*** trigger warning *** thinking rationally about suicide?

[cindy16]

I apologize in advance if this is triggering to anyone, but I really needed some help on this.
If any of you are in a similar or worse situation, I hope you can find the right help to see you through this safely.

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Ok, here's my question:
If I don't think I am really depressed or anything, but I still find myself thinking rationally about suicide, is it a sign that I need help?
I am not really thinking about killing myself right away, as I do have a bucket list of things I want to do, mostly for others, but I fear that once I get through those, or if I realize that others don't care about it, then I may find no reason to continue living. And then I end up thinking what would be the quickest, most painless way to kill myself. I find myself trying to estimate how tall a building would have to be if I have to jump from it, or wondering what kind of drugs may be easiest to access if I have to overdose on them and be certain of the result. And that to-do list - how soon will I get through it, and how can I ensure that no one will miss me?

These are the kind of questions that have been coming to my mind. I have been disturbed enough by them to talk it out with my therapist and my wife as well, but it didn't seem to help much. The therapist for some reason thought I was comparing transitioning to suicide, so maybe I wasn't clear enough about my intentions as I spoke to her. My wife was upset and told me not to think about such things, but it's not so simple, is it? All it does is tell me not to mention this to her again, but it doesn't help me get rid of these questions, and I keep feeling like I am walking along the edge of a cliff and the day that I feel like I can't or don't want to go in any other direction, I might just jump off.

Any advice about what should I do?

[suzifrommd]

Given what an amazing place the world is, I'd say not being able to find a reason to live probably IS a sign of depression.

That's what depression does. It distorts your emotional vision and makes it hard to see the good things.

My first advice would be to get screened for depression.

[Eiahn]

You asked if it was a sign that you need help.  My answer to this would be a big fat YES.

It is good that you feel you got stuff to hang on too right now, but the mere fact you are rationalizing suicide, is cause for serious concern!  If your therapist doesn't hear you, then seek someone else, but I would definitely not linger with this situation!  You said you are not thinking about killing yourself "right away"... that is scary!

It doesn't seem like you feel there is an immediate danger, but I would suggest to you to make your way to the closest ER and share those thoughts with professionals right away. Remember, when our thoughts process start considering something as permanent as suicide, like a viable action, it is better to be safe then sorry because there is no turning back.

Please stay safe! And keep us posted.

[Kellam]

I first attempted suicide as a teen and since then, 20 years, it has been a persistent thought. Worse when I am depressed. I got very close at the end of my alcoholic years. It was the thought of the statistics around suicide that restrained my hand, or pulled me back from the brink then. The main one being that the likelihood of a family member also committing suicide goes up when you do it. I felt I was putting the people I care about at risk if I followed through, my brother and father in particular would find it very difficult to cope. I haven't had any trouble with depression since I quit drinking, well not much trouble, but I still get those flashes. What pushes the idea out of my head is doing something positive for myself. Not just thinking happy thoughts but doing good things, for me not just others. The more I care about myself the less dying seems like an option. Now I realy don't want death in my immediate future, stepping toward transition has given me hope. I refuse to die looking like a man, I want to pass away, a wrinkled old lady, in my 90's like my Grandmother. When your subconscious makes plans for death try making plans for life. I see the self destructive thought as a line I crossed as a teen. It will take some time, but I believe I can cross fully back to the other side. And do seek more help, make it clear to your therapist.

[ImagineKate]

I mean, I think that the world has so much to offer even when it doesn't seem that way.

Even people stricken with terminal disease can defy the odds.

I have a friend who suffers with stage 3 pancreatic cancer. To tell you how bad it is, it killed another friend of mine in about 18 months. He was a great guy, a veteran broadcast engineer (and a navy vet) who has been all over the world with CBS radio and ABC TV, behind the scenes with the best of them. An all around good guy.

Well my other friend has been going on 4 years now. She took an experimental treatment and the cancer is now in full remission.

But there were days it was purified, distilled, 140 proof hell for her. She was ready to give right up. But she persevered and with the right doctors and support from friends and family she got better.

So yes, it does get dark but it does get better.

So I don't think there can really be any "rational" discussion about suicide because there is always an alternative.

[Asche]

I don't know if this helps (if not, just ignore it.)

There was a point in my marriage where I was noticing that the only thing I could find to look forward to was being dead.  Kind of that I had run out of reasons to stay alive.  What I later realized (after I'd gotten out of the marriage) was that I'd so to speak trimmed off pieces of my self in the hope of keeping the marriage going to the point that there was nothing left: I was just a shell.  It had come to the point of divorce or die, though it took me a long time to admit it to myself.  Honestly, I'm not sure I wouldn't have gone with the "die" option, if it hadn't been for the fact that I had two children who needed me (and still do, over 10 years later) and I could not conscience abandoning them.  The process of getting out of the marriage took two years and was a lot harder than dying would have been.  It was only after I came out the other side that I realized/decided that it was worth it.

If your situation is anything like what mine was, then maybe the suicidal ideation (I think that's the technical term for it) is about deciding whether some scary step that you are facing is better than dying.  I'm guessing that the "scary step" is transition, but it could be something(s) else.

Which is not to say that the possibility of suicide is not real.  Assuming I'm guessing right, it is a very real choice, and suicide is not only one of the options, it's one that people take all the time.  Transition (if that's what it is) is a long, difficult, and costly (not just in money)  process for most people, and maybe even more so where you live (India?) and there's no guarrantee that you'll be happier on the other side.  I'm not you or in your situation, so I can't say with authority that staying alive and going forward is the better choice.

But I hope you'll choose life, anyway.  (I think all of us here do.)

[adrian]

Hey Cindy,

I'd also say this is something you need help with. It may be that your therapist didn't understand, but it's also possible she didn't want to make too much of this because there are "more pressing" issues in her perception that need solving.

I have lots of suicidal ideation, and the odd moment where I have the impulse to act on the thoughts, but all in all these are thoughts and no plans. The thoughts bother me a lot and they use up so much energy, but I personally don't think I'm in danger of really doing something stupid. My therapist knows about the thoughts and I try to let him know if they get worse, but ultimately there's nothing he can do for me but make sure I have an emergency plan AND work on the underlying problems with me. So that's what we do rather than talk about the thoughts too much.

I have a bucket list as well, I can relate.

So I think that to some extent it's normal to have these thoughts. They are an outlet for something that needs to get out. It's not great to have them, and I'm not saying they're nothing to worry about, but they can be handled. It's great you have addressed these thoughts with your wife and your therapist, make sure to bring this up again with them if you feel the need to -- especially with your therapist. Make sure she understands the issue so she can be "watchful".

Also, please make sure that you do have an emergency plan laid out for when you might need it. Have a person you can contact and get you to the ER, or stay with you until you're stable again.

Edit: Asche -- I can relate to what you write so much, thank you for sharing it!

[AnonyMs]

I'd say its a bad sign. Being rational about it, we have very strong instincts to survive and it's not normal to go against them like that.

It also sounds like you need to find another therapist or psychiatrist. If this one's not helping it doesn't mean someone else can't, and its well worth finding out given whats a stake here. A psychiatrist is far better trained and qualified than a therapist, at least where I am, so I'd start there (and did for my problems).

Depression is an odd thing and hard to understand without having experienced it. Years ago a doctor told me I was probably depressed, and I was really surprised to hear it. The thought never crossed my mind before. I was as well, although I didn't do anything about it until much later. It may not even be depression. There's plenty of other potential problems.

I've thought rationally about it but only in an abstract way. Perhaps that's not good either, but you just have to mention something and I'll be looking for a better way to do it. I feel there's a big distance between that kind of thinking and what you're describing.

[cindy16]

Thanks a lot everyone for your replies.
I am fine, and your words have helped. I am sorry if what I wrote earlier was inappropriate.

@ Asche: a big thanks to you for what you shared. And yes, you are right in saying that here in India, it is very difficult to even think about transition. I know people who have done it (including some here on Susan's) and it is possible, but there is too much at risk as well.
Being married obviously adds another complication to my situation, but I can't imagine not being with my wife for whatever reason. She has been incredibly supportive and we have had a great relationship all along, and I know how hard it is for her to even process what is going on with me. She is trying to keep an open mind about it but I can understand if it's not always easy.
The same goes for other family members etc who don't know yet, at least the ones I care about. I have no problems with any of them and I hope they will be supportive when I tell them, but I can understand if they find it difficult.
About my therapist, she's been very helpful, and I think there was some confusion because I was probably rambling away about what I discussed with the psychiatrist, my general feelings on a day-to-day basis, and these thoughts about suicide and probably mixed it all up. I'll be meeting her again soon so will discuss with her more clearly what's going on in my head.

Now, when I am feeling a bit better, I do realize that there are people around me who deeply care about me and will be gravely affected if I do something stupid. It is easy to forget that and let my own fears and worries about transition take over to such an extent that I 'rationally' convince myself that I can somehow ensure no one will be hurt by my absence. I now see how nonsensical that sounds, and I hope I can stay away from such thoughts in future.

Thanks again everyone.

[Athena]

 I would say that thoughts of suicide by their very nature are not rational.

[mrs izzy]

I was there, attempted it, did not work, came out, now finished and dusted.

Here everyday still helping others.....

This GD is nothing to think about ending it all.

Trans lifeline US 877-565-8860 CAD 877-330-6366 http://www.translifeline.org/

Reach out for help, find support and do not let that rule your life.

Tomorrow being happy is there to live, the other is just a waste of a valuable life.

Call the Crisis line, 911 or head to your hospital and check yourself in.

Sigh!
Hugs

[Rachel]

Hi Cindy16

I came to realize my suicidal ideation was occurring when my normal defense ability was overwhelmed. Usually when there were high points of stress, lack of sleep and lack of doing what I need to do. I think it was my inner mind trying to direct me to make a decision (very difficult decisions). The scary part was when the mode of suicidal changed from a well though out plan then action out to the very event horizon to an impulsive act to stop the pain. The impulsive acts were really scary for me. It was like I had no control.

My first therapist would ask how I was doing (about the suicidal ideation) and I would say ok, there are a billion people that do not have clean water to drink. She would say, see how far you need to go to feel that you are better off. Then we would work on the things that had me on the edge. Eventually I realized (I am slow) that my in action to address what I need  made me feel so bad about myself was the cause of my desires to end my life. I then started to address what I needed to do. I still have bad times but I ask myself what is the underlying reason. I change what is changeable, accept the unchangeable and distance myself from the unacceptable.

I have this thing I think, how can I do this?   I look back on the issues I have tackled and realized I have tackled a lot of issues I had no idea initially how I would survive addressing the issue. I have a lot of issues to address still. However, I have tools now to help me  obtain my needs.

I hope you can develop tools to help you cope with your needed change.   

hugs,

Cynthia.

[Beth Andrea]

Having struggled with severe depression for decades, I understand your question...and before seeking a the*apist in this case, I'd have to ask "Are you having emotional motivations to do this? Or is it merely a curious mind?"

I often think about how I'd do certain things (like rob a bank, commit a murder and get away with it, etc) but without any sincere, to-the-core desire to actually DO any of these things. Its more of a thought exercise, solving a difficult problem with the least fuss.

Now, if one's thoughts go beyond the "clinical thinking" phase and actions are taken to accomplish the act....yeah, that's when BIG RED WARNING FLAGS start waving willy-nilly.

Hope this helps.

[YoungZep]

Please seek help. I was the same way not too long ago and it scared me so much I sought out a therapist and now on some stuff to help. I urge you to seek some kind of help.

[cindy16]

Thanks again to everyone who has responded. I am feeling better now, though not completely OK. Just being here and reading or responding to the discussions really helps, though.
I know that there are suicide helplines and some emergency response mechanisms here in India too, but I am just not sure how much help they might be. I am closeted and want to be that way for a while, so I don't want to seek their help and have to out myself unless I am in a really dire situation.
Btw, I'll be meeting my therapist again tomorrow, so I'll talk to her more openly about this.

@ Beth Andrea: It is definitely not just the 'curious' or 'clinical thinking' phase, but it's not really a dire situation yet either. Or at least that's what I would like to believe.

[adrian]

Hey,

I'm glad you're feeling a little better. Just please make sure that you have an "emergency plan" ready for when you should be in the "dire situation". I know it sounds counter-intuitive... if you want to die, why should you have a plan in place to prevent that. But still, chances are that the next day, when the worst is over, you'll have more hope. It definitely is that way for me, and one of my rules is not to act on an impulse. After all, if I really wanted to die, there would still be time for it the next day, of the day after. Sorry, this probably sounds a bit messed up, but it has helped me in the past.

Hugs

Adrian

[cindy16]

Hi Adrian,

Thanks for your message, and no it is not messed up because it directly addresses what I asked about. If anything, I am messed up for having started this thread in the first place.
I too avoid acting on impulses generally for anything in my life, which is why I was really worried that this was not an impulse but that I was calmly planning out such things. I have had impulses before which go away in a few minutes / hours or a day at max, but to start thinking of it so calmly was unnerving, paradoxical as it may sound. I realize that the best way to counter it is to have another plan in place to survive, and this one should depend on others noticing and helping me at the right time, and my being able to ask for help immediately if required. That's what I am going to do.

Thanks again
Cindy

[adrian]

Cindy, sorry -- my answer wasn't to the point indeed (rational vs impulsive sui thoughts). But it's great you're thinking about how to reach out to others if you need to .

Hugs
Adrian

[Jen72]

I am not sure this will help but from my experience anyway I will say some advice if you will. Firstly after reading a post awhile back I said we had a kindred spirit and perhaps the timing Is about same on our thoughts toward ->-bleeped-<-. Anyway whatever the case maybe I admit I did think of suicide myself calmly but my way of countering it was a simple thing of what could happen if I didn't do the deed? Basically find something that is a long term goal that you really want to see into fruition.  It could be something like it takes you a lot to save money and to save money to make a trip to see the pyramids or something whatever it is just something not easy to attain now but possible in the future. What I thought and it would have worked is I live near a river in an arctic climate but it had an opening in it I was thinking well drive into that and that's it but I thought of two words and keep these to heart.

WHAT IF?

I know that is simple but really what if you win the lottery or find a long lost relative or could be lots of things to etc.

Remember those words WHAT IF? You will never know If you give up.

I wish you and your wife well from the sounds of it she is giving you support just have to let her warm up to this shock. From my experience not even remotely the same but I came out to my sister her first response was "Whatever it doesn't matter to me" At the time I wasn't really sure if that was whatever I don't care or its ok. Now though I think it really is ok. But I did speak to her about a lot of things lol more then my therapist. Perhaps given some time on your wifes part maybe just maybe she could help you in ways you didn't think of:)

So what if she is your guardian angel:)