Idiot Doctor denies SubQ exists

[assorted_human]

So I finally got on hormones. Albeit not the way I wanted to. My Endo wanted to put me on patches or gels, but I told him "I've wanted to do Subcutaneous for a few years and you can't change my mind". His response was simply, "okay", and then he wrote out the prescription. Come to find when it was time to pick it up from the pharmacy he still ignored me and wrote the script for IM. I've gone ahead with my first shot anyway, but did call to say that I wanted SubQ for my new prescription the next time I went in. I left that message with his nurse. He called me back the next day and left me a voice mail saying that "Subcutaneous doesn't exist as a way to administer testosterone"... At any rate since he obviously doesn't know how to do research I've taken it into my own hands. I've printed out a couple articles, however I am having problems finding resources good enough to sway a doctor. I'm wondering if any of you guys would have a reputable source that I can drop off for him to mull over before my next appointment.
I had made an Endo appointment with another doctor (way before I knew I'd be seeing this guy) and that's coming up in April. Hopefully if this guy still doesn't believe me then I can take my services else where...and hopefully the next doctor isn't an idiot (this is my second Dr that said it didn't exist, at least the first one was a Physician). I would like to keep seeing my current Endo as he is about 20 minutes away while the other is about an hour away.

[AndrewB]

So, because I'm a curious man on IM injections: what are the benefits, from your understanding, of SubQ injections versus IM ones? Is it a personal preference, or is there really that much of a difference between the two that makes one more medically efficient to you?

Also, the fact that your doc doesn't think SubQ exists for T is ridiculous, a quick google search would have solved his misconception immediately. Was he an older fellow?

[assorted_human]

So, because I'm a curious man on IM injections: what are the benefits, from your understanding, of SubQ injections versus IM ones? Is it a personal preference, or is there really that much of a difference between the two that makes one more medically efficient to you?

Also, the fact that your doc doesn't think SubQ exists for T is ridiculous, a quick google search would have solved his misconception immediately. Was he an older fellow?

From what I've read there's no risk of hitting a nerve, you don't have to worry about hitting a vein, scar tissue won't build up in muscles over time, and it takes less T for the same results. Though I'm not completely sure if the last one is true, I asked guys here I still don't know about that. I have also heard that after a while IM can start to hurt when you inject it and according to my information SubQ is not as painful.
Scar tissue still develops on your skin, but at least there wouldn't be a muscle knot years down the line. Some guys on here said there is risk of an allergic reaction and lumps developing in fat. It still just sounds better to me.

I wouldn't say so, I think he's in his 40's or 50's.

[AndrewB]

From what I've read there's no risk of hitting a nerve, you don't have to worry about hitting a vein, scar tissue won't build up in muscles over time, and it takes less T for the same results. Though I'm not completely sure if the last one is true, I asked guys here I still don't know about that. I have also heard that after a while IM can start to hurt when you inject it and according to my information SubQ is not as painful.
Scar tissue still develops on your skin, but at least there wouldn't be a muscle knot years down the line. Some guys on here said there is risk of an allergic reaction and lumps developing in fat. It still just sounds better to me.

I wouldn't say so, I think he's in his 40's or 50's.

Huh, sounds like a fine alternative; from that information I feel like the pros and cons of IM and SubQ are pretty relative to the prescribed, I suppose, in what side effects and stuff you're willing to deal with. Like for me, I'm not really worried about knots and stuff because I work out so much, and as a result I really don't even get the sterile abscess that I used to get about 6-12 hours after injecting; I think my muscles just kind of "deal with it" faster than they used to, or something.

Good luck on the new endo if yours doesn't figure his practice out, I know I've seen lots of other guys here with an inexperienced doctor dishing out information they couldn't back up with modern medicine/journals.

[SWNID]

Does it matter that much what the script says? It's the same drug and same dosage so you can inject any way you want. So if your dr refuses to keep up, you can still do the subq.

[assorted_human]

Does it matter that much what the script says? It's the same drug and same dosage so you can inject any way you want. So if your dr refuses to keep up, you can still do the subq.

I've never found evidence of that and my vial says "intermuscular only". Plus I've heard it takes smaller gauged needles.

[assorted_human]

Huh, sounds like a fine alternative; from that information I feel like the pros and cons of IM and SubQ are pretty relative to the prescribed, I suppose, in what side effects and stuff you're willing to deal with. Like for me, I'm not really worried about knots and stuff because I work out so much, and as a result I really don't even get the sterile abscess that I used to get about 6-12 hours after injecting; I think my muscles just kind of "deal with it" faster than they used to, or something.

Good luck on the new endo if yours doesn't figure his practice out, I know I've seen lots of other guys here with an inexperienced doctor dishing out information they couldn't back up with modern medicine/journals.

I work upper body more than lower. Though I bike often in warm weather months. Glad that works for you though.
Thanks, I think I'm going to call the other office tomorrow to see if they know what SubQ is.

[LordKAT]

The T will say IM only even if your doctor does tell you to do subq shots.

[AndrewB]

The T will say IM only even if your doctor does tell you to do subq shots.

Oh! Well in that case, the length of the needle he prescribed would be the only indicator, right? I take IM and use a 1.5" needle.

[LordKAT]

That is about it. You don't have to put it in all the far though.

[SWNID]

Yeah, the vial will only say IM only no matter what the script says. The needle doesn't matter, you can buy boxes of them online without script. I bought a box of 25g1.5" for IM but I switched to subQ after a while and finished the rest of my needles, just going in less deep. When I ordered new needles, I got 29g1/2" specifically for IM. I have used 25g1" and 27g1/2"too, both work.

[assorted_human]

The T will say IM only even if your doctor does tell you to do subq shots.

That's good to hear.

Yeah, the vial will only say IM only no matter what the script says. The needle doesn't matter, you can buy boxes of them online without script. I bought a box of 25g1.5" for IM but I switched to subQ after a while and finished the rest of my needles, just going in less deep. When I ordered new needles, I got 29g1/2" specifically for IM. I have used 25g1" and 27g1/2"too, both work.

Sweet!

I didn't know it just took different needles with the same vial. I'd definitely need thinner shorter needles (22g 1.5" is what I've got).

[CursedFireDean]

My doctor accidentally wrote me a script for IM needles instead of subq once, and as others said just don't stick it in all the way. I'm now using a 25g 5/8" insulin needle, and a lot of pharmacies seem to not have that. They also get a bit puffy about being prescribed subq needles for something that says IM only so they gave me larger needles than that which I didn't like. Some pharmacies will give you about ten needles at a time with no prescription but when I moved the new pharmacy wouldn't do that, actually got surprisingly angry when I asked, so I just ordered in bulk from a diabetic supply website.

For me I do subq instead of IM for two reasons- it's supposed to hurt less and the smaller needles freak me out less. Trying IM gives me so much anxiety that I had to go with short needles. The long needles scare me a lot. I would get panic attacks with the long needles.

[AndrewB]

I didn't know it just took different needles with the same vial. I'd definitely need thinner shorter needles (22g 1.5" is what I've got).

Just be careful with the dosage, as your doctor *might* have actually prescribed you a dosage that's better for IM injections, since you mentioned you actually need less T for SubQ.

[CursedFireDean]

Just be careful with the dosage, as your doctor *might* have actually prescribed you a dosage that's better for IM injections, since you mentioned you actually need less T for SubQ.

But then again your doctor should also modify your dose if levels are off regardless of whether you've done IM or subq.

[assorted_human]

Some pharmacies will give you about ten needles at a time with no prescription but when I moved the new pharmacy wouldn't do that, actually got surprisingly angry when I asked, so I just ordered in bulk from a diabetic supply website.

My pharmacy wouldn't even give me all of my prescribed needles at once. They're giving me them as I need them.

But then again your doctor should also modify your dose if levels are off regardless of whether you've done IM or subq.

Exactly.

I'll wait until I see the other doctor first though so I can see if she knows what I'm talking about, since apparently they don't answer questions about their knowledge over the phone...

[JoanneB]

Simple Solution... F em. Order or ask for a short syringe and do Sub-Q shots.

[aleon515]

Another advantage is that it is more efficient and you may need a lower dose.

--Jay

[Ryan55]

My doctor only does subq injections, so thats what I have been using since starting T 10 months ago, the needle is small and it pretty much is painless, I don't think im on a high dose of T, avg I think, i like the results its given me, my T does say for IM use only, but it works fine with subq shots, I believe subq is suppose to be cheaper also? not sure since I never had to do IM shots.

[Bimmer Guy]

Another advantage is that it is more efficient and you may need a lower dose.

--Jay

Jay, where did you read it was more efficient?  I know the Spack and Olson studies indicated that outcomes were the same as IM (and that Spack's study said evidence of their being lower doses needed with subq), but I didn't read anything about subq being more efficient?  Or maybe I need to better understand what you mean by "more efficient", here?

I'm not trying to be picky, just want to make sure I have the right information, as I can see myself passing this along to other guys.

As an aside, assorted_ human I use Subq too.  I go to a large clinic and that is standard procedure for testosterone there.