Yeson booked for July

[Dana88]

Hey everyone! So I just got my date at Yeson for my voice surgery. I had some questions for those who have been there, mostly logistical stuff.

Any recommendations for hotels in the area?

Also, how did you navigate the city for a week being unable to speak?

How up to doing touristy things are you while there?

Lastly! I know your mileage may vary, but for me, one of my first major brushes with dysphoria was when my voice changed. I sang all the time when I was a little kid, was the lead in all the school shows and all that jazz. Unsurprisingly, when I could sing what I wanted to, the young trans kid that I was, I would sing Fantine/Eponine, Maureen/Mimi, Pocahontas... basically any of the diva girl roles haha. My voice was such a part of my identity. When my voice changed it was actually pretty traumatic. I kept on singing but it started a long love hate relationship with my voice. These days I'm a composer, so while I do sing on demos of stuff to give to singers, I don't necessarily need the most gorgeous or amazing voice on earth. But for me, even though I've developed a pretty feminine speaking voice, it's still important to me to conquer these early dysphoric memories in a permanent way. It'd make me feel so much better. ANYWAY, what I'm getting to is, I know Yeson says that you can sing in a feminine range eventually with their technique. I'm trying not to get my hopes up on that front. But what are the chances that I can regain at least *some* of the singing voice I lost due to male puberty? Anyone a singer who had VFS with Yeson?

Thanks!

[Cristal Muso]

Hi Dana,

first of all good luck for your glottoplasty with Dr Kim

I will have this type of surgery in 27 days in Belgium.

I've the same concerns about singing (I'm a pro musician 1st world harmonica performer with 17 million views on Youtube amongst other things). I think you'll be able to sing after 8 to 12 months after the surgery (when I say singing is professionally)  if you will educate your voice patiently and letting your vocal chords recovering. I think you'll no longer get access to the awful lows (eh that's the point of this surgery) but I don't really think (I'm not quite sure) that you might go so much higher than you actual head voice.

About regaining the voice you once had before puberty it's not possible. For the male body the trachea is moving down during puberty, it modifies the resonators, this is why it's SO important to re educate your voice understanding where the best female voice is (from chest to head, and understanding female prosody)

[Dana88]

Hi Dana,

first of all good luck for your glottoplasty with Dr Kim

I will have this type of surgery in 27 days in Belgium.

I've the same concerns about singing (I'm a pro musician 1st world harmonica performer with 17 million views on Youtube amongst other things). I think you'll be able to sing after 8 to 12 months after the surgery (when I say singing is professionally)  if you will educate your voice patiently and letting your vocal chords recovering. I think you'll no longer get access to the awful lows (eh that's the point of this surgery) but I don't really think (I'm not quite sure) that you might go so much higher than you actual head voice.

About regaining the voice you once had before puberty it's not possible. For the male body the trachea is moving down during puberty, it modifies the resonators, this is why it's SO important to re educate your voice understanding where the best female voice is (from chest to head, and understanding female prosody)

Heya! Thanks for the reply and good luck with your surgery as well! And yeah, I wasn't saying regain the voice I had pre-puberty. I know that's not going to happen. Even if I never went through male puberty, my voice would have changed and matured as a woman even if my voice had never known testosterone. To clarify I mean will it be possible to have a more feminine register balance and range while singing? I know Yeson says yes, but it would definitely be nice to hear first hand accounts.

[Cristal Muso]

Heya! Thanks for the reply and good luck with your surgery as well! And yeah, I wasn't saying regain the voice I had pre-puberty. I know that's not going to happen. Even if I never went through male puberty, my voice would have changed and matured as a woman even if my voice had never known testosterone. To clarify I mean will it be possible to have a more feminine register balance and range while singing? I know Yeson says yes, but it would definitely be nice to hear first hand accounts.

I think we will find out almost together. I've opened a thread here and around 6 months after the surgery (December)  I will resume the work on my voice. I will keep you updated on the situation

[iKate]

Dana, i am there late June.  I'm staying at Phil house. My mom is going with me.

[anjaq]

Hi.

Regarding the hotels, I think most patients stay either in the Hotel that Yeson recommend which is near the Clinic, or in Phil House. The second one is a bit cheaper , especially if you are travelling with company. For the hotels, make sure you get a non smoker room. Some patients have used other accomodation options though like renting a vacation flat, other hotels that have a good rating - Gangnam is rather expensive though, and since you only have 3 visits at the clinic, its not really worth trying to be as close to it as possible.

Navigating the city is easy. Most signs in the city center area are in englisch as well, in the subway , everything is in englisch as well. Restaurants often have english language menus if they are in the more tourist areas, and many have pictures of the menu items. Post OP when you are mute, you can use your smartphone to make photos of menu items and show them to the waitress, or you can type in english, if you are in a tourist, international, student or shopping area. You will also get some printouts with english/korean vital sentences about food, transportation, adress of the clinic etc. You can just show and point them to anyone. Plus you can of course sign, which worked well for me.

I would definitely recommend some sightseeing. The surgery is leaving you with little pain in the days after, on day 2 or 3 you wont even notice much at all, so sitting in the hotel at that time just becomes boring. The royal palace is worth a visit, they have guided tours in english. The N Seoul Tower apparently is good. Some have done that tour to the DMZ for a day, but I skipped that one because we kind of found this sort of tourism a bit weird and expensive. There are a few temples and museums to see and the Hangkok village.

I think singing certainly works, how well it really works, especially in terms of being professional and how easy it is to hit the right resonance, others have to say. I think resonance generally is still an issue post op - most of the post op exercises seem to aim at changing the resonance towards more female patterns. The size and length of the area between vocal folds and mouth cannot be changed by surgery, but has to be dealt with by training.

[Dana88]

Hi.

Regarding the hotels, I think most patients stay either in the Hotel that Yeson recommend which is near the Clinic, or in Phil House. The second one is a bit cheaper , especially if you are travelling with company. For the hotels, make sure you get a non smoker room. Some patients have used other accomodation options though like renting a vacation flat, other hotels that have a good rating - Gangnam is rather expensive though, and since you only have 3 visits at the clinic, its not really worth trying to be as close to it as possible.

Navigating the city is easy. Most signs in the city center area are in englisch as well, in the subway , everything is in englisch as well. Restaurants often have english language menus if they are in the more tourist areas, and many have pictures of the menu items. Post OP when you are mute, you can use your smartphone to make photos of menu items and show them to the waitress, or you can type in english, if you are in a tourist, international, student or shopping area. You will also get some printouts with english/korean vital sentences about food, transportation, adress of the clinic etc. You can just show and point them to anyone. Plus you can of course sign, which worked well for me.

I would definitely recommend some sightseeing. The surgery is leaving you with little pain in the days after, on day 2 or 3 you wont even notice much at all, so sitting in the hotel at that time just becomes boring. The royal palace is worth a visit, they have guided tours in english. The N Seoul Tower apparently is good. Some have done that tour to the DMZ for a day, but I skipped that one because we kind of found this sort of tourism a bit weird and expensive. There are a few temples and museums to see and the Hangkok village.

I think singing certainly works, how well it really works, especially in terms of being professional and how easy it is to hit the right resonance, others have to say. I think resonance generally is still an issue post op - most of the post op exercises seem to aim at changing the resonance towards more female patterns. The size and length of the area between vocal folds and mouth cannot be changed by surgery, but has to be dealt with by training.

Thanks so much for the pointers! Much appreciated :-). I'm lucky, my older brother is gonna come with me. So that'll be helpful for getting around.

Also re: singing. Yeah, basically I need serviceable. I don't make money off of my singing voice. I just need something I can record composer demos with. And my plan (I did talk with Yeson about it) was once I'm able to sing to start seeing a voice teacher again to nail down the other parts that don't have to do with range. But for me that's the main concern, cause I've heard with some of the voice surgery techniques you can lose notes on the top as well as the bottom because of scar tissue and chord tightening, but Yeson says that because of their very non invasive technique they can at least shift the range to a female range without losing notes on top/in fact gaining notes on top. I was just trying to get a sense of how realistic that is.

[anjaq]

If your brother is coming with you, Phil House certainly is the cheapest option, $600 or so for both of you for the stay.

Regarding the singing voice - I personally think it will be fine. I can only comment from my own experience on the pitch range - the upper pitch range did not change much. Presently I am still 1-2 notes below my pre OP maximum pitch (I think I can reach about 760-850 Hz now and pre op I was up to 880-950 Hz depending on the analysis), but I see improvement every week, so I am confident to get back to my pre op upper limit.

What I have some issues with is singing in chest voice (below the middle C) - this is not working for me as of now, but someone else has to comment on that since I am just 11 weeks post op and still in the recovery phase.

[Dana88]

If your brother is coming with you, Phil House certainly is the cheapest option, $600 or so for both of you for the stay.

Regarding the singing voice - I personally think it will be fine. I can only comment from my own experience on the pitch range - the upper pitch range did not change much. Presently I am still 1-2 notes below my pre OP maximum pitch (I think I can reach about 760-850 Hz now and pre op I was up to 880-950 Hz depending on the analysis), but I see improvement every week, so I am confident to get back to my pre op upper limit.

What I have some issues with is singing in chest voice (below the middle C) - this is not working for me as of now, but someone else has to comment on that since I am just 11 weeks post op and still in the recovery phase.

Thanks for all the advice and pointers! I appreciate it. Also, last question, is there any way to see about this vocal tremor thing before I go? Also, if I have it, how important is it that I do the Botox thing? I read some people saying if you have it you really need to do the Botox, and others who said Dr. Kim diagnosis everyone with a tremor and has a tendency to over-recommends Botox and that you should follow your instincts on it. I'm just trying to gauge how likely or unlikely it is that I'm gonna need to shell out another $4,000 for that.

[iKate]

I would definitely recommend some sightseeing. The surgery is leaving you with little pain in the days after, on day 2 or 3 you wont even notice much at all, so sitting in the hotel at that time just becomes boring. The royal palace is worth a visit, they have guided tours in english. The N Seoul Tower apparently is good. Some have done that tour to the DMZ for a day, but I skipped that one because we kind of found this sort of tourism a bit weird and expensive. There are a few temples and museums to see and the Hangkok village.

I am really interested in seeing the DMZ.

[iKate]

Thanks for all the advice and pointers! I appreciate it. Also, last question, is there any way to see about this vocal tremor thing before I go? Also, if I have it, how important is it that I do the Botox thing? I read some people saying if you have it you really need to do the Botox, and others who said Dr. Kim diagnosis everyone with a tremor and has a tendency to over-recommends Botox and that you should follow your instincts on it. I'm just trying to gauge how likely or unlikely it is that I'm gonna need to shell out another $4,000 for that.

It's not $4000 it's more like $400.

[Dana88]

It's not $4000 it's more like $400.

Hahahahaha. You are correct. I misread the email from them. NOW I feel better. I was like, wait, that seems pricey... I may get there and need to shell out an additional 4k!?!? So, glad you pointed that out thus making me realize I misread :-P. Phew.

[iKate]

Yeah I'm planning on getting it

[anjaq]

I think $400 is not such a big deal once you pay $1000 or so for the whole thing - If its really needed is another question. Der Kim diagnoses everyone with a vocal tremor, I am not sure this is always so strong it needs treatment with medication. I can imagine that many of us have some sort of imbalance there because of trying to speak in a different way for usually a prolonged time before the surgery. But if it always needs Botox... I dont know. I think a side effect that is helpful is however that you cannot overuse your voice so easily during the first months, it may improve the healing. It may also make it easier to adapt to the new voice with some muscles not being active right away... If you want to avoid it, you can try to really practice singing a straight note without pitch variation and without breaking in between. Then do this when they ask you to hold a note - if you manage to hold the pitch perfectly, without vibrato and not breaking or having some slight vocal fry in between, he might let you go without - Amy managed to get this done that way.

[kwala]

If your brother is coming with you, Phil House certainly is the cheapest option, $600 or so for both of you for the stay.

Regarding the singing voice - I personally think it will be fine. I can only comment from my own experience on the pitch range - the upper pitch range did not change much. Presently I am still 1-2 notes below my pre OP maximum pitch (I think I can reach about 760-850 Hz now and pre op I was up to 880-950 Hz depending on the analysis), but I see improvement every week, so I am confident to get back to my pre op upper limit.

What I have some issues with is singing in chest voice (below the middle C) - this is not working for me as of now, but someone else has to comment on that since I am just 11 weeks post op and still in the recovery phase.

That's interesting.  Below middle C is already venturing into the lowest part of most female voices so perhaps it's because it is near your new cutoff point?  Most women have to really focus to sustain notes down there, so that's another sign that your voice is feminized

I know you're only 2+ months into recovery, but I'm really curious, do you feel like you have a new "break point" where your chest voice flips into head?  Or is it the same but the higher chest notes are easier?

[anjaq]

Well - I would not say that below the middle C (260 Hz) is already lower female range! Average female pitch is around 200-220 Hz, lower female voices are at something like 180 Hz and above 260 Hz it is actually a bit too high. Dr Kim said, I should not force my voice up in pitch as I did pre op because I would get into the 260 Hz range then and that would be too high.

My voice therapist has her switch to the head voice in about the same area as I do, which is around the middle C and the D above it - that area is the transition area from chest/speaking voice to head/singing voice. She said that usually while speaking, most women sometimes cross that border for short words or sylabils but speaking happens below that transition zone. So, I am a bit unhappy that my chest voice is still a bit unstable, I hope it will just take some time to stabilize.

The break into the head voice seems not to have changed much. If so, it has lowered itself a bit, but as I understand it, this point is not dependent on the vocal chord length. It seems to be similar in males and females.

My "cut off point" is still rather low. My lowest note I can do is a low A (around 115 Hz), if I use a female resonance pattern, the lowest seems to be around C or D (130-150 Hz).

[kwala]

Well - I would not say that below the middle C (260 Hz) is already lower female range! Average female pitch is around 200-220 Hz, lower female voices are at something like 180 Hz and above 260 Hz it is actually a bit too high. Dr Kim said, I should not force my voice up in pitch as I did pre op because I would get into the 260 Hz range then and that would be too high.

My voice therapist has her switch to the head voice in about the same area as I do, which is around the middle C and the D above it - that area is the transition area from chest/speaking voice to head/singing voice. She said that usually while speaking, most women sometimes cross that border for short words or sylabils but speaking happens below that transition zone. So, I am a bit unhappy that my chest voice is still a bit unstable, I hope it will just take some time to stabilize.

The break into the head voice seems not to have changed much. If so, it has lowered itself a bit, but as I understand it, this point is not dependent on the vocal chord length. It seems to be similar in males and females.

My "cut off point" is still rather low. My lowest note I can do is a low A (around 115 Hz), if I use a female resonance pattern, the lowest seems to be around C or D (130-150 Hz).

Ah! For some reason I was misreading as the "C below middle C." Sorry! That makes a lot more sense now.  I think it's normal for a lower female voice to break right around that area so it makes perfect sense that your new, not fully healed voice is still figuring that area out.  Sorry for the misunderstanding

[anjaq]

LOL, yeah ok, the C below the middle C is around 130 Hz and its where my pre op voice was when I was not putting any effort into it but also not trying to sound male - this are is now about the lowest I can still comfortably use if I want to, below that its really forcing it down.

For some reason however, I often do drop in that range around the 130-150 Hz range still, which kond of bugs me and I hope it will sort itself out with time.

[Teslagirl]

I'll probably be there in as July well. (the cancellation appointment I was offered was reclaimed by the original owner).

I don't get the head/chest voice thing. When I was learning to control resonance, I was told to always speak from the head, not the chest, and I've done this ever since and have 99.9% acceptance from other people as to the gender of my voice. Will I need to learn to speak from my chest all over again?

Sarah.

[anjaq]

Chest voice and head voice is something different from chest resonance and head resonance.

I believe it to be like this:
Normally when speaking, one should use the chest voice but head resonance (female speaking voice).
Head voice and head resonance is for singing.
Chest voice and chest resonance is male speaking pattern.
Head voice and chest resonance is the male falsetto.

I am not sure if this is corrent, but it is my impression