Do you find it difficult to think of the unpassables as female? (taboo topic)

[Shana A]

I really despise this weird segregation of passable/unpassable.  It's so internet.

Sarah,

I despise this segregation too. I came out as trans in 1993, before I was aware of any trans presence on the internet, and unfortunately, I ran into this hierarchy face to face at almost every trans event or group I encountered then too. This "who's at the bottom of the ladder" has existed for way too long in our community. Grrrr.

zythyra

[Nero]

Good evening guys and dolls.
I'm curious as to whether this difficulty is limited to the cisgendered.
Do you find it difficult to think or refer to unpassable transwomen as female?
To think and refer to unpassable transmen as male?

Nero

I'm kind of curious why you limit it to transwomen...

Not limited. See the above in bold, lol. The subject came up because the particular incident involved a transwoman.

...are they somehow held up to a different standard than transmen?

No.

Do transwomen somehow have to look more passable before they're accepted as female?

Well, I think passability is somewhat more of an issue among transwomen than transmen.
For several reasons:

a. Transwomen do get the short end of the stick when it comes to passability. T is such a powerful chemical and it poisons their bodies. Electrolysis, FFS, voice training, etc. Not to mention the things that cannot be altered.
While transmen have only to take T to pass as male. Not the same amount of work involved.
Another thing is that a feminine looking transman may just look like a very young man or teenage boy.

b. The general public (outside of places with large trans awareness) has likely never heard of transmen or if they have, the thought wouldn't likely pop into their head everytime they see a small, softer voiced man.
But everybody is aware of ->-bleeped-<-s and drag queens, and I think that makes it harder on transwomen because if there's anything masculine looking about them at all, people will just think 'oh, it's a ->-bleeped-<-.'

c. Also, if a transman is read, it's 'oh, that's just a bull dyke.' There are not the same implications as being seen as a ->-bleeped-<-. Stakes are much higher for transwomen.

So the deck just is not stacked in favor of transwomen when it comes to passing. It all boils down to the power of testosterone.

[Keira]

What I am really annoyed by is the kneejerk reaction of people in this group whenever we point out that maybe we will not react the same way as with a GG. The difference may be subtle and may even disapeer as we know the individual better, but that reaction will undoubtably be there.

The TS individual in front may not even know there's a difference, but there will be even if the person is the most liberal on earth. It has nothing to do with not being their friends or being ostratized, building strawman arguments is the oldest trick on earth and it doesn't fly at all with me.

Even if the difference is subtle, there WILL be a difference at least initially. That person's still a human being who will get all my respect regardless, but my reaction will get skewed in some way.

[Nero]

There's not a 'need' to treat X and Y differently, it's more of a subconscious thing. Automatic. Not something done intentionally.
Like with Tink's situation (correct me if I'm wrong, Tink), she was relating to them in the way women relate to their girlfriends.
But when she saw them, she felt uncomfortable and could no longer relate to them as girlfriends.
She couldn't match the photos to the identities, and it was as if suddenly some men walked into a women's spa house or something - the conversation and laughter stops, everyone's checking to ensure her robe is providing adequate coverage, etc.

All the discussion about 'what is female or male' is head-oriented stuff and an interesting and important matters to discuss,  but not something I experience in an intuitive, unconscious way. The vast, vast majority of people (and very likely most genderqueers) do, in fact, gender people whether they like it or not. And while one might have a more sophisticated take on the gendering process and call many of its assumptions into question, that doesn't mean the gendering isn't happening at its almost primitive (dumb?) level.

Doesn't that speak to more of a social problem that is solvable rather than just shrug and place the blame on "i can't help it"? If there's no need for it then there should be a concious effort to not do it. Blaming it on 'automatic' is just a cop-out. 

In a very loose sense it smells like the "gay panic defense", that you just can't help your reaction to what you see which we all know is just completley untrue.

It IS automatic though. Involuntary response. You see someone, you assess them, and not just in gender either.
Can you not tell whether someone is black or white, tall or short, fat or thin, automatically when you see them?
Gender is no different. We have eyes - it IS automatic.

[tinkerbell]

I agree Nero, it is an automatic response and normally you don't have control over it.  I don't intend to go off topic here, but I want to say something.

BTW it is not a hypothetical situation but something that happened to me.   One time, not long ago, I refused to share a hotel room with someone who didn't pass as a woman.  She indentified as TS, but was only living part-time as a woman.  She had just begun electrolysis and needless to say her demeanor and appearance were still very *male*.  I absolutely refused to share a hotel room with this person, for I couldn't see her as female.  Of course I never told her that; all I did was to talk to the person who was organizing the event and expressed my concerns.

Nowadays, this person is living fulltime, HRT has transformed her appearance, and she has improved her demeanor considerably.  I wouldn't mind to share a room with her now.  I don't know why I am saying this.  I guess I still feel horrible about what I did, but at that particular time, it made perfect sense (to me at least).    *sighs*

tink

[Nero]

In a very loose sense it smells like the "gay panic defense", that you just can't help your reaction to what you see which we all know is just completley untrue.

What do you mean by that statement? That you can help noticing whether someone's tall or not? Fat or not?
How exactly? Do a chant in your head 'this 7' tall person is not tall, they are short, not tall , short, not tall, short'?
See, when you ascribe that to other obvious physical characteristics, it seems absurd, doesn't it?

[Jaycie]

It IS automatic though. Involuntary response. You see someone, you assess them, and not just in gender either.
Can you not tell whether someone is black or white, tall or short, fat or thin, automatically when you see them?
Gender is no different. We have eyes - it IS automatic.

What do you mean by that statement? That you can help noticing whether someone's tall or not? Fat or not?
How exactly? Do a chant in your head 'this 7' tall person is not tall, they are short, not tall , short, not tall, short'?
See, when you ascribe that to other obvious physical characteristics, it seems absurd, doesn't it?

Well,  first off,  how can 'gender' be automatic to begin with when you can only see the physical. I would think that just about anyone here would agree that gender is much much more than just what you see 'automatically'.

As for your example of height and such,  all of those are completely relative.  If you're 6' 9" that 7' person doesn't seem so tall anymore.  If you're treating people differently because of how tall they are or how much they weigh i think there would be quite a bit larger of a problem there to begin with.  ( pun not intended )

[no_id]

Well, technically you don't assess someone on gender identity since gender identity and sex are equivelant in socio-typical perception. In many cases gender, is therefore, invisible when not apparent in gender expression and behaviour in which the first-mentioned is the most prominent (behaviour becomes invisible if not corresponding with expression).

While gender as sex is examined according to preset images, height and weight are determined according in relation to ourselves: someone who is 5'2 may find someone slightly taller as them as to be of average length while an individual around six feet may be considered tall -- in relation to self principle.

And that's all I got to say on the subject so have phun

[tinkerbell]

Well,  first off,  how can 'gender' be automatic to begin with when you can only see the physical. I would think that just about anyone here would agree that gender is much much more than just what you see 'automatically'.

True Jaycie, but we are not mind-readers.  Gender is psychological; IOW you can't see it.  When you meet someone for the very first time, you  go by what they look like.  Are they presenting as male or female?  this is how we (people) determine gender at first;  The initial reaction is automatic.

Afterwards, when you get to know the person (and assuming they tell you their gender issues), then you can call them whatever they wish to be called.  My two cents.

tink

[Nero]

It IS automatic though. Involuntary response. You see someone, you assess them, and not just in gender either.
Can you not tell whether someone is black or white, tall or short, fat or thin, automatically when you see them?
Gender is no different. We have eyes - it IS automatic.

What do you mean by that statement? That you can help noticing whether someone's tall or not? Fat or not?
How exactly? Do a chant in your head 'this 7' tall person is not tall, they are short, not tall , short, not tall, short'?
See, when you ascribe that to other obvious physical characteristics, it seems absurd, doesn't it?

Well,  first off,  how can 'gender' be automatic to begin with when you can only see the physical. I would think that just about anyone here would agree that gender is much much more than just what you see 'automatically'.

As for your example of height and such,  all of those are completely relative.  If you're 6' 9" that 7' person doesn't seem so tall anymore.  If you're treating people differently because of how tall they are or how much they weigh i think there would be quite a bit larger of a problem there to begin with.  ( pun not intended )

Well yes, you can not see someone's 'gender', but you can someone's sex - or the sex they most closely resemble anyway.
It's not about treating people differently. It's about noticing that they're tall or not, fat or not.
And yes, just as a 7' person doesn't seem tall to a 6'9 person, some people will pass with some people, but be read by others.

[Shana A]

It IS automatic though. Involuntary response. You see someone, you assess them, and not just in gender either.
Can you not tell whether someone is black or white, tall or short, fat or thin, automatically when you see them?
Gender is no different. We have eyes - it IS automatic.

Yes, as humans we do naturally see and assess. But we don't see everything. We might recognize male or female external characteristics, but we don't automatically know what gender the person is. Maybe we don't what what sex they are either. What assumptions we make, and our judgment of that person based on our assumptions, is the deeper issue. Generally someone doesn't get bashed because they're short or tall. As gender variant people, how we are seen, and subsequent judgment is a concern for us.

Zythyra

[Keira]

People are mixing two things here.
Even if you do address the person is the correct gender
are their friend, etc. Doesn't mean you will treat them
as you would a GG.

After you know them well and they are your close friend,
maybe this dictinction doesn't matter anymore. But,
initially, there will be an unconscious difference.

That's the reason some people
want to be stealth or stay stealth, because they want to be treated
exactly as females; they don't want a close fac-simile.

[Nero]

Anyway, I can see you, and others, seem to feel the very question this thread poses as very reactionary, perhaps threatening and 'old school' while I totally relate to it as the way things really are. It describes so accurately how I've been gendered in the past. We're coming at it from very different experiences and expectations.

ciao,
Gina M.

Agreed. We just don't live in a world with no gender. Instantly categorizing someone as male or female is the most primitive, instinctual, involuntary thing. We blink our eyes without being conscious of it, we breathe without being conscious of the action - same with this. Determining whether one was male or female was essential for our survival as a species. It's ingrained through the countless generations of humankind. You can't turn it off just like that.
Thousands of years from now, humans will still see gender.

[Tedill]

Agreed. We just don't live in a world with no gender. Instantly categorizing someone as male or female is the most primitive, instinctual, involuntary thing. We blink our eyes without being conscious of it, we breathe without being conscious of the action - same with this. Determining whether one was male or female was essential for our survival as a species. It's ingrained through the countless generations of humankind. You can't turn it off just like that.
Thousands of years from now, humans will still see gender.

I don't see it that way, now I might see it that way if I believed that your sex organs determine your gender.  I however thought that most people here agreed that sex != gender, they are two separate issues.  I understand what both Jaycie and no_id are saying and I happen to agree with them.  In a community as small as this I would think there would be more support.  There is already a large group of society as a whole that would love to bring us down, we don't need help from the inside to tear down the protective walls that have been built up over the years.


Ted

[SarahFaceDoom]

People are mixing two things here.
Even if you do address the person is the correct gender
are their friend, etc. Doesn't mean you will treat them
as you would a GG.

Who says?

[tinkerbell]

I don't see it that way, now I might see it that way if I believed that your sex organs determine your gender.  I however thought that most people here agreed that sex != gender, they are two separate issues.  I understand what both Jaycie and no_id are saying and I happen to agree with them.  In a community as small as this I would think there would be more support.  There is already a large group of society as a whole that would love to bring us down, we don't need help from the inside to tear down the protective walls that have been built up over the years.
Ted

Hi Ted, welcome to Susan's!  why not post an introduction at the following link:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,8.0.html

so that everyone can get to know you? 

Enjoy your stay!

tink

[Keira]

Sarah, how can you know?
Once you know someone's not a GG, how can you really say your reactions will exactly be the same. Maybe the difference is subtle or large, but there is probably is a difference; unless the difference passes a threshold, the person in front and even yourself may not see the difference.

Gendering is something that happens from 1 year on, its not fully under our conscious control and reactions to it is also not fully under our control, though for some the resulting reaction may be almost like that to a GG; but that's not the norm, though again that doesn't mean the other person will feel a slight unless they can sense (or care) about the difference.

And again, why is this an issue of "we should support people more"!!! We are talking about an innate reaction and how it influences our unconsious and conscious actions.

How is saying that we will treat a person with respect and as female, but our reactions at least at a unconscious level, will differ from those to a GG, being unsupportive?

Should we become aliens and suppress an autonomous response millions of years in the making!!

Sheeesh. There is such things as reality, even if you are supportive.

[RebeccaFog]

Oh no Nero, what are you going to get me into now?  Okay, you want honesty? here it is:

I have had certain experiences in my life pertaining to this.  As you probably know, I have become an internet addict and have been frequenting TS sites in the last year.  Well, I used to be very close to certain people on the web.  They identified themselves as females, expressed themselves as females on their posts but didn't have a picture of themselves posted.

Eventually, these women decided to share their photos with everyone on the board, and needless to say, I was rather surprised to see that their physical characteristics did not match what they had been bragging about for months.

Indeed, like your mom said, they looked like men (and sorry I don't intend to offend anyone with this remark, I am just explaining my experience).  After looking at their photographs, I found it really difficult to relate to them as women/females.  As a matter of fact I felt very awkward just by exchanging some emails with them.  It seemed that the whole enchantment had been broken.  I couldn't see them as before anymore.  I was disappointed with myself because I thought that after SRS, I had grown past that issue, but I hadn't.

I don't know if this helps or if I am making any sense at all, but I certainly understand your mom; it is extremely difficult to relate to someone as female when that someone doesn't look like one.  Again, perhaps I have some insecurity issues I have to work on; who knows; I just didn't feel comfortable looking at their photos and acknowledging they were women like I was.
I hope I haven't offended anyone and if I have, I deeply apologize.

tink

   I can't see how you could have offended anyone.  I have the same issue.  I have found, however, that if I associate with the person over time, I begin to see them as the person who they really wish to be.  I guess we have a lifetime of expectations, habit, and training to overcome, but I don't believe it is malicious.  Just the fact that we recognize that we have to put some effort into accepting someone who doesn't easily pass probably shows that we are in a learning process of our own.
  The whole trans deal is a learning process from every angle of our existence.  It was actually easier for me to accept the concept of transsexuality than it's been to live my ideal in how we should think about it.


Rebis

[Nero]

Agreed. We just don't live in a world with no gender. Instantly categorizing someone as male or female is the most primitive, instinctual, involuntary thing. We blink our eyes without being conscious of it, we breathe without being conscious of the action - same with this. Determining whether one was male or female was essential for our survival as a species. It's ingrained through the countless generations of humankind. You can't turn it off just like that.
Thousands of years from now, humans will still see gender.

I don't see it that way, now I might see it that way if I believed that your sex organs determine your gender.  I however thought that most people here agreed that sex != gender, they are two separate issues.  I understand what both Jaycie and no_id are saying and I happen to agree with them.  In a community as small as this I would think there would be more support.  There is already a large group of society as a whole that would love to bring us down, we don't need help from the inside to tear down the protective walls that have been built up over the years.


Ted

Genitals aren't the only part of it. Unless you live in a nudist colony, you likely don't see the genitalia of everyone you meet. You DO see their face, body type, etc.  Sex does not equal gender. I never said anything of the kind.

Why is it everytime someone here disagrees on something, we hear the 'I expected more support' complaint?
How exactly am I being unsupportive? One of my pet peeves with the trans community is that some are of the opinion that transpeople should be so different from non-trans. As if being trans blinds me from noticing gender?
And if it doesn't, I'm not being true to my community?
I'm really trying to get the gist of what some are saying in this thread. Is the general point that I should be blind?

[RebeccaFog]

I try to follow the golden rule.  Treat everyone the way I would want to be treated.

Uh oh.  If I wanted to be treated like a pumpkin, you'd hack me up and display me on your doorstep.  If ever we meet, I'll need to be cautious around you.