Opinions on Reasons for ->-bleeped-<- (if that is a real word)

[Contravene]

As someone who is cis-sexual or cis-genderless (A term I made up for transgender individuals to understand my point of view), I never really liked the assumption from many trans-individuals that every cis-individuals have a feeling of gender because that simply doesn't apply to all of them and especially for those individuals who have no reason to identify other than they are born with those parts or the philosophy of essentialism being applied to biological sex and identity. I would fall under that camp as I do not have a reason to identify based upon feelings because it is not something that makes sense to me, and nor I am capable of caring to identify based upon feelings as I lack a feeling of gender while I find that essentialism makes sense for me.  I also couldn't careless about gender roles and gender roles are officially dead where I am at (If you were to go into my neighborhood, you'd see that no one enforces roles for members of people who carry a certain body because they're dead.), and from my experience, there's no good reason to believe that there is major differences in the behaviors of women and men while differences are due to inherent properties which affects their psychology indirectly such as being able to breed or having very observable anatomical characteristics.

That being said, I think the OP wants to know why transgender identify in a way that goes contrary to the application of essentialism as the OP may have hard time sympathizing on why some people do not agree with the application of essentialism when it comes to self-identity. Many cis-individuals have hard time sympathizing with the reasons of why transgender individuals go against essentialism when it comes to gender because a lot of us cis-individuals do not have a experience of feeling a gender and a lot of us identify as what in our birth certificates because it is convenient.

Regarding being born that way, I'd have to point out that the scientific community that investigates sexual orientation and gender has not yet reach to the a conclusion of what causes a person to be inclined that way or whether it should or not be seen as static for everyone, and that's ignoring semantic issues regarding sexual orientation and gender as there is no clear consensus on what constitutes a sexuality or gender. As far as whether everyone is born that way, it's hard to argue that everyone is as neuroplasticity is a thing and there's absolutely no reason to believe that sexuality or gender is immune to changes to the brain while it been proven countless of times that one's ability or personality are affected by changes to the brain which influences an aspect to a person. That position does not imply that one can simply be changed by wills.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding correctly so you can let me know if I'm misinterpreting your post but I agree that there are people who don't necessarily "feel" that they're a particular gender. It's exactly for the reason you mentioned; they're comfortable with the physical sex they were born as and comfortable with the gender roles society places upon them as a result because they use their physical anatomy to define their gender. Gender as an internal feeling isn't inherent to them but gender as a physical property is. It's sort of like what I mentioned in my first post, they are what they are, most people just seem to accept that they're either male or female according to their anatomy and they don't give gender a second thought.

I think you also mentioned that this is why it can be difficult to explain gender dysphoria to cis people. For many of them it's difficult to understand how a person isn't able to determine their gender based on physical cues and it's difficult to explain "feeling" that you're a particular gender since gender itself isn't exactly an emotion or something that can be felt. What can be felt though, what transgender people feel, is the discomfort they experience because of their anatomical sex. So it would seem that people don't necessarily feel their gender, they're either indifferent or they're uncomfortable with it.

It's really interesting that you live in a place where there aren't any gender roles and I wonder how that's possible. I believe gender roles are just a manifestation of a society that places unnecessary restrictions upon people. I would love to experience a place that doesn't differentiate between male and female roles.

[Asche]

...  I agree that there are people who don't necessarily "feel" that they're a particular gender. It's exactly for the reason you mentioned; they're comfortable with the physical sex they were born as and comfortable with the gender roles society places upon them as a result because they use their physical anatomy to define their gender. ...

That's not always true.

I definitely don't feel male (my physical sex) other than anatomically, and I have never felt  comfortable with the gender roles placed on me because of it.  But that doesn't mean I feel female (whatever that means.)

If anything, my not feeling like a particular gender is related to how uncomfortable I always was with the whole "being a man" mishegoss.  When people tried to teach me to be masculine, it was like crows trying to teach a gopher how to fly.  And pecking and clawing at him until he finally stops pretending he can't.

There are also people here who feel like they are a gender, except that the gender they feel they are is a mix of male and female.  Or that their gender shifts between male and female.  I won't try to explain it any further, I'd be like a blind person trying to explain what red looks like.  But they report feeling very uncomfortable being stuffed into one or the other of the ANSI standard gender boxes.

Look up "non-binary gender" some time (although the Wikipedia article on it is rather clueless.)

[Contravene]

That's not always true.

I definitely don't feel male (my physical sex) other than anatomically, and I have never felt  comfortable with the gender roles placed on me because of it.  But that doesn't mean I feel female (whatever that means.)

If anything, my not feeling like a particular gender is related to how uncomfortable I always was with the whole "being a man" mishegoss.  When people tried to teach me to be masculine, it was like crows trying to teach a gopher how to fly.  And pecking and clawing at him until he finally stops pretending he can't.

There are also people here who feel like they are a gender, except that the gender they feel they are is a mix of male and female.  Or that their gender shifts between male and female.  I won't try to explain it any further, I'd be like a blind person trying to explain what red looks like.  But they report feeling very uncomfortable being stuffed into one or the other of the ANSI standard gender boxes.

Look up "non-binary gender" some time (although the Wikipedia article on it is rather clueless.)

I understand what "non-binary" gender is. I also understand that there are people, cis or otherwise, who are not comfortable with gender roles and who feel that they have an inherent sense of gender. Some do, many don't hence the wording in all of my posts "there are people out there...", "many people...", "a lot of people". I never said or implied that all cis people are comfortable with their gender roles and such. My point was that it's difficult to explain what dysphoria is to those who don't have an internal feeling of gender. I think dysphoria is a little easier to explain to people who do because they can imagine being in a body that doesn't match their internal gender. It's probably also a bit easier to explain dysphoria to those who are uncomfortable with society's gender roles because at some point they've felt a sense of dysphoria over being placed into a gender role they feel they don't belong in as you described feeling.

[suzifrommd]

I agree that there are people who don't necessarily "feel" that they're a particular gender. It's exactly for the reason you mentioned; they're comfortable with the physical sex they were born as and comfortable with the gender roles society places upon them as a result because they use their physical anatomy to define their gender.

Contravene, may I disagree? I don't "feel" like a female. If anything, I feel like a male, but I'm definitely MtF transgender and have been living happily as a woman full time for the past year and a half.

My gender therapist, who has been working with transfolk for over 20 years, says that what gender you feel like, does not always have anything to do with whether you are trans or need to transition.

[Jen72]

Whilst I respect your view Suzi I think what the op meant as far as the not feeling their particular gender and being comfortable with their designated sex at birth is this. Really basically a description of CIs in that they don't think about it as transgender does. I am not saying you are wrong in any way but somewhere you thought something must have been off to think of transitioning let alone do it. If I were to guess its more like you want to be you not necessarily male or female just you. Just something not describable that you needed to transition.

As a note I am still fairly early in discovery but I feel I get the gist of what I really am if that makes sense and In a way I am like you Suzi its just something that I need to do not for attention not for a lark but for something that is much deeper that cant really be explained. As I said pretty early in my discovery so I could be way out in the ball park and please forgive me if I am misinterpreting what you mean.

[mfox]

@mfox, you mentioned "I eventually realize most of my problems came down to being transgender." Do you really see this as being an actual problem? Or is it more just factual to you. In my opinion, The fact that you are transgender shouldn't necessarily be born a problem, rather I think it should be more of an enlightenment to something you already knew but wasn't completely sure of. Which brings me to my next question, What was the final straw or the ultimatum that led to your actual transition, I'd certainly like to hear others experiences as well. If this is all too much i can certainly stop at anytime.

Sure, being transgender isn't a problem to me in itself, it's just the closest diagnosis of all of the symptoms I've had since I was about 10 years old.  Like you say, it's the enlightenment that was missing.  I just lived with the dysphoria and anxiety until one day it dawned on me.

The epiphany came when I was first dressed up believably as a female, complete with professional makeup, breast forms, wig, etc..  It was just part of a performance and I didn't think anything of it.  But when I saw myself in the mirror, it mentally clicked.  I had made steps to feminize before that, like laser hair removal, to fix what I thought was just body dysphoria.  The final straws to start HRT was when I realized I might be starting to lose hair on my forehead, and that my "pretend to be male" dysphoria was starting to cause panic attacks.

[Reptillian]

I'm not sure if I'm understanding correctly so you can let me know if I'm misinterpreting your post but I agree that there are people who don't necessarily "feel" that they're a particular gender. It's exactly for the reason you mentioned; they're comfortable with the physical sex they were born as and comfortable with the gender roles society places upon them as a result because they use their physical anatomy to define their gender. Gender as an internal feeling isn't inherent to them but gender as a physical property is. It's sort of like what I mentioned in my first post, they are what they are, most people just seem to accept that they're either male or female according to their anatomy and they don't give gender a second thought.

Well, some people who are comfortable with the physical sex that they were born as are not necessarily comfortable with gender roles, and yes it seems that the majority of people just accept their gender as a physical property as it.

I think you also mentioned that this is why it can be difficult to explain gender dysphoria to cis people. For many of them it's difficult to understand how a person isn't able to determine their gender based on physical cues and it's difficult to explain "feeling" that you're a particular gender since gender itself isn't exactly an emotion or something that can be felt. What can be felt though, what transgender people feel, is the discomfort they experience because of their anatomical sex. So it would seem that people don't necessarily feel their gender, they're either indifferent or they're uncomfortable with it.

That's exactly what I was saying or at least close to that.

It's really interesting that you live in a place where there aren't any gender roles and I wonder how that's possible. I believe gender roles are just a manifestation of a society that places unnecessary restrictions upon people. I would love to experience a place that doesn't differentiate between male and female roles.

When it comes to how it's possible, it's possible if somehow there is some people who decided to challenge gender roles while gender roles becomes less significant over time because of changes to a culture, then over time gender roles gets so insignificant that there's no point bothering with supporting them. Gender roles isn't as important as it once was and we can already see that through changing thoughts on the roles of women as well as the pay-rate though I must add that sexism is still a issue to this very day, but it's not as big as it once was. In here, where I'm at, the only thing they seem to enforce regarding genders are what clothes to wear.

[codyfletcher]

Don't worry, after reading your post a few times I knew you had good intentions. I think it's great that you want to learn more. There are many cis gender people out there who don't really take the time to learn about trans people or transgender issues because they aren't affected by them. I was a little taken aback at first but that's only because family members of mine insist that being transgender is a choice and a lifestyle. I've kind of been conditioned to expect that it's a loaded question when someone asks why I'm doing this or that in regards to my gender identity.

I understand exactly what you mean about feeling numb and I'm sorry you're experiencing that. I felt that way for years, mostly due to the toxic environment created by my family. I hated having no emotions but I just accepted it, thinking that "I don't have any happiness but at least I don't have any sadness either" because of how severe my depression could get at times. What I didn't realize was that my numbness actually was a symptom of my depression. I started seeing a therapist around this time last year and was put on an antidepressant which has helped that numbness gradually fade. Maybe something like that could help you too?

Female hormones would have an effect on your emotions but I don't think they would change your personality. In fact, they may do more harm than good if your brain is wired as male because it isn't meant to be operating on female hormones so that may make your emotions unstable.

I'm sure your emotions are still there though, sometimes it just takes a while before you're able to feel them again.

Aye that, Never really crossed my mind to try female hormones, as I don't think it would do me all that much good in my sense. I was on paxil for about a year but all that did was make me suicidal and even attempted it at one time. It's odd because, even though I tried something so final, I really don't feel that bad or anything at all really about it. It's hard to explain. After having my child I decided for certain I would never attempt anything like that again, so as not to be a selfish mongrel.

Now in terms of gender roles, I don't think that people necessarily transition due to them because even me, perfectly comfortable being a male, am not completely down with the gender roles we are handed down. I think over time combined with the ridiculous amount of sexism towards women the gender roles of males have been slowly twisted and just grow toxic everyday. The general stereotype of a male role is Always hungry for sex, dominant of all else, Does all the work to bring money, never cleans anything, blah blah blah the list goes on. Now in THAT sense I think it's just preposterous that a male HAS to be that way and some of the things that have been adapted into the male gender role are really just down right disgusting. The way that women see THE MAJORITY of men is awful, but i can't say i blame them. For example, a women is hurt by a man and has a hard time finding another mate because she's scared to get hurt again. Obviously every single man isn't going to do the same things now picture this, You go into a cage of grizzly bears and the zookeeper says, "don't worry some of them are nice and some of them will tear you apart" You are still going to be nervous CUZ IT'S A FREAKING BEAR. So in that sense, I find myself uncomfortable with some of the male "gender roles".

[Dee Marshall]

My therapist asked me if I could be happy being male in a world where there were no gender roles and all clothing was unisex. I immediately, without having to think said no, because I'm not male.

I can dress in male drag, do male things, play a male roll, it doesn't bother me much to. I even have little bottom dysphoria, but deep down, and I can't explain it, I'm a woman.

Not all trans people are like me, maybe not even many. We have many differences. You can't point at any one thing and say " that's unequivocally trans." People can explain away every little trait and behavior. Believe me, I've been forced into that game. But I can be happy self-identified as trans, broke and unemployed. I can give up anything for my wife whom I love dearly, but I can't give up this. I wasn't happy with a house, a six figure income, travel and expensive hobbies even though I had no idea I was trans when I had that life. (Rather have both! )

Being trans isn't a logical choice or easily explained, it's a biological imperative, at least for me.

[cindy16]

I can dress in male drag, do male things, play a male roll, it doesn't bother me much to. I even have little bottom dysphoria, but deep down, and I can't explain it, I'm a woman.
I can give up anything for my wife whom I love dearly, but I can't give up this.
Being trans isn't a logical choice or easily explained, it's a biological imperative, at least for me.

I agree with each of these too.
Regarding the original question of how one comes to this conclusion, I think a lot of it also depends on how much we know at what stage of life. For example, I recently posted on https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,184981.0.html how my knowledge of trans people has grown within the last one year, and that has helped me accept myself.
Before that, I had lived all these years knowing that my feelings, thoughts and emotions leaned towards the female side, and that I would have preferred to be born female if I had had that choice, but I also accepted the conventional essentialist view of gender and thought I could live with my gender assigned at birth. I simply did not know the details of transitioning, as I thought "sex change" only meant surgeries which might still leave one 'somewhere in the middle' and possibly open to ridicule and harassment. I also thought that unless one had a lot of money, this would also mean the loss of everything in one's life so far. I didn't want to have any of that, and still don't, although I am now more prepared to face it and counter it if it comes to that.
Keeping surgeries aside, I did not know how HRT and a lot of small steps you can take for yourself can help you become more comfortable with your body, and that there are people who successfully go through this transition and find acceptance and also maintain their existing lives.

Regarding gender roles, I think they have been changing everywhere and becoming more relaxed, although a lot of sexism still exists.
I can see the difference, for example, between how my parents shared their responsibilities (which was a positive change from the generation before them and so on) and how my wife and I go about it. Since my wife and I already have a fairly 'equal' marriage, and my job is in a field with less strict gender roles than usual, I do not really 'hate' my current gender roles much. I am not too dysphoric about my body either. Despite that, I now want to bring my body, my outward appearance and the way people see me more in line with what I have always known my mind to be. I didn't want this until even a few months ago, and was content to continue living the way I always had, and occasionally indulge myself with 'cross-dressing' etc. The difference now is that I know what is medically and socially possible while earlier I didn't. So I now want to live my life more fully instead of just accepting my fate.

[cindy16]

Also, since there was some discussion about how cis people think about their gender, I think the video here https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,185075.0.html is interesting where the lady asks Hank how does he know he is male.
He seems to be at a loss for words, and just says that it is like a 'path of least resistance' or something.
I thought the same way until recently, except that I also had the hidden self-awareness of which direction my feelings and emotions leaned towards.

[mfox]

I had lived all these years knowing that my feelings, thoughts and emotions leaned towards the female side, and that I would have preferred to be born female if I had had that choice, but I also accepted the conventional essentialist view of gender and thought I could live with my gender assigned at birth. I simply did not know the details of transitioning, as I thought "sex change" only meant surgeries which might still leave one 'somewhere in the middle' and possibly open to ridicule and harassment. I also thought that unless one had a lot of money, this would also mean the loss of everything in one's life so far. I didn't want to have any of that, and still don't, although I am now more prepared to face it and counter it if it comes to that.
Keeping surgeries aside, I did not know how HRT and a lot of small steps you can take for yourself can help you become more comfortable with your body, and that there are people who successfully go through this transition and find acceptance and also maintain their existing lives.

This is how I felt too.

[Dee Marshall]

I think that the fact that so many of us can't explain to cis people what we mean, but that we can nod our heads at the attempt, even given the differences between us, is very telling. Perhaps it's not so much that there are real differences between trans people, but that the difficulty in expressing our truth to those who don't share it makes it appear that we have real differences.

[Asche]

I think that the fact that so many of us can't explain to cis people what we mean, but that we can nod our heads at the attempt, even given the differences between us, is very telling. Perhaps it's not so much that there are real differences between trans people, but that the difficulty in expressing our truth to those who don't share it makes it appear that we have real differences.

I agree.

I don't think the trans experience can be explained in cis terms.  (It's actually "trans experiences", since each trans person is trans in their own way.)

One of the benefits of cis privilege is that you don't have to be conscious of your gender.  Just as white people don't have to be aware of their race (because they're just "people") and people who speak with the dominant accent in their country can believe that they don't have an accent, so cis people don't have to be aware that their sense of who they are matches their anatomical and social sex.  Because, except when those pesky trans people parade themselves around, there isn't even a concept for them not matching.

Ultimately, if a cis person wants to understand what it's like to be trans, they're going to have to do the work themselves.  It's not something that can be explained.  You have to expand your consciousness to make room for an experience that is alien to you.

It's easier for trans people to understand cis people, because we are saturated with "the cis experience."

BTW, I think there are real differences among trans people, too.  There are plenty of people here who describe things I can't understand.  However, I recognize that that is my limitation and try to simply accept their experiences as real and valid.  A lifetime of being on the receiving end of "I don't understand you, therefore you don't exist" makes you sensitive to these things.

[Dee Marshall]

True, Asche. I don't, nor will I ever, understand how a trans person can live happily without the "right" hormones in their system. I tried one night, for my Sweetie's sake. I barely made it through the night. I tried again on Sunday and before I even missed a dose I couldn't take it. I don't understand trans people who don't need hormones, but I know they're real. There's something common to all of us, I think, that I can't articulate. I only know it's real because other's experiences ring true to me and mine to them. But quintessential trans-ness? It exists, but I have no clue what it is.

[Jen72]

I think the only way to best describe it may be something along the lines of your soul is what it is but fell into the wrong body. I agree its something that is not explainable without experience much like many things in life really.

I can think of and adage that fits in a way what will a cornered rat do? Not saying we are rats of course but the idea that you can not totally explain what it will do because you are not in its hmm feet (shoes). You could only know if you were put in that position.

I know this is horrible and remove if deemed to offensive but an old question what would you do if your plane crashed in the middle of nowhere and there was no food? Basically the instinct of survival or not and you can never truly answer the question if never put in that position.

To be honest its been hard enough to explain it to myself really let alone how to convey what I feel yet I do have doubts too atm just a fight for now.

[LoriLorenz]

For me, I have come to the understanding that in the points that count the most, I am male. Those points are mentally and spiritually, I am male. I have always been able to present more or less androgenously, but identified as female because on thesurface, that is what I saw and what the world told me I was.

Looking back, I always had a more male mentality from the time I was small. My dad has told me that he stopped others from trying to squash my male mannerisms. Mom said I never liked girly stuff. I had a cisfemale friend who got frustrated with me (early 20s) and stalked away after proclaiming "You think like a guy!" to which my mind went, "and that's bad because?" I preferred playing sports and wrestling with my male cousins. In more recent years, I have had a heightened sense of sitting over my own shoulder watching my life. I have come to the realization that is because I don't identify as female, yet identified as "female" because I have a female body. I identify now as Male, and though I have a female body, that's changeable. Back to the early 20s, I had a respected elder female friend who had to teach me how to be feminine and wear a skirt.

I'm still me, but since identifying myself as Trans and more particularly as Male, the paradigm has slipped into its proper position and I'm viewing the world from my own eyes, instead of behind my shoulder as an observer.

[Katelyn]

I've had this thing since I was little that I just gravitate toward femininity when given the chance.

When I was 12, when my mom was first leaving me alone at home, I (through a self dare) tried on my mom's bra and a flood of "girly" feelings came to me that was so wonderful I couldn't deny that I loved it.  It started years and years of cross dressing and me exploring my feminine / girly / womanly feelings. 

I first tried on a woman's long wig 14 years ago and upon seeing myself in the mirror, what I saw staring back at me was the real me.

I can allow myself to talk with my "real" voice and my voice in a short while automatically becomes very feminine (I did train my voice long ago, but it doesn't click unless I am allowed to feel female.) 

I do exercises where I'm allowed to "feel free" and "feel light", and always I start automatically acting very feminine.  When in a friendly environment, I start using feminine gestures without thought.

Seven years ago, when I was going to TG clubs, I "tricked" myself into believing that I was always living as a woman, and in that mental state I felt totally female and I acted feminine virtually automatically, and I had the spirit of a fun, bubbly, feminine young woman.  It's one of the biggest things that depresses me when I remember it.

I've never been interested in having sex as a male.  My idea of sex for the longest time really had been just kissing and foreplay.  Never actually really doing it (other than embarrassment that I was still a virgin.)    Upon allowing myself to explore the idea of having sex as a woman about at least 12 years ago, I absolutely loved it, loved it to the point that all my fantasies gravitated toward being the bottom (with a vagina) and I feel so wonderful when imagining myself being penetrated.

I don't think its about whatever gender I feel, I believe I'm more of an outside-in, that my outside influences what gender I feel, but that from long experience I gravitate toward being female, and so much of me is female, and I'd much rather prefer feeling female.  In addition, I feel like that since I am a feeler, and am naturally emotionally sensitive (despite years of trying to kill off emotions when I was younger), that the male gender is a hostile place to be, vs the female gender being accommodative and even supportive of emotional freedom.  I can't tell you how much I yearn to be in a supportive environment, and being in a gender that is supportive of who you are means a lot to me.

[Katelyn]

That being said, I think the OP wants to know why transgender identify in a way that goes contrary to the application of essentialism as the OP may have hard time sympathizing on why some people do not agree with the application of essentialism when it comes to self-identity. Many cis-individuals have hard time sympathizing with the reasons of why transgender individuals go against essentialism when it comes to gender because a lot of us cis-individuals do not have a experience of feeling a gender and a lot of us identify as what in our birth certificates because it is convenient.

Well, what happens if you born and accepted yourself as male based on your exterior at first, but then through self discovery, you find more and more that your actually like the opposite gender rather than the gender you born in?  And this incongruity thus gives you stress and feelings like your in the wrong gender group, and body as well?  And that staying in your gender group is akin to being in a straight jacket, or being slowly suffocated, because you aren't in an environment that you can freely express yourself?  And then you have to see people of the opposite sex having the same traits as you and being able to live freely, as you silently suffer in an invisible prison created by your own body?  That's kind of like me.

Like you, I don't have a strong sense of gender inside, but the way I want to be, the way that I found myself to be naturally, is largely female.  I may be more gender fluid in the sense that even though many times I don't feel a strong sense of gender, depending on how I express myself I do "feel" the gender, like when I am dressed as female or talk in my female voice for awhile, I do feel strongly female and easily able to identify as female, whereas if conditions are right, I do feel strongly male and "guyish", even though it's temporary, but it only goes to an extent (doesn't transfer over to liking my body or liking to "bang a chick" for instance) and within time (a day to a week) I feel the dysphoria again, and it gets more intense if I have to stay acting like a straight male.  Staying closer to the androgynous territory for me has helped me with my dysphoria, but it probably has kept the "critical mass" from happening to me (where I'd run away from my life and desperately seek to transition) compared to if I still had to pretend that I was a straight male. 

[rachel89]

For me, feminine just feels right, even if I have some stereotypical nerdy male interests, I feel like I am doing the right thing for myself when I look and behave feminine. Acting masculine often feels exactly that, like an act, the problem is that I've had so much experience in it, I am having to learn how to be the person I see myself as. It also seems like there is some kind of "inner force" that pushes me to become more feminine. It almost felt like I wasn't entirely in control the day I went out and purchased my first female clothes and beauty supplies, I just had to. It is that same "inner force" that gets me through painful electrolysis sessions with very little in the way of numbing agents and anti-inflammatories, and makes me feel a little better afterwards because some of the "man shell" was erased to let the woman shine through (even if she is a little red, swollen, and itchy). Female just fits me for some reason, I may be a nerdy, socially awkward female who was raised as a male , but still a female on the inside, and hopefully one day on the outside too.