with my father in androgynous mode, because my parents don't approve of my transition), and yet some attendant, panhandler, or a kid or whatever, out of nowhere, calls me miss or ma'am right in front of my dad, but he pretends not to notice haha.

Then other times when I actually do present myself nicely, and I like what I see in the mirror to some extent (I never really like it completely, just tolerate it enough to have the guts to go out in public as a female), some idiot, usually an older person, calls me young man or even worse, "sir" and I am just as baffled by that as when I don't expect to be called miss. I mean, lots of times it's totally out of my control the way people perceive me.

But I can tell you this, and this is my personal case:
I consider myself androgynous-looking, not by choice, just by luck, even after more than five years HRT, orchi, trachea shave and other things. I wish I looked very female, but that's not in my genes. So, when one person is like me, androgynous-looking even if not by choice, but rather by fate, luck, destiny or whatever you wish to call it, THEN confidence plays a huge role in deciding your gender for others who may be trying to figure out what gender you are.

I've seen that when I am confident as a female, believe it or not, people who have called me "young man", suddenly call me "miss", like as if I was a totally different person than the one I was a couple of days before!

That is because when I am confident and really feeling like a woman no matter what the rest of the world may think of me, it sort of radiates into others, like sort of a feminine energy very different than the one I give out when I feel non-confident and hesitant about my womanhood.

But yes, the physical part is always paramount. When I like, even if just a little, what I see in the mirror just good enough for me to think "I can be seen as a woman by others like this" then I'm good enough to go and take the chance. But when I don't feel that way, many times I even decide not to go out, even cancelling an appointment if necessry --that hapened with my last appointment with my shrink and I haven't gone to see him again--.

Bottom line, IMHO, looks are the most important of course, if a person looks decidedly feminine naturally, even if she is super-shy --talk about Adrien in Rocky 1 for example--, she will never be misgendered, based purely on physical looks, and confidence becomes a non-issue in that case.

But if a person looks androgynous or "confusing" purely by physical appearance, then confidence, mannerisms, voice and attitude will play a huge part in defining her as a woman, when the other person is still trying to figure out the gender in a nano-second (like a cashier at a supermarket or a convenience store).

Bottom line: I'd say one starts presenting as female, when one is barely comfortable with what one sees in the mirror, enough to feel like others will perceive the same in you. And of course, a bit of foundation, blush, lip and eye color just to make your face look softer and have a nice contrast as opposed to a male face that looks plain, as well as a nice smile and a friendly face as opposed to a long serious face, will add an extra mile to your feminine appearance and help you not be mistaken for anything other than a female!

Cheers

Bibi B.

[Obfuskatie]

I actually think I'm going to give your wonderful idea a try -- that I should consider presenting as female during therapy. Can't believe I didn't think of that! I am essentially in pain for never getting to present. I refrain from doing so around my family so that they don't potentially feel uncomfortable, and concurrently, I can't quite present at school due to my living situation. I intend to mark "transgender" on next year's housing application, however, so that I can actually be myself without potentially drawing attention.

Alice

I'm glad I could help even a little.  I know my own issues with working up to presenting would have been a lot easier to deal with if I had a better outlet. 

For your family to start accepting you, I think you'll have to take a harder approach.  Remind them that it isn't your decision to become trans, you are transgender.  They will come around hopefully as soon as they see you happier.  At first, my mom wasn't sure how serious I was, she just knew I was miserable and feared I'd change my mind eventually.  It took me almost 2 years to show her how dedicated I was and get her excited about having a daughter.  I think she was mostly afraid of losing her son, which she did a little, but I'm still me just with better clothes and prettier [emoji2]. I'm also much less afraid of wanting to do girly things, or voice the feminine opinions I had.  I'm pretty up front and honest about nearly everything now, depending on decorum and discretion.


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