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too much E bad?

Started by melanie, February 09, 2015, 05:25:12 PM

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melanie

Hello everybody,

I just did some research on the web and found this statement on a forum dealing with female alopecia:

"Too much estrogen will convert to DHT which triggers hairloss."

Is that right? It would be an explaination why my temples are receding post op after I upped my estradiol dose (tablets).

Honestly I am confused since I was convinced that high estrogene was a good thing for us.

Also I found this:

https://perfecthairhealth.com/men-stop-thinking-your-hair-loss-is-due-to-high-testosterone/?s2-ssl=yes


Any suggestions?


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ImagineKate

No.

T converts to E not the other way round.

Too much E is either wasted or can cause DVT in some people.
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Muffinheart

#2
My endo cut my estrogen following surgery. My estrogen count was 700...should be 200-250.
  •  

Newgirl Dani

Not sure if I'm overstepping my bounds as I hold no position here, but dosage is a no no and not allowed.   Dani
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VeryGnawty

Lots of E can cause problems, but I don't think hair loss is one of those problems.  Besides, E won't convert to T.  Even if E did cause hair loss, it wouldn't be by the mechanism you proposed.
"The cake is a lie."
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ImagineKate

Mine is around 350ish which is fine. They haven't cut or bumped it up.
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KayXo

My E levels are around 3,800-4,000...no problems. Pregnant women can experience levels up to 75,000.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

AnonyMs

Can I suggest that people specify the units when giving E levels? There's two different systems in common use and I don't know which one people are referring to. The numbers are close enough that it confusing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Estradiol_during_menstrual_cycle.png
  •  

KayXo

My E levels are around 3,800-4,000 pg/ml, pregnant women can reach up to 75,000 pg/ml.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

AnonyMs

Quote from: KayXo on February 15, 2015, 11:27:06 AM
My E levels are around 3,800-4,000 pg/ml, pregnant women can reach up to 75,000 pg/ml.
That looks to be about 10 times normal? I don't understand how you could get that high I mean. I know how you could, but not why you would. It sounds kind of risky. Women may get far higher but they don't stay that way for too long.
  •  

KayXo

There is absolutely no evidence pointing to the fact that such high levels on non-oral bio-identical estradiol pose significant health risks. If they did, women who, several times, got pregnant, would suffer dire complications when the risk of DVT, for example, is quite low as I indicated above and breast cancer risk is actually LOWER in women who have more children.

I've had two blood test results so far, everything is perfect. Feeling great, feeling better than ever. :) Both my family doctor and endocrinologist (Cambridge graduate with 30+ yrs experience with transpatients) have no problems with the regimen I'm on.

I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

Muffinheart

Quote from: AnonyMs on February 17, 2015, 04:27:24 AM
That looks to be about 10 times normal? I don't understand how you could get that high I mean. I know how you could, but not why you would. It sounds kind of risky. Women may get far higher but they don't stay that way for too long.
I'm with you on this one. I'm thinking a decimal point is missing or something. I had way too high, and risky hormone level of 700 following surgery. My endo has cut my estrogen by 50% to get it around 250.
I Googled Estrogen, and what is normal:
Estrogen is the predominant female hormone; estradiol is the predominant form of estrogen produced in the ovaries. Normal estrogen levels, according to Fertility Plus hormone charts, on days two to three of the menstrual cycle are 25 to 75 picograms per milliliter (pg/ml). A higher level on day two or three may indicate peri-menopause, a time when the body's egg reserve is running low, according to a 2005 article by Jerilynn C. Prior in "Endocrine." Estradiol decreases in menopause to less than 32 pg/ml, and often drops to less than 10 pg/ml, according to Military Obstetrics and Gynecology.
During the menstrual cycle, estradiol rises to 200 to 300 pg/ml per mature follicle, according to the Malpani Infertility Clinic. As menstruation approaches, estradiol again falls to day-two levels if pregnancy has not occurred. If a woman becomes pregnant, levels remain high.

  •  

AnonyMs

Quote from: KayXo on February 17, 2015, 08:54:27 AM
There is absolutely no evidence pointing to the fact that such high levels on non-oral bio-identical estradiol pose significant health risks. If they did, women who, several times, got pregnant, would suffer dire complications when the risk of DVT, for example, is quite low as I indicated above and breast cancer risk is actually LOWER in women who have more children.

I've had two blood test results so far, everything is perfect. Feeling great, feeling better than ever. :) Both my family doctor and endocrinologist (Cambridge graduate with 30+ yrs experience with transpatients) have no problems with the regimen I'm on.
I'm not entirely clear what to say here, so please don't take it as an argument or offensive. It's your decision of course and I'm a big believer in making my own decisions. I'll simply offer my thoughts and take it as you will.

If I were to get this advice from an endo I'd be very concerned, caught between my own lack of knowledge and their supposed expertise. I say supposed as I know doctors and the medical profession in general have no shortage of incompetents, but many also do know what they are doing. I've no training in medicine, but I do have have extensive expertise in something else which has taught me to think very clearly and ultimately I'd trust that over any doctor. I do trust my endo, but I still double check everything he tells me (I may have issues).

I'm very cautions so when I started increasing my dosage to much higher levels I asked my endo what the safe limits where, and he said, exactly as you have about the levels of pregnant women. I took that to mean any peaks I'd have would be fine, and that if overshot the target level it wouldn't matter - it would drop in a few months and he would adjust the next one. I didn't take it to mean its a good idea to stay there.

I don't doubt there's no evidence of harm on high levels of estrogen. It's quite likely even, as how and why would anyone study it? Researchers are human - there's no money in it, and its probably not going to make any significant impact on the world. Its kind of like there being no evidence of smoking being harmful, which was also true at one point. I believe this argument though is summed up by the phrase "Absence Of Evidence Is Not Evidence Of Absence".

Wikipedia has an article on it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

I tend to the opinion that we don't understand a lot about how the body works, and that trying to stay closer to what normal and natural is generally a good idea. It's not always clear what that is, but for me I think it is in this specific case.

Anyway, do whatever you think is correct, because I certainly would.
  •  

Brenda E

#13
Quote from: KayXo on February 17, 2015, 08:54:27 AMI've had two blood test results so far, everything is perfect. Feeling great, feeling better than ever. :) Both my family doctor and endocrinologist (Cambridge graduate with 30+ yrs experience with transpatients) have no problems with the regimen I'm on.

Did your endo give you the reasoning behind raising your E levels up so high?  Given abundant medical literature and practical examples of the fact that one can transition very successfully on E levels an order of magnitude lower than yours, what advantages are offered by overloading so heavily on the estradiol?  A speedier transition?  Bigger boobs?
  •  

KayXo

I tried being on lower dosages and lower levels and results were just not good. Right now, on my current regimen, I feel and look my best, no doubt about it. I see no reason to change anything at this point. My doctors are keeping an eye on me, all tests seem to indicate I'm fine so far. :)

I'm personally well-versed in HRT, have extensively studied this field on my own for more than 10 yrs (as a layperson, I'm NOT a professional or doctor) and so, I don't only rely on my doctors. We discuss and exchange thoughts. They value my feedback and as everything is going well at the moment, we are all on the same page. :)

I've seen the range of estradiol levels going as high up as 640 pg/ml during a menstrual cycle, lab ranges vary to quite a degree and so do people. I've also, several times, come across papers where E levels were measured during pregnancy. Given the fact that women are still around, making babies, the world population is rising, heart disease and breast cancer seem actually less prevalent in women at a time when their hormone levels are at their highest (but they are also younger, certainly not a factor to overlook), given the large randomized double blind placebo studies that measured the effect of estrogen only, on post-menopausal women, or the studies on prostate cancer patients given quite high doses of bio-E non-orally, I can personally say that I feel quite safe at those levels. There is no data that I've personally come across that would suggest otherwise other than those studies involving progestins, non bio E (oral contraceptives and Premarin). This is only my personal conclusion and as my doctors seem on board as well, why fix anything if it ain't broke?

I plan to go see an expert in the field who wrote a book about female hormones, who advocates its use in post-menopausal women, to get further feedback.

To each their own, in the end. I'm open to data that would suggest otherwise, as always. Should you come across any information, I would gladly read it, share it with my physicians. :)

I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
  •  

AnonyMs

Quote from: KayXo on February 17, 2015, 05:19:17 PM
I tried being on lower dosages and lower levels and results were just not good. Right now, on my current regimen, I feel and look my best, no doubt about it.
That's a reason all by itself to keep it high even if you knew it increased the risk, and it sounds like you would have looked at all the ways to make it work at a lower level. At some point quality of life is worth a certain risk (not saying I know of  any).
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