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Going Topless While Trans

Started by Butterfly, August 05, 2015, 05:56:08 AM

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Butterfly

(I moved this from Non-Binary. It's better off here. Probably)

I was designated male at birth and raised as a boy. So I have years of experience of being shirtless, mostly in my family home, but also at family and friends' houses, beaches, swimming pools, parks, and other recreational places, as well as just... whenever I felt like it. Which admittedly wasn't all too often, because I was always somewhat self-conscious about my body growing up (I remember sometimes wearing shirts to go swimming), but the point is that I was raised with the understanding that me being shirtless was A-OK in most informal situations.

I did kind of go back and forth on the whole towel thing though. When I was younger I would wear it wrapped around my chest, and as I grew older I switched to wearing it around my waist. But around the time I started my social transition, I switched back to wearing it around my chest - partly because I was trying to reclaim the old instinctive behaviors I'd ground out of myself in the process of learning to be a "guy," partly because of realizing/believing that if I didn't do it no one who saw me would think I wasn't a guy, and partly out of my own body insecurities and my desire to spare my friends discomfort (because a few of them weren't very comfortable with exposed bodies).

ANYWAY. The point I'm getting at is that for the last couple of years, I've been pretty set on keeping my chest covered, although I still consider myself a clothing minimalist (since coming out, I've found that I really like short-shorts and low-cut sleeveless shirts - not because they're revealing, but rather because they're so unrestrictive). I would even wear shirts at the beach and at pools again, just because I wanted the ability to "pass" as a girl (mainly as "not a guy"). If anything, I figured this was practice for when I'd eventually start HRT (I have, now) and start growing noticeable breasts.

But about a month and a half ago, I went to a gay pride (not my first) and for the first time I noticed how many shirtless women there were. Or at least, people with significant breast tissue who were shirtless. And I was kind of inspired, because lately I've been realizing how much I've allowed society's idea of femininity to control my gender expression, and I've been trying to fight against it. So I took a shirtless picture of myself flexing my arm, like Ronnie the Bren Gun Girl's "We Can Do It" pose, and I made it my profile picture. I did this with the understanding (going by recent reminders) that I am still legally designated as "male," and thus my breasts are totally inoffensive.

And everything went effing nuts.

I'm not going to go into all the details, but the major bits were 1) the picture was flagged as inappropriate content and actually removed, despite the fact that my FB profile doesn't even list me as female, 2) one of my trans woman friends basically denounced me and said that I was an idiot and that I was making all trans people look bad, 3) my mother came into the kitchen while I while getting a drink of water, pulled down my skirt so that I was naked, and basically said that everyone thinks I'm a whore. Which prompted me to then leave my parents' house to be homeless instead yet again (the last time was when they were trying to deter me from getting my legal name change). But the whole time I was crying and yelling at her about how effed up it was that she did that, because at some point in my life I stopped being afraid of my mother and started being angry instead.

The thing that struck me most about the whole thing was how ridiculous everyone was being. My mother, who spent all of last summer's family vacation trying to cajole me into taking my shirt off to go swimming, was now calling me a whore for taking my shirt off in the privacy of our family home, where I'd been shirtless many times before. My chest is somehow considered offensive content by Facebook moderators, when there are literally already 2 or 3 pictures of me on Facebook that other people took of me being shirtless. And my friend was telling me that I wasn't really a feminist if I showed my chest and that female breasts are private and should be kept that way, and it's like... I'm transgender! You're transgender! Legally, both of us are considered to be male, which means our chests are also male. And even if we weren't considered male, what happened to feminism being about gender equality and equal rights???

But you know what, it's fine, right? Eff those people and their crazy contradictory opinions, I can do whatever makes me comfortable. Right?

And then a few weeks ago I was on a family beach vacation with my grandparents, cousin, and sister, and I took off my shirt to put on sunscreen, and everything freaked out like crazy even more than the last time. My sister and cousin and grandmother were yelling at me to put my shirt back on, and i honestly couldn't understand what the problem was because I've been shirtless at the beach before, and then my grandfather walked up to me and growled in my face and grabbed me by the throat. Which gave me flashbacks to the time when we were on a family winter vacation and I had broken my wrist (no one believed it was broken at the time because, according to my mom "it was really broken you'd be crying a lot more"), and so I was tired and just wanted to go to bed early, but my extended family wanted me to go play outside with my cousins. I refused, and my grandfather or my uncle or maybe both of them responded by grabbing me (grabbing my bad wrist in the process) and dragging me to the door and throwing me outside in the snow without shoes while I cried and screamed. And another flashback to the time when I told my mom I'm planning to have SRS and she responded by pulling out a butcher knife and waving at me saying she'd cut it off herself right then, and when I yelled at her and threw a banana while attempting to leave the house, she started screaming about how I was crazy and had my dad help her drag me back into the house and then slam me on the hardwood kitchen floor when i tried to kick free.

So I got scared. And I slapped my grandfather across the face, and he let go, and I started crying like a baby while stumbling away and screaming at him to never touch me like that ever again. Right in the middle of a public beach full of people. Which you know, wasn't completely humiliating at all, or anything. Nope. And then I moved away, and my sister followed me, and she was still upset, and she started crying and saying the same things as my parents about how I never think about anyone else's feelings, and how unfair it was for me to do something like take my shirt off when I'm trying to make them accept me as a girl, except I'M NOT because I'm technically NON-BINARY, and THEY'VE KNOWN THAT SINCE I FIRST CAME OUT TO MY ENTIRE EXTENDED FAMILY AT ONCE. I just left the area and walked down the beach and spent basically the whole day alone (and when I finally came back I was still petrified to be within arm's reach of my grandfather).

But I'm so sick of everyone trying to guilt me about how I "never consider the consequences of my actions, and never consider anyone else's feelings but my own," when all I'm doing is being myself and expressing my bodily autonomy. They have no right to tell me how I should dress, or how I should talk, or how I should walk, or how I should do anything. It's my body. What I do with it is my business. Right?

Gods, this is turning into such a rant. I'm sorry. I just really need to get all of this out at once, and then I swear I'll get to the actual question.

Anyway, after that whole fiasco, I've only become more determined to not let stupid arbitrary sexist rules for women, like not being topless, control my life. I went to New York City with a friend and his other friend, and I basically spent all afternoon into the evening with my shirt off, because there were literally women with star-spangled boobs on Times Square, and if "female" ciswomen can be paid to be shirtless in public, why can't I (someone who is not really a woman and definitely not defined as female) do it for free out a desire for comfort? It's summer! It gets super hot, and I'm almost always wearing a big backpack (to hold important stuff because I'm technically homeless and just left college), so I get even more sweaty than I normally would. And I've been shirtless in public before, and I see guys doing it... so why can't I? The next day we all ended up going to the pool at my friend's apartment, and I had my shirt off there, too. And I was surprised and also really happy when his friend took off zir shirt, too (she/ze is also non-binary but is DFAB). And it just felt normal and nice to be shirtless and not have it be a sexual thing.

But I've been shirtless in public a number of times recently, and sometimes it's just really awful. The last time I was in the city I needed to rush around to various legal offices, and it was super hot and sunny, and i had my big backpack on full of stuff, and so I was sweating like crazy. And I only had the one shirt, and it was my Dad's birthday, and we were supposed to be going to some kind of rally later, and i didn't want to be soaked in sweat for all of that. So at one point I just sat down on a bench, pulled my shirt off, and got back to walking. But it was so bad. I know that people sometimes look at me when I'm shirtless, because I'm me and I'm trans and even when I don't notice (like in New York) other people will alert me to it after the fact. But in New York, the worst that happened is that some guy on the street asked if I was doing it for money, and another guy in the park wanted to dance with me and ended up settling for a picture with me. But you know, that's practically harmless.

But this time when i took with shirt off, someone in a car across the street immediately yelled something about how I had no tits (which makes even less sense) and everyone started honking, and some people who drove by did double-takes and started laughing and screaming. And guys kept saying stuff to me as I walked down the street, and some of it was harmless and I could ignore it, but most of it was just creepy and scary. A guy pulled up next to me in his car and asked if I wanted a ride, and when I told him no and kept walking, he followed me all the way to the city court house without me realizing and waited outside for me to ask if he could pay me to have sex with him. And when I said no, he kept asking to see my chest again, almost pleading, and it was so weird and awkward and I just kept saying no, and finally he got the idea and left.

And then I was walking back downtown to meet my dad, and these guys approached me, and I got nervous, and they kept asking about <not allowed> me, and I kept saying no and trying to ignore them. And then they called down the street to their friends ahead of me, and suddenly there were all these guys near me, and this one big guy was moving to get in front of me and saying he'd  me, and I just kept saying no and going past them. And then this woman next to them just looked at me in such disgust <not alowed> said "Really? Really? Why do you have to do that here? There are kids here?" And I didn't even stop, I just said "I'm hot and it's legal so I'm doing it." And I didn't even manage to point out how stupid it was that she was picking me out when I just walked past some guys who had their shirts off, too (my backpack straps were even covering some of my chest anyway). But all those guys were still following me, and then someone was whistling and calling from the other side of the street and saying he'd <not allowed> me, too. And I just started to lose it. I didn't even really look across the street, I just stuck my arms out in that direction and stuck out my middle fingers and kept going. but it didn't stop. The guys across the street kept laughing and calling, and those other guys were still right behind me laughing and saying things, and the woman was still yelling at me from behind them, and I just snapped and turned around and yelled "I have a dick, <not allowed>."

And I still have shudders from doing that. I know how stupid that was, in hindsight. It could've gotten so bad. But I just wanted them to all leave me alone, and nothing else I was saying or doing was working, so I thought that if I could just shock them, they'd all stop and give me a chance to move away. Or maybe they'd just think I was a slightly pudgy boy after all, and leave me alone because of that. I honestly didn't care about people possibly seeing me as a boy in that moment. I just wanted them to stop.

And all the guys got loud, and I couldn't tell if they were laughing or swearing or saying something mean (although I'm pretty sure one of them called me a puta) because I had already turned back around and I was hurrying down the street. People kept staring and I was trying not to cry, but i didn't want to put my shirt back on because that would mean stopping, and I wasn't sure if the guys had stopped following me. and then this one older guy kind of stopped me, and asked what I was doing. but he wasn't propositioning me, he just wanted to know what I was doing with my shirt off. He asked if I was a girl, and I think i said yes, but then he asked if I was transgender, so I just automatically said yes to that, too. And then he started talking about how I looked like a "real woman" and I was just... so done. I just kept going. And I finally got to my dad's workplace and got to put my shirt back on and then I went to my parents' house for a little while before we all went out to eat, and then I stayed the night before going back "home" to my friend who's supporting me while I'm homeless and unemployed.

And I just feel so... Wrecked by the whole thing. I want to learn to be proud of my body, and being told that my entire chest is somehow "private" and needs to be hidden from sight just reinforces all of the crappy body image I've had since elementary school. I like to be shirtless because it makes me feel empowered, like I finally have control over my body (which is weird since I didn't it before when I identified as a boy, but I guess it's different when you have a bunch of people telling you "no"). I'm not doing it to show off, and I'm not doing it to attract men or shock "other" women. I'm just doing it to be me, to be comfortable, and to reinforce the fact that I'm not just "a girl," but really outside of the gender binary... and I guess also to remind other people that it's a thing you can do if you want to, like the women/people at the Pride parade reminded me.

But all those guys and even some women took that empowering act of self-affirmation from me and turned it into something dirty and uncomfortable and scary. And I'm just so sad. And so tired. I want things to get easier, not harder. I feel like I've been fighting one set of battles in my life since coming out, and now all of a sudden everything's backwards and I have to do it all over again.

...There was a question buried somewhere in this mess, I swear. I guess I wanted to ask how other non-binary people or really any people at all deal with being shirtless in public and the harassment that results. But I guess this just turned into a sad/angry rant about other people policing my body. Sorry.


Mod Edit- Post edited since the same piece was posted twice. Also please watch the language. We know you bleeped them out and we appreciate that, but there was so much of it we still had no choice but to edit. Thanks.
Pronouns: "She/her," "they/them," "sie."
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Ms Grace

Sorry, that is a lot of text, I skimmed through it and doubt if if I have all the points. the one thing I will say is that western societies have sexualised and objectified the female breast to a considerable degree. In many places it is still illegal for women to expose their breasts - especially, OMG, the nipple!! That is why it might be OK for women to show their breasts at a LGBT pride event but Facebook will crush any sign of female breast as offensive. They've only just belatedly agreed to allow breast feeding pics and mastectomy scar pics. Yep, it's crazy and utter;y stoopid - but unless you can change the local laws or regs then you can expect push back and potentially legal fines, etc. As people who have gone from having "legal to display male nipples" to having "illegal to display female nipples" it is even more absurd.
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
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RoseH

I read the entire thing and I agree with Ms Grace. It's how western society is.

Also, I feel sorry for all the pain and drama you have had to go through in the past. You are strong to have endured it.


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AnonyMs

Hi,

you might want to edit that, it looks like you've pasted a large part of it in twice.

I'm M2F, and there's no way I'm showing my breasts. I'd feel a bit awkward due to social conditioning, perhaps unsafe in some circumstances, but also because the possible hassle is simply not worth it to me.  So while it's not fair and I agree with you in principal, this is not a battle I'd be interested in fighting.

It's not enough in life to be right, but luckily some few people stand up for whats right and suffer for rest of us, sometimes greatly. I respect that, but personally I don't much like the suffering part. I guess I'm no hero. Practically speaking, if you keep going down this path its going to keep happening. If you really need to do this, then go ahead I guess, but its going to cost you. If you manage to change anything, then my thanks for trying.
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wanessa.delisola

Uh, sorry, I know we're all here to support each other, but I have to say I dont agree with all that you said.

First thing first: Your family is toxic! Yeah, any family member that pulls a knive for the other or grabbed other by the throat are NOT someone you wanna stay close to. Put those people as far as you can from you. It doens matter WHY they did it (unless you attacked they first and they were defending themselfs), they dont have that right. I dont know your age (maybe you said but I missed), but, if you can, stay away from those members of your family.

Second: I dont think you should claim to be a man or woman by your convinience. Even if you are non-binary, you shouldn't just say "oh, now i'm a boy and I will walk without a shirt" and later "oh, now i'm a girl, I will my body as an form of protest". Yeah, you should be proud of yourself and your body, that doesn't mean you should expose yourself like that. You claim you are not a boy, but I readed a lot of "i'm legally a boy"... Well, you either are a boy or are not. If not even you accepts that you are not a boy, your life will sure be a lot harder.

Third: Yeah, it sucks that women doesnt have the exactly same rights as man. We're still working on that. Transwomen have even more problems. We're also working on that. So, be aware that, breaking the "rules" (beinf fair or not) you WILL attract to yourself a LOT of problems. You claimed that, after the neck grab episode, you decided to be even more active in the show breast thing. My question: Why? You know it will cause you a lot of problems, and yet, you decided to walk a lot whithout a shirt, and it even had a reason for that (oh, its hot, I get it. its hot for everybody). The problems started but even then you refused to put your shirt back.

Look, i'm sorry. I'm not trying to attack you. I'm not even wanna enter the society problems, that we all struggle the "traditions". It sucks, but we cant change the world at once. Somethings we take it slow. And maybe you should to. In my past I was a very angry "man" always thinking that the world was against me. It took me some time to see that half of my problems were because of me being ready to attack, and the other half turned a lot worse because of that. I'm not saying to you not be yourself, just that you should think before do certain things.
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Butterfly

First, sorry about the length and the messing editing and the overuse of swear words. I was running on zero sleep at the time I was writing and posting it, so I wasn't policing myself very well. I normally reserve this kind of stuff for blogging, and once I got going it was kind of hard to stop. So, again, I'm sorry about that.

@Ms Grace: I do understand that women don't have a universal legal right to be topless in public yet (although as I've learned recently, it's technically, if not expressly, legal in the majority of states in the USA), and I'm definitely aware that Facebook and other social media/networking sites practice censorship of the female breast. But I don't understand why I would be targeted in that, because I'm not female and I'm not really a woman. Genderwise, I'm not a binary "trans woman", so there's no logical reason why I should need to obey society's norms for women. And legally, I'm still designated as "male," so my nipples should be treated as "male" nipples, no?

My Facebook doesn't even list me as female. It's set so that it uses neutral pronouns "they/them/their" when referring to me, and my actual gender is listed as "trans person," "transfeminine," "non-binary," and "demigirl." And as I said, there are already shirtless pictures of me on Facebook, and those haven't been taken down. The only difference I can see is that I was more muscular in those other pictures, because they're from a couple years ago when I still worked out a lot.

@RoseH: Same thing I guess. I don't understand why the people around me are trying to apply Western/American norms for women and laws for female bodies to me when I am neither a "woman" nor "female." But thank you for your support regarding my past, although the majority of that is stuff that's only happened in the past couple of years. I stayed in the closet for a while, so now it's like I'm getting a concentrated dose of all the misunderstanding and ignorance and discrimination and hate that I avoided having to deal with before. But I recognize that I'm still actually really lucky. My family actually loves me and wants to support me. They just have a terrible way of showing it, most of the time.

@AnonyMs: I guess I'm the kind of person who is willing to take on the fight for equal topless rights, but I don't actually ~want~ to struggle and fight. I just want to be able to walk down the street with my shirt off, like I could do without problems only a few years ago. The only thing that's changed about my body is that I've gotten more pudgy and a little less hairy, so I basically just look like a "guy" with gynecomastia. I feel like the main reason I get gendered as female at all is the way I dress, so if I'm taking my clothes off, I would have expected some of that to go away... not get worse. It's all very weird to me.

@wanessa.delisola: I do realize that my family, particularly my mother, is toxic for me, which is why I've moved out and refuse to move back in with them. But at the same time, I know that they love me and that they want to support me - if only because they keep saying it. They just don't understand how to do that. Sometimes I actually wish that my family was a little less accepting and had actually disowned me when I came out, because they play such a small role in my life now anyway that it feels like it would be easier to cut them out entirely. But as long as they're actively trying to understand and be "better," I don't want to be that person.

I'm confused about that second part of what you said. I don't ever "claim to be a man or a woman by [my] convenience," unless you count going into the women's restroom (but I'm not actively saying anything then either - people just assume). I'm not saying that I should be able to walk around shirtless because I'm a "boy," (because I am most definitely not a boy) and I don't use my body as a form of protest because I'm a "girl" (which I sort of am). I'm saying that I should be allowed to go shirtless because I'm a human being, and that the few laws in place that would take that right away from me shouldn't apply because my body is medically and legally designated as a "male" body, and those laws only apply to "female" bodies. But "male" does not equal "boy," so saying that I'm legally male doesn't mean that I'm calling myself a boy. My trans friend who reacted badly to my Facebook picture seemed to have this same misunderstanding.

I honestly don't see how I'm breaking any "rules," because there are no "rules" for people like me. Rules and laws only really exist for binary gendered people, which I am not. Someone telling me that "women/girls don't take their shirts off," (like my family has) means nothing to me, because I'm not a binary woman. And concerning me being more active after the neck-grabbing incident... that is only because that bad experience solidified for me that being treated purely as a "woman" is not something I want. I'm comfortable being referred to as a girl and with feminine pronouns, but at my heart I am not just a girl, and I want the other people around me (especially my friends) to recognize that, because being non-binary is an important part of my identity.

I ~do~ think about the things I do, though. For example, I spent a fair amount of time arguing with myself before taking my shirt off on the really bad day, and after the first few incidents, I actually put my shirt back on for a little while. In the end, I took it back off though, because the most important things to me at the time were 1) don't get sick from the heat and 2) don't show up for my father's birthday soaked in sweat. I'm always fighting with myself about the things I want to do, it's just that no one else seems to see that. My family also says that I never think about their feelings when making the choices I make, but I do. It's just that their comfort is not worth more than my comfort - I will always choose to be myself rather than be someone else's idea of who I should be. Does that make sense?

Anyway, thank you all for your responses. I wonder though... Would this conversation be any different if I was someone who only went by gender neutral pronouns rather than gender neutral AND feminine pronouns?
Pronouns: "She/her," "they/them," "sie."
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Mariah

No worries, we all need a good vent sometimes. Hugs
Mariah
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask me.
[email]mariahsusans.orgstaff@yahoo.com[/email]
I am also spouse of a transgender person.
Retired News Administrator
Retired (S) Global Moderator
  •  

RoseH

Quote from: Butterfly on August 05, 2015, 07:40:26 PM
First, sorry about the length and the messing editing and the overuse of swear words. I was running on zero sleep at the time I was writing and posting it, so I wasn't policing myself very well. I normally reserve this kind of stuff for blogging, and once I got going it was kind of hard to stop. So, again, I'm sorry about that.

@Ms Grace: I do understand that women don't have a universal legal right to be topless in public yet (although as I've learned recently, it's technically, if not expressly, legal in the majority of states in the USA), and I'm definitely aware that Facebook and other social media/networking sites practice censorship of the female breast. But I don't understand why I would be targeted in that, because I'm not female and I'm not really a woman. Genderwise, I'm not a binary "trans woman", so there's no logical reason why I should need to obey society's norms for women. And legally, I'm still designated as "male," so my nipples should be treated as "male" nipples, no?

My Facebook doesn't even list me as female. It's set so that it uses neutral pronouns "they/them/their" when referring to me, and my actual gender is listed as "trans person," "transfeminine," "non-binary," and "demigirl." And as I said, there are already shirtless pictures of me on Facebook, and those haven't been taken down. The only difference I can see is that I was more muscular in those other pictures, because they're from a couple years ago when I still worked out a lot.

@RoseH: Same thing I guess. I don't understand why the people around me are trying to apply Western/American norms for women and laws for female bodies to me when I am neither a "woman" nor "female." But thank you for your support regarding my past, although the majority of that is stuff that's only happened in the past couple of years. I stayed in the closet for a while, so now it's like I'm getting a concentrated dose of all the misunderstanding and ignorance and discrimination and hate that I avoided having to deal with before. But I recognize that I'm still actually really lucky. My family actually loves me and wants to support me. They just have a terrible way of showing it, most of the time.


In this regard it's not about your legal gender or your gender identity. People who don't know you may perceive you as either male or female unless they have any knowledge regarding gender-nonconforming individuals. Humans like to put things into boxes, so when they first look at you they will either place you in 'female' or 'male' for convenience - based entirely upon your exterior. Unfortunately, the exterior makes people assume who you are, even though they don't know you.
So.. If they generally perceive you as female and/or your chest looks female, they will regard you as female.
Unfortunately the idea and acceptance of multiple genders have kind of been forgotten or suppressed in the Western world's general society.

I can't judge how your family is towards you since I of course know nothing about it. But from what you described, that is not what I would call love. But you know far more about that, it's good to hear that they are supportive  :)


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AnonyMs

Hi Butterfly,

I was thinking about what you've said and several things occurred to me

It seems that you don't understand why what you are doing is causing problems. I don't know anything much about it, but are you possibly aspergers, or have other problems relating to people?

I'm not aspergers myself, or at least not much, but I sometimes don't relate to people very well. I've no idea why, and sometimes I'll just pretend and go though the motions. Basically I know what works in a given situation and just act it out (somehow writing it down make it sound more extreme than it actually is).

I think you have to choice to keep doing what you want and suffer for it, or just put up with they way other people are and conform. Either way's not ideal, but I think you'll need to chose one.

Regarding rules and laws, they are not all written down. There's plenty of unwritten ones, just part of out cultural background and I think you're running into some of those. They can be difficult to see because we're immersed in them, but if you visit  country with a different culture they become more visible. You can argue with people about it, but they won't understand what you are saying. For example, walk down a city street naked - there's nothing wrong with it in principle, its our natural state; you could try to argue with people about how its only right and natural, but they would just think you're crazy (and if its illegal it obviously shouldn't be).

Corporations like Facebook and Google act in a different way again, and it can be difficult to understand them. They are not about right and wrong, but making money, and things generally flow from that. Its quite interesting if you look into it, although depressing might be a better description.
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Paige

Hey Butterfly,

I admire your determination, but you're taking on the world all by yourself.  Perhaps there's a group in your area that is actively trying to change this cultural norm? 

I know very recently in Ontario, Canada, where it's legal, there was an incident where 3 sisters while riding their bikes topless were harassed by a women police officer.  She ordered them to put shirts on.  As a result of this, they organized a rally to educate people that there was nothing wrong with women being topless.

Myself, I haven't transitioned, I have a hard time going shirtless, always have.  If I ever transition I'm sure it would be even harder. 

Hope you figure this out,
Paige :)
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Tessa James

Quote from: Paige on August 06, 2015, 10:18:46 AM
Hey Butterfly,

I admire your determination, but you're taking on the world all by yourself.  Perhaps there's a group in your area that is actively trying to change this cultural norm? 

I know very recently in Ontario, Canada, where it's legal, there was an incident where 3 sisters while riding their bikes topless were harassed by a women police officer.  She ordered them to put shirts on.  As a result of this, they organized a rally to educate people that there was nothing wrong with women being topless.

Myself, I haven't transitioned, I have a hard time going shirtless, always have.  If I ever transition I'm sure it would be even harder. 

Hope you figure this out,
Paige :)

I agree with you Paige and also have felt very shy about being topless even before transition.  That said I hope people will recognize there is nothing wrong with being nude or topless.  The human form is simply natural and beautiful in our many forms.  If no one pushes the cultural envelop, laws and people will not change.  Being a change agent does, of course, entail challenge and risk.  We are not in grade school anymore and the sight of a human breast really ought not  be met with giggles, or threats.  Lets grow up.

The State of Oregon where I live has enshrined our right to self expression and legal precedent has resulted in fun events such as the naked bicycle ride through the streets of Portland with police escorts (or at least their watching:-)   Likewise the Pride and Trans parades and festival feature plenty of people gong topless.  Big deal, the earth still seems to be turning. ;)
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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Dee Marshall

Just for context women being topless in public is legal in New York State, where the OP did it, but it doesn't happen much. I know I don't dare since the girls came in. I need to buy a bikini top. I'm tired of wearing a sports bra at the beach. I have a whole list of necessary purchases and that's near the top.
April 22, 2015, the day of my first face to face pass in gender neutral clothes and no makeup. It may be months to the next one, but I'm good with that!

Being transgender is just a phase. It hardly ever starts before conception and always ends promptly at death.

They say the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. I say, climb aboard!
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Rachel1

Here in Ontario, going topless as a woman is perfectly legal. However, you almost never see anyone doing it. The reason being is that it will attract significant unwanted attention for the person who is going topless.

Whether or not you like it, having breasts (regardless of what you are legally classified as) and going topless is going to attract a great amount of attention to you. You need to decide if that's something you really want to happen. Yes - anyone should be allowed to take their shirts off but culturally we are not there yet.

Either way, this is not a trans-only issue. Cis women experience hate and harassment over the same thing. Good on you for challenging cultural norms but expect to garner a lot of attention for doing so, and unfortunately, most of it is going to be negative. As RoseH said,
Quote from: RoseH on August 06, 2015, 03:09:53 AM
People who don't know you may perceive you as either male or female unless they have any knowledge regarding gender-nonconforming individuals. Humans like to put things into boxes, so when they first look at you they will either place you in 'female' or 'male' for convenience - based entirely upon your exterior. Unfortunately, the exterior makes people assume who you are, even though they don't know you.
So.. If they generally perceive you as female and/or your chest looks female, they will regard you as female.

I know personally that I would want to blend in as much as possible once I start my transition and the last thing I would want is for strangers to be paying more attention to me. I am willing to give up being shirtless in public to do so once I start presenting as female.

Hope this helps and doesn't come across as negative.
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Lebedinaja

Quote from: RoseH on August 05, 2015, 08:07:35 AM
I read the entire thing and I agree with Ms Grace. It's how western society is.

Also, I feel sorry for all the pain and drama you have had to go through in the past. You are strong to have endured it.

I wouldnt really think this is because of western society.
Its society in general, may it be america, easteurope, westeurope, asia, afrika or whatever.
People also wear pants, why do males and females wear pants? To hide their private parts. For a born woman, their chest is a private parts, thats why it gets hidden.
I personally dont know a girl that would walk around chest free in public, but I guess they wouldnt tell me.
You want to be how you feel, I understand fore sure, but we live in a society where it creates a very bad image for a woman to walk around topless. Southamerican indianic tribes do that... very different society...
but its nothing someone ever does here, so people usually feel irritated by what is different ... or not-the normal case.
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sparrow

I say this as a person DMAB, starting estrogen in 7 days.  (btw... :D)

F society, take your shirt off.

We'll see how I feel about that a year from now, after living through a summer with breast tissue of my very own.

The first thing to know about toplessness is that there are two reasons to outlaw it.  The most commonly-cited reason is the well-known evils of the female boob.  The second is called a "Heckler's Veto."  It's "for your protection."

As you've experienced, society does not expect men to be able to conduct themselves as civilized human beings when breasts are in evidence.  Taking that as a given, you can expect to be harassed if you take your shirt off.  So even in the ideal world where we don't ever blame victims for being harassed, individuals will continue to take actions that put them at less risk of harassment.

That's all to say that bids for topfreedom will almost always fall flat, because people who lack the right to toplessness are unwilling to fight for it.  Let's be clear, fighting for civil rights requires either (1) politicians to stick their necks out, or (2) people to get arrested and challenge the laws in courts.  We know that (1) doesn't happen often, and even when (2) happens, society is self-policing in precisely the ways that you have experienced.  Most people who lack topfreedom don't want it and when given the right, won't exercise it because they know how they'll be treated.

So, unless we find a way to depolarize gender in society, we're up the creek without a paddle.  And... gender polarization seems to be getting worse, not better.  Look on the bright side: the future will be... um... exciting.
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cheryl reeves

i dont take my shirt off in public,the last time i did i got a talking to about it..ive had breasts since i was 13 even though they are a small b people looked at me like i was a freak,so the only time i go topless is at home in the shower.
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DriftingCrow

Quote from: Butterfly on August 05, 2015, 07:40:26 PM

@Ms Grace: I do understand that women don't have a universal legal right to be topless in public yet (although as I've learned recently, it's technically, if not expressly, legal in the majority of states in the USA), and I'm definitely aware that Facebook and other social media/networking sites practice censorship of the female breast. But I don't understand why I would be targeted in that, because I'm not female and I'm not really a woman. Genderwise, I'm not a binary "trans woman", so there's no logical reason why I should need to obey society's norms for women. And legally, I'm still designated as "male," so my nipples should be treated as "male" nipples, no?

My Facebook doesn't even list me as female. It's set so that it uses neutral pronouns "they/them/their" when referring to me, and my actual gender is listed as "trans person," "transfeminine," "non-binary," and "demigirl." And as I said, there are already shirtless pictures of me on Facebook, and those haven't been taken down. The only difference I can see is that I was more muscular in those other pictures, because they're from a couple years ago when I still worked out a lot.


IDK the thing that gets me about your argument is that you are doing some medical transition to have at least some features of a female body.  I don't know anything about your history, but I suspect you wouldn't be growing some breasts otherwise if you weren't on HRT or maybe had some surgery.  If you're doing anything to have/grow any aspects of what is considered to be a female body, you HAVE to expect that you will face the same discrimination that those who were born the female sex or transitioned fully to it face.

Your gender (non-binary) or sex you were born as has nothing to do with it.  Like you said, it is culture.  But what it seems like you're saying to me is that "since I was born and stamped legally male, this shouldn't apply to me, even though I am taking steps to change my body to one that is discriminated against".  Yes, you say women shouldn't face this discrimination, but the way you type, to me, really seems like you're trying to get around the discrimination that female (sex) and women (gender) face. 

(BTW I am FAAB and would never go outside without at least a bra or bathing suit top on -- why? It's too uncomfortable to walk or run around if you have big tits.  Every step they bounce and it's not comfortable.  Try running up a flight of stairs with big boobs and no support.)
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