Confused about gender identity

[groberts01]

Hey everyone . I've been trying to learn more about other people's gender identities and I've got a few questions which I was hoping some people on here could help answer .

I still struggled with the idea that if gender norms are defined by the society we live in through the social constructs of masculinity and femininity, which vary from culture to culture and across time, then what does it mean to feel male or female? This confusion is coupled with my own experience of not attaching any meaning to having a female body (I guess that makes me agender?). I dress in a pretty masculine way and have short hair and once or twice someone has used a male pronoun when speaking to me, which really didn't bother me.

A particular video I watched on youtube of a trans woman explaining what it meant to her to feel like a woman, gave me an analogy that I found very helpful and I'd like to know if others find it relatable. She said that you express gender the way you do for the same reason you chose your clothes or hairstyle etc. unrelated to gender; because it feels right to you. This helped because the meaning we attach to a certain style of dress e.g. gothic-type which I tend to identify with, is defined by our culture as well. But I'd still feel so uncomfortable in a life forced wear frilly pink dresses, whose meaning is also defined by my culture. And when I think about it that should really confuse me for the same reason gender expression does. Since I can objectively see that it's just a dress and the meaning I attach to the dress is in my head. But that's just it I guess, the meaning in your head doesn't go away just because you tell yourself "THE IDEA THAT PINK AND FRILLS ARE CHILDISH AND GIRLY (with the associated negative connation of weakness that the word 'girly' brings to me because of the society I live in and which I buy into by saying this whether I like it or not) IS A SOCIAL CONSTUCT".

The struggle I have meshing my idea of equality between the sexes and gender identity leads me to the idea that if we erased gender norms being trans, cis or bigender wouldn't be a thing. Gender would be an abandoned construct and there would just be the sex you have and self-expression would be separate from your sex, since nothing would be expected of you connected with your sex. But maybe that's ignorant, maybe there are differences between the genders that can't ever be called just social constructs. I know there's been research that shows there are differences between the brains of men and women. So then I'm back to my question: what does it mean to FEEL a certain gender then? And why don't I feel female, or male?

I want to clarify, that of course I believe people when they say they identify as a certain gender. I just don't think I understand what people mean when they say that.

Let me know guys, am I sort-of understanding things or am I being ignorant?

[Cindy]

Maybe you are non-binary?

[Laura_7]

Imagine a big spectrum from male to female.

There are people who even identify outside of this spectrum.

But there are people who have their individual points or parts of this spectrum where they feel more comfortable with.

Gender identity, gender expression and sex are different things.

You can identify as female... or androgynous... and wear the clothing you like.

Of course its likely if you identify strongly as male or female you have certain preferences.
But it doesn't have to. You might still have days where you feel like wearing something different.
And thats completely ok.

You don't have to identify either as male or female... its up to you. Some feel this way, some do not.
And there might be contradictory sides... wanting to play with tools, being assertive, etc.
All positions are equal but not the same.

I'd say take your time... over time you will feel where you are comfortable, and what brings you joy...
and imo people are becoming more and more versatile, which is a plus... men showing emotions, women being more active... etc...

[LordKAT]

For me, it wasn't 'feeling' male  as much as it was that physically everything was/is just wrong. I was just me inside.

[Erin.LE]

I found this video to be pretty informative as well as useful in helping other people understand my own gender identity:



I identify as non-binary myself and loosely as a demigirl. Despite being male bodied, I am uncomfortable in male gender roles as well as inhabiting a male body so I am hoping to change this. That said, I don't feel really feel female or like a woman. I feel feminine at times but mainly I am just me, which is a more neutral sort of thing.

There is also a difference between gender expression and gender identity of course! I don't really identify as either male or female most of the time but my gender expression is more androgynous-feminine. Different levers moved to different points on the genderbread person model if you will!

[Emerald]

So then I'm back to my question: what does it mean to FEEL a certain gender then?

Hi groberts01 and welcome to the forum. 
I've asked the question many times and have yet to receive a straight answer. Note how none of the responders above have been able to answer this question either. Odd isn't it. Rest assured you are not alone in your thinking, much of what you have written resonates with me.

As to your second question... Like you I also don't feel male or female. I have no idea why I don't feel like either sex but I think it's a blessing that I don't. I simply feel human - happily, healthily and wholly human. I much prefer to live a genderfree life than a gendered life. Look what gender makes people do! It is so wonderfully effortless to do the 'human thing' in contrast to doing the 'woman thing' or the 'man thing', don't you agree?

I could go on and on about the subject of being and feeling genderfree and pondering the why of it all, but for now let us see if anyone here posts an enlightening answer to your first question... genderless minds want to know!

[infinity]

disclaimer: this response is how ->-bleeped-<- pertains to me, and not necessarily anybody else.

...if gender norms are defined by the society we live in through the social constructs of masculinity and femininity, which vary from culture to culture and across time, then what does it mean to feel male or female? ...if we erased gender norms being trans, cis or bigender wouldn't be a thing. Gender would be an abandoned construct and there would just be the sex you have and self-expression would be separate from your sex, since nothing would be expected of you connected with your sex.

you have very good (and valid) points, and i totally understand where you're coming from because i too have thought of this stuff on numerous occasions. it's made me wonder why in the world i simply just cannot be happy in the body i'm already in, because really, in all honestly, what actually makes a man? a woman? a mix of both? neither? the answer: societal constructs, which are constantly changing and therefore altering people's perspective.

however, there are these factor too, which i'm completely aware of:

But maybe that's ignorant, maybe there are differences between the genders that can't ever be called just social constructs. I know there's been research that shows there are differences between the brains of men and women.

i'm aware of these factors as well, and truthfully, i don't put much stock in psychology. however, another component to consider, if we are pursuing the psychological element, is that maybe, after centuries of societal influences, male and female brains were conditioned to think differently.

i don't even know if that makes any sense...

...either way, i'm getting sidetracked.

now, to actually answer your question:

So then I'm back to my question: what does it mean to FEEL a certain gender then?

to explain it best, it's an innate feeling an individual has that the physical and biological characteristics that they were assigned with at birth aren't/weren't supposed to be there. i think lordkat hits the nail on the head in terms of providing an explanation of this phenomenon with this statement:

For me, it wasn't 'feeling' male  as much as it was that physically everything was/is just wrong. I was just me inside.

one just knows, just as one knows that the rumbling noise and the slight ache in their stomach means they're hungry. it's a core part of your being, of your personality, of your identity, just the same as being shy is (for example). it's something you can't exactly control, something you know is there but don't know why it's there... it's who you are. you know who you are, but you don't know why you know who you are.

...hmmm... i suppose it's all very similar to instinctive traits demonstrated in all animals (including humans). one just knows things for some inexplicable reason (well, inexplicable because i'm not good at science ). take dogs, for instance; a golden retriever doesn't know why it feels the urge to bring back objects to its master; all it knows is that it must do that task.



how do newborn baby sea turtles know that they must reach the water as soon as they hatch from their eggs on shore? they don't. it's just instinct. how do creatures know they are required to shake water from wet fur? they don't. it's just instinct. how do you know your gender? you don't. it's just (similar to) instinct.

And why don't I feel female, or male?

you are the only one who can truthfully answer that question. but as cindy suggested, you could be non-binary; or as you guessed, you could be agender.

if it's a possibility, i would recommend discussing your circumstances with a gender therapist. of course, you could also do some of your own research on these feelings. discovering your true gender identity may be a long and confusing process, but it's worth it in the end. and remember, we're all here for support!

an individual doesn't know why they know something, they just... know. apply this theory to an person's gender, and a person just knows without truly knowing why they know. you know?

i think i'm repeating myself now... oh well.

anyway, i hope that helped! and by the way, welcome to susan's!

- (the very philosophical) jackson

edit: holy sh*t, is this reply long or what?!

[PoeticHeart]

Welcome to the wonderful land that is Gender! If you look to your left, you'll see mass hysteria and general confusion. Don't worry, it just takes some getting used to.

But in all seriousness, this is a hard topic to get your mind around and it's one I've wrestled with many sleepless nights myself. What is a man? What is a woman? If for this scenario we follow the de-essentialized version of 'your culture defines what gender is' then feeling what you feel based on cultural norms is not in the least bit wrong. We do not exist separate from our culture. It's teachings are very much a part of who we are and what we become. So, therefore, I would say you should look into the idea of gender performativity. It's a bit of a jargon filled land, but you'll find your way around pretty easily (especially with google to define things for you.) I'll leave you with a video that will maybe help you make some sense of this issue.

[Athena]

Hi groberts01 welcome to Susan's

[LordKAT]

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[VeronicaLynn]

f "THE IDEA THAT PINK AND FRILLS ARE CHILDISH AND GIRLY ... IS A SOCIAL CONSTUCT"

The idea that this is only partially true is what really infuriates those that say it. And yes, it is partially true, pink as a girl's color is entirely arbitrary and is not universal, even within our own culture...it wasn't long ago that baby blue was the color of girls, and pink the color of baby boys, I don't know how they got swapped, but they did, but back when pink was a boy's color dresses on little boys were also acceptable...google FDR in a dress...

[groberts01]

Thanks for your replies everyone!

Thank you for sharing resources. I've watched the video you posted Erin.LE and I love the gingerbread person, it's a helpful mental reminder of how varied people are. I'll watch your posted video PoeticHeart next (very poetic description of the land of gender btw).

Your personal experiences of gender identity are what I've found most helpful. It's helped me to appreciate people's different motivations for identifying where they do on the gender scale, that assuming that feeling you are a certain gender inside was the only reason why people are gendered was an oversimplification. It's a case of the more you know the more you realise you don't.

Emerald - You're right, it is easy in some ways . I find myself not worrying about things some gendered friends do - for example I don't worry about presenting a certain gender, so I wear whatever I want. That said it feels like I'm missing part of the conversation people around me are having (this thread a perfect example) when I have to try and learn what people mean when they say they are male, female, bi...

VeronicaLynn - Sorry what do you mean by:

The idea that this is only partially true is what really infuriates those that say it.

?
I'm not sure whether you are saying that you agree with what I've written in caps lock, or that what I wrote was only partially true and that you were providing a counter-view (in which case is it you I infuriated? - I'm sorry if I did). FDR looks really cute.

It's also reassuring to know I'm not unusual in the questions I am asking.

[VeronicaLynn]

VeronicaLynn - Sorry what do you mean by:  ?
I'm not sure whether you are saying that you agree with what I've written in caps lock, or that what I wrote was only partially true and that you were providing a counter-view (in which case is it you I infuriated? - I'm sorry if I did). FDR looks really cute.

It's also reassuring to know I'm not unusual in the questions I am asking.

I'm not infuriated. I think I was more getting at, if pink and frills, are just a social construct, why are so many of us MAAB trans and non-binbary, as well as cis-women so drawn to it? Really I was getting at the deeper issue with this line of thinking, you may have not considered:

I do think that is a really useful mindset, especially for anyone that's trans or non-binary, that gender is partially a social construct.

Some feminists will say it's completely a social construct, but that concept is incompatible with anyone who is trans. If it is, than it brings us back to birth sex being all that matters. It's these types of feminists that would be infuriated. Partially a social construct, however, can be useful.

[Asche]

I think I was more getting at, if pink and frills, are just a social construct, why are so many of us MAAB trans and non-binbary, as well as cis-women so drawn to it? Really I was getting at the deeper issue with this line of thinking, you may have not considered:

I do think that is a really useful mindset, especially for anyone that's trans or non-binary, that gender is partially a social construct.

IMHO, "pink and frills" are not the social construct.  The social construct is the linking of pink-and-frills to, for example, long hair (but otherwise no body hair), submissiveness, being born with a vagina (or something the doctor thought was a vagina), and not being able to understand math and technology.

Also, IMHO, one may be drawn to pink-and-frills for a number of reasons:
1. Because that's just how you are.   Different people have different preferences.
2. Because you identify with the social construct "female" that includes pink-and-frills, so you adopt them to feel more in tune with that construct.
3. Some mixture of the two.
4. Something else entirely.

One can definitely identify with a social construct.  For example, the United States ("America") is entirely a social construct, yet an awful lot of people identify very strongly with being "American."  (And some people who by the usual definition are American don't center their identity around being American.)

[Emerald]

"Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.

"Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.

To put it another way:
"Male" and "female" are sex categories, while "masculine" and "feminine" are gender categories.

-World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/

[Dee Marshall]

The idea that this is only partially true is what really infuriates those that say it. And yes, it is partially true, pink as a girl's color is entirely arbitrary and is not universal, even within our own culture...it wasn't long ago that baby blue was the color of girls, and pink the color of baby boys, I don't know how they got swapped, but they did, but back when pink was a boy's color dresses on little boys were also acceptable...google FDR in a dress...

Gainsborough made a painting, "The Blue Boy", which was meant to be gender bending and scandalous. Thomas Lawrence made one named " Pinky" following on Gainsborough's coat tails. Together after decades they managed to swap the two colors in people's minds.

[groberts01]

Interesting replies guys.

Thanks for the link PoeticHeart. I found the idea of gender performativity really helpful. It makes a lot more sense to me to have gender explained as something I interact with though my culture, rather than as something innate, and which can evolve or even change as we go along in our lives, like any other part of our identity.

I think I've had a mini breakthrough in my understanding. I was reading this article: http://everydayfeminism.com/2012/11/13-myths-and-misconceptions-about-trans-women/
and I realised I was guilty of one of the misconceptions mentioned.

I'm going to quote the bit from the article that cleared up a big point of confusion for me below. I hadn't properly understood the difference between gender identity and gender expression and how these two parts of a person are totally separate (my only excuse is that I've never had a strong sense of gender identity myself, so struggled to understand an unfamiliar concept). Emerald - we genderless minds do want to know! Does the quote below clear anything up for you?

"Gender identity is an internal sense of self and what one fundamentally is. It's the sense of being a man or a woman (or both, or neither, or in-between, or something else). It is divorced from concepts of what a man or woman is or isn't supposed to be like, and appears to be very much innate and unchanging. It also appears to be related to the neurological "body map" and relationship to one's body- feelings of either comfort or alienation.

Gender expression is the degree to which one's personality, interests and manner of self-expression is culturally regarded as "masculine" or "feminine" (or "androgynous"). This is heavily culturally and socially mediated. What is regarded as feminine in one culture may be regarded as masculine in another. There seem to be some gendered traits that are in varying degrees innate to an individual but gender expression is an aggregation of many, many, many such traits which can occur in an immense variety of combinations. "