How to survive being tested in intimate female spaces?

[ClaireIvene]

I feel that being stealth is the best option for some. If one can actually do so it can be preferred because being trans most likely won't become public knowledge and attacks by violent trasphopes will most assuredly not occur. It's really sad for the transwomen that can't really go stealth because of broad male features and/or not possessing natural feminine demeanor. The thing is though one should not worry about being "clocked" so much as for all the "clocking" people know the person may just have pronounced slightly more masculine features than other women. This holds true for some cisfemales as well; so it can be perceived as just that(you don't physically fit the general norm.)

In my experience and a little from what I read, proper body language, voice, confidence and behavior in general goes just as far if not further than appearance alone.

[barbie]

Contextually, how are you using the word "honesty", what are you referring to?

Well, a tricky question.

I do not intentionally hide anything regarding my gender, and I do not have any fear of revealing my identity to the public. For example, I show my ID to the security persons while wearing heels and other stuffs. I show my passport in the immigration desk of any international airport while wearing skirt. Some people ask me whether I am a man or a woman, and I reply that I am biologically male, but I am a kind of transgender, skewed to woman. I am an educator, and I do wear heels and skirts while teaching class or presiding a meeting. Sometimes I meet people with my wife and kids. In Facebook, anybody can see my various photos and videos of myself and my family everyday. I share my miniskirts with my little daughter who loves to touch and try every fashion and makeup item I have purchased.

These would be enough as examples? I am not quite sure.

barbie~~

[Sammy]

I have to admit, when I first read the title of this thread, the picture which appeared in my mind instantly was totally different from what has been discussed so far.

[Zoetrope]

I have to admit, when I first read the title of this thread, the picture which appeared in my mind instantly was totally different from what has been discussed so far.

*laughs involuntarily like Beavis & Butthead*

[Squircle]

^^^ To me it's the forced masculine walk, height, facial features, clothes that seems way out of place and the hulking musculature. But that's just Evelyn's opinion...

I'll be brutally honest, I don't think she passes at all, or even blends. It sounds harsh but she has made a choice to wear clothes that make her stand out, which means she doesn't blend. After that her height and shape stop her passing at a distance, as does her walk, and then once she gets close, her face. It's just the way I see it and I'm aware that I am more likely to pick up on those things but I think it's misleading of people to say that she passes.

Having seen your pics though Evelyn, you do. Obviously I haven't met you in the flesh but you look great and your a million miles away from the lady in the video. You do have a right to be in the spaces you talk about and I understand why you would be nervous but perhaps it's something that will pass in time. Stealth is a very tricky thing because at the end of the day people like us have been through a male puberty, so with me I know that things like my feet don't look right etc. but I think those details would only stand out to those that are in close regular contact with you.

[Evelyn K]

I'll be brutally honest, I don't think she passes at all, or even blends. It sounds harsh but she has made a choice to wear clothes that make her stand out, which means she doesn't blend. After that her height and shape stop her passing at a distance, as does her walk, and then once she gets close, her face. It's just the way I see it and I'm aware that I am more likely to pick up on those things but I think it's misleading of people to say that she passes.

Having seen your pics though Evelyn, you do. Obviously I haven't met you in the flesh but you look great and your a million miles away from the lady in the video. You do have a right to be in the spaces you talk about and I understand why you would be nervous but perhaps it's something that will pass in time. Stealth is a very tricky thing because at the end of the day people like us have been through a male puberty, so with me I know that things like my feet don't look right etc. but I think those details would only stand out to those that are in close regular contact with you.

I don't think calling it out sounds harsh at all... the insipid supportive comments on that youtube video page is telling. But you know the deal. Oh and thanks!

[iKate]

"Stealth" is going about your daily life without people knowing you're trans. "Deep stealth" is completely hiding your past.

Deep stealth is a difficult balancing act from what I gather, plain stealth is not.

[Evelyn K]

A few interesting presentation studies

>-bleeped-<-I

[Violet Bloom]

  I feel the word "trespassing" is a completely accurate way of describing how cis women often feel.  Never did I sense this so strongly as when I was still presenting as a guy while trying to be friends with women on equal footing with any of their other close cis girlfriends.  There was always a cutoff point where I would be excluded from certain things because they were off-limits.

  During my transition I've been extremely careful about assessing businesses to determine whether they are 'women-only spaces'.  Certainly there are spas and hair salons and the like where transwomen and men are absolutely not welcome.  It is most definitely viewed as trespassing into their space or preventing them from relaxing as they only could in a fully-female social group.

  I've being struggling with this issue lately now that I'm about to go full-time.  It's reared it's ugly head now that I'm thinking about trying to join a womens' ice hockey team.  (Not necessarily serious league play.)  One of the health professionals I deal with regularly plays on a team and she polled her teammates for me to get some sense of how they felt about it, particularly in terms of pre/non-op transwomen.  While they were actually all open to it I still have trouble with the idea of entering their changeroom, especially if I signed up alone and were coming into one as a stranger.  I honestly don't feel I could bring myself to walk through that door for the first time (unless I already knew someone there who could 'set the stage' first).  It really doesn't matter how I feel about it - it's entirely how they feel about it.  I feel that I must respect their environment because there is no way I could possibly be stealth in that situation.  No matter how much effort I put into passing there is a point where the illusion will break down and this is where cis women start instinctively acting to exclude.  I'm told there was a woman who transitioned to male and was forced to leave the league.  Given that, I hardly expect to be treated as a full equal myself.

[Jenna Marie]

I'm honestly not sure what you mean by "tested"... but for the most part I agree that it's about confidence. I was recently in the bathroom with someone who would have passed perfectly in the men's room and nobody batted an eye. (I'm assuming butch cis woman because statistically that's the most likely when I was a few miles out from "the lesbian capital of the US," but either way.) If you act like you belong there, with that unquestioning confidence that cis women have in their own womanhood, and you are able to blend in fine with the general population - a big if, but it seems to be the case for you - then 99.99% of the time you won't have an issue. And that last 0.001% you react like a cis woman would and tell 'em to ->-bleeped-<- off.

I'm post-op now and most people don't realize that the average person can't clock that (in other words, they think a neovagina will look like some frankenpussy that they can easily ID as unnatural), so these days I always have the option of dropping my pants. But I've walked the walk; I've not only been in what you're calling "intimate" spaces consistently and done fine, but I had some trials by fire. I once took a shower in a gym locker room with no shower curtains or anything, surrounded by other women, and another time had a bra fitting done, both while still pre-op. It was nerve-wracking as hell, but nobody questioned me at all.

[kittenpower]

Well here's the thing. Can we define what stealth is? I've seen varying opinions of what this means and now even I'm confused. To me being "stealth" means passing as a woman unquestionably. To others, completely passing has different meanings.

For instance, take a look at the comments in this youtube video


Just a few comments down



Is this considered stealthy enough presentation to pass in intimate female spaces? Everyone says she's passing. Am I being too hard on myself and paranoid?

Definitely not blending, let alone stealth; her walk, posture, body frame, and face, did not say cis.

[Alexis2107]

Before transitioning, I always felt awkward in the female spaces such as clothing rooms, woman's department (bra/underware/etc), make up, etc..

Now fast forward to being full time, I do not feel awkward in these spaces any more.  I feel like I have gained membership to this 'club' and now I can go to these places.  It's totally awesome. 

However, I am beginning to get uncomfortable in men spaces.  Such as sporting good areas where there are bunch of men, my fiance' asked me to pick up beer on the way home other day at this particular beer shop, and was just full of men no women... and of course they all gawking at me... and it's like, wow... this is a blast from the past.. feeling like I do not fit in these areas any longer.

I like to know if anyone has had similar experience.

BTW my advice is -- do not look nervous, look natural.. do NOT try to act like a woman because you'll fail.. just be yourself, act natural... the woman moves will come naturally... if you try too hard you'll stand out like a squeaky wheel. 

Lexi

[iKate]

Well here's the thing. Can we define what stealth is? I've seen varying opinions of what this means and now even I'm confused. To me being "stealth" means passing as a woman unquestionably. To others, completely passing has different meanings.

For instance, take a look at the comments in this youtube video


Just a few comments down



Is this considered stealthy enough presentation to pass in intimate female spaces? Everyone says she's passing. Am I being too hard on myself and paranoid?

She really looks "off" in that video. The gait is definitely male, and the way her arms are positioned is a big tip off. It would definitely cause some people to dig deeper.

The dress and heels aren't really helping either. 

[iKate]

I was recently clocked and it shook Evelyn's foundation a bit - like, mebe to the core. So I sit here thinking, how will I navigate tough real life tests such as a visit to the womens spa, a visit to victoria secret or heck even a date with an experienced and attractive hetero man? (not that I'm entertaining doing that btw, lez!)

I had no idea VS was an intimate space? To me it's a store where I go to buy stuff...

[mac1]

................................ I once took a shower in a gym locker room with no shower curtains or anything, surrounded by other women, and another time had a bra fitting done, both while still pre-op. It was nerve-wracking as hell, but nobody questioned me at all.

How did you manage that?

[Evelyn K]

Definitely not blending, let alone stealth; her walk, posture, body frame, and face, did not say cis.

Others would argue otherwise "complete pass!" "classy lady!" maybe we shouldn't hurt their feelings I had to remind myself having just awoken with clearer thinking that this is a support forum and we are all sisters here after all, singing kumbaya.

So in light of this maybe I'm more inclined to disagree. She's beautiful, and definite pass!

[Evelyn K]

I had no idea VS was an intimate space? To me it's a store where I go to buy stuff...

Intimate in the sense of getting fitted for lingerie with assistance in view of other women half nude trying on their own things. Stuff like that. I'm embarrassed to say that I've never been in the fitting area of VS so maybe my fears are unjustified. But that's what they do there, yes?

[Evelyn K]

Here's an interesting presentation example

I notice they are being read when on the escalator. A few very apparent things caught my eye right at the outset. But I have no idea what their faces look like.

[iKate]

Intimate in the sense of getting fitted for lingerie with assistance in view of other women half nude trying on their own things. Stuff like that. I'm embarrassed to say that I've never been in the fitting area of VS so maybe my fears are unjustified. But that's what they do there, yes?

Ahaaa. Okay.

Yeah, I don't have other people fit me, I'm pre-op. Maybe I'll go for a bra fitting sooner or later.

Somehow I thought the fitting rooms were private. I used them (female ones) at department stores without issue, even with my obviously male voice. They don't really say anything, they know I'm trans most likely.

[iKate]

Here's an interesting presentation example

I notice they are being read when on the escalator. A few very apparent things caught my eye right at the outset. But I have no idea what their faces look like.

I noticed several things immediately too.

Are these people MTF or simply crossdressers? It almost looks like they are CDers experimenting with presentation in public.