Which corrective feminizing surgery would you go for first?

[Carrie Liz]

I'm not sure who you were addressing your last paragraph to.  I agree, but would extend the logic in the opposite direction, too ... pre-transition.  Strictly and narrowly speaking, transition doesn't create identity.  It actualizes it, of course, but it does not make a woman out of a man.  THAT question (if there even was one) should be firmly, finally, and completely resolved before transition!  As such, once someone has that degree of certainty, there is nothing to prevent them working on any gender-related or gender-created issues NOW.

It's addressed to everyone, because the entire topic at hand was basically asking "there has been a time or two where my being female hasn't really sat in with some folks, and I've wished I could wear a sign that says, "I have a vagina!"... It's made me wonder, is there one surgery in particular that really thrusts you into femininity and yells that you are female moreso than others?"

Basically, that means that the OP was looking for advice on which procedure leads to the greatest social acceptance of a trans person, and which one will help that femininity become solidified and unquestionable.

Lots of trans people expect that there will be a magic-bullet answer, one procedure that after which they'll never have to worry about being stigmatized as trans again, they'll be perfectly "passable" and socially-acceptable to cis people and completely normative, and I was just warning everyone that such a mindset is asking for disappointment, that the greatest path to happiness is just correcting whatever it is that you personally are the most uncomfortable with, the thing that makes you the most personally dysphoric, and expecting that such surgery will improve that one area and that one area only, while having the self-acceptance to be okay with the parts of you that you can't change, and the views of narrow-minded un-accepting people which you can't ever completely eliminate, you can only improve in gradual steps.

I've seen several trans women (not the majority, mind you, just some,) have one procedure done only to either be dissatisfied because it wasn't enough, or shift their dysphoric thoughts onto another procedure almost immediately afterward, always looking for that perfection.

[Lady Smith]

I think the problem with expectations from surgery lie with the fact that removing dysphoria and being able to 'pass' are not necessarily the same thing.  Looking back on my transition my motivation was that I wanted to be properly myself and anything that could be done within reason to remove or reduce the unease I had over certain parts of my body or body processes was my aim.  To be honest I never did any of it, HRT, electrolysis, orchidectomy, to 'pass', I did it in order to make living in my own body bearable.  I've never given a fig about 'passing' because my aim was always to be myself first of all.

[LeaP]

Carrie, I have seen that happen as well and a friend and I have been actively talking about the problem. Her observation is that many hit the wall right after transition (suicides spike at this point also) - when it comes home that life has been 100% trans this and trans that.

For these, this is the line that divides the quest for identity from living, from being trans from being a woman. If you don't know what you are, you have no business transitioning.  This is what led to my comment about moving forward with life immediately on sorting out what you are and where you are headed.

Two things make people uncomfortable when it comes to the arguments of medical necessity, whether considered for SRS or FFS.  The first are the philosophical arguments (which are rooted in puritanical and religious-based cultural bias, frankly). This is where arguments like "other people live with things like this, why can't the trans person" come from.  There are also arguments of fairness, social utility, relative benefit, and more.  It's a morass.  The second is cost, coupled with the deep suspicion that someone is trying to pull something.

I'm not concerned with either one when it comes to FFS any more than I am with SRS.  Both are incredibly invasive and extreme from a number of perspectives.  Many start down the path, but few indeed complete it. Too many things conspire to disincent and stop those who don't really need them.

There may be some cause to be concerned for costs when it comes to facial surgery, but I think that could be resolved by appropriately limiting the procedures that fall into that category and assigning the costs of cosmetic procedures outside of that back to the patient, along with a pro rata portion of general surgery costs such as the hospital stay, mess, anesthesia, etc. That would eliminate those scamming their way under the flag of medical necessity to get something like a lip lift.  Not too many people are going to undergo having, say, their forehead dissected and put back together just to cover a portion of the costs for the cosmetic plastics they are having done at the same time. 

[Carrie Liz]

I just realized something, Lea, which I'm kind of embarrassed to realize that I didn't notice at first because I wasn't paying attention to your response, I was just getting defensive...

In my original post, only the opening paragraph was a response to you directly. I was responding to "I don't see why any trans woman wouldn't want both SRS AND FFS" with the simple answer "not all trans women want it."

The entire rest of the post was a response to the OP. I wasn't like trying to get into some big argument with you personally about whether FFS is worth it or what makes someone trans or not, or anything like that, again, that was all just directed at the OP as a response to "is there a procedure that yells you are female more than others?"

Sorry, didn't mean to engage a whole debate there. I wasn't sure where the heck you were getting the engagement about the validity of people's identity thing from my last paragraph... because that paragraph wasn't in any way meant to be related to people's identities being valid or not, or having anything to do with why a trans person would or wouldn't want surgery in the first place. It was just a response to the OP, and I was basically saying "no single surgery will remove your concerns on its own, it's best to not expect miracles and be realistic about what each thing will change."

Sorry if there was confusion there... again, I was addressing two different questions in my original reply.

[OCAnne]

Hello everyone, OCAnne here...again.

I have been in the woodwork a couple years.  Read a lot of post on this site and at times felt I could offer input.  Well here I am offering input.  The title of this topic is 'Which corrective feminizing surgery would you go for first?'  It's 'first' not last.  We all have to start somewhere and nothing screams female more to me than vagina.

My gender dysphoria has always been centered around my crotch.  Looks and feels wrong and I can't engage in vaginal intercourse. A straight man wants somewhere to put it.  Men expect to find a vagina on a woman.  Gets very awkward I am sure when they find a penis instead.

  I can accept being ugly but not having a vagina breaks me.  Thankfully it can be corrected and it tops my list.  I have asked surgeons, therapist, friends and haters whether I could use FFS.  All said no.  Can I use work, absolutely yes.  Most cis-women can also find issues that require correction.  Pretty sure not having a vagina is ever one of them.  That's reserved for us pre-op transsexual women.

Call it what it is 'intensely transsexual' but what's the point passing when you can't pass as born, naked!  Sure not everyone is going to see it but you and maybe your lovers know it's there.  I frequently feel like a phony female because I have a penis instead.

Makes me wonder when some trans. women claim they despise their wrong genitals but choose to keep them.

Some of us were born ready to undergo SRS other may with time decide its time.

  In less than 10 days the penis comes off (the outside) and becomes my vagina.  Don't care if I am numb as long as it's gone.  Corrective Feminizing Surgery complete!  Ugh, well, mmm, maybe not.

[mmmmm]

Call it what it is 'intensely transsexual' but what's the point passing when you can't pass as born, naked!  Sure not everyone is going to see it but you and maybe your lovers know it's there. 

... but what's the point of passing when you can't pass without the make-up, with messed-up hair or without a wig... that's basically every morning, shure not everyone is going to see you, but you will, mirror will be there on the wall. And maybe your lovers will see you too.
(This is meant hypothetically, and not by any means to offend anybody).

[LeaP]

No worries, Carrie.  Forum dynamics get confusing, with people responding to bits and pieces all over the place.  I probably wasn't clear on who I was responding to anyway. 

As for the defensiveness, forget it.  I tend to revert to a dry, analytical, and logical writing style unless I'm literally putting effort in to lighten up.  I've never been quite sure why, but it gets that reaction at times.  Truthfully, I'm focused on the discussion points and the flow back and forth.  None of us exactly enjoy being countered with a strongly argued position anyway.  I do like being surprised with a point of view I've never considered, but I can get defensive if something to which I'm attached goes under the microscope, too.  There are many reasons for this, I suppose, including social embarrassment.  It's just human nature.  It takes a lot to admit you weren't paying sufficient attention, and I very much appreciate your saying that.  It also encourages others (including me) to do likewise. 

Finally, without going back and deconstructing the post you cited, let me just say that I like to occasionally riff someone's remarks off into new directions.  I'm usually careful to avoid suggesting that I'm reading things into their comments.  If the new sub-topic helps the OP topic, fine, else I'll spin it off when appropriate, as I did with the FFS/Gender Confirmation topic.

But please do debate!  (positive sense)   Rigor is good!  Challenge is good! 

[Jenna Marie]

Personally, the only surgery I wanted was GRS, and not because I feel it made me "more feminine" but because I needed my body to be the right shape. (That said, I do occasionally - such as in public bathrooms or locker rooms - find it reassuring to know that anyone who threw open the door now would not recoil in shock. [This actually happened to my wife, where some kid flung open the changing room curtain and the whole room saw her naked, so I was SO paranoid about that!]) I don't want FFS for the simple reason that I can go out in jeans and a T-shirt with messy hair and no makeup and be taken for an average middle-aged woman, which is all I ever wanted. In fact, I just spent this past week biking around DC in men's shorts and a baseball cap and had no problems, and that's always been my goal - to be able to live comfortably as a low-maintenance sort of woman, but most importantly, to get on with having my *life* instead of worrying about being trans.

Anyway, that's why I'd choose only the one surgery I did. Not everyone has the same needs, and I'll be first in line to say that a woman with different needs from mine deserves to fulfill her dreams every bit as much. I don't think I can say which is the most feminizing surgery for Jane Doe because it's all so individual.

[AnonyMs]

I don't have a simple answer to this one. It depends.

Currently I'm presenting male and will continue to do so for at least a while, so it would be SRS first and only (while still presenting male). It would at least make me happy.

If I were to present female I'd defiantly be looking at electrolysis/FFS first - I've tried it and I'm very uncomfortable the way I present as female. Perhaps part of its its simply lack of practice, but still. SRS and BA would follow pretty shortly after though.

Voice last, as I understand that it needs a lot of practice before making surgery worthwhile. Assuming I needed it.

[PennyW]

Long time lurker here.

What would I go for? FFS for sure, but for everyone it's individual.

What don't I like about myself presently? I feel an overwhelming need to fit into a feminine social role. The genital configuration doesn't really enter into it for me. I can't see how I can fit that role while being "obviously trans", so the solution is FFS.

[katrinaw]

Split, vote for Electro first as its a pain!

Then it gets difficult, FFS because of age, but likewise Tracheal shave, VFS are also all a level #2, GRS is a third..

Very mind testing, probably it will fall into place once $$ start coming back in

L Katy

[Erica_Y]

For myself I did not consider hair removal as the first procedure as it can be done quite undercover in guy mode.

I did full FFS first, BA next and now I am looking forward to SRS next in about a year. I chose Other as full FFS was not an option. I figured 100% of the world sees my face and about .000000000000000001 % sees the bottom so I put FFS ahead of the rest

To do it over I would do it exactly that way in the same order again as it has really worked well for me on all levels.

All the best in what ever order you and others choose!

[LeaP]

Electro?  Well, ok ... if that's included, it's actually what I DID do first.  But it's not surgery (thread question).

[katrinaw]

For myself I did not consider hair removal as the first procedure as it can be done quite undercover in guy mode.

I did full FFS first, BA next and now I am looking forward to SRS next in about a year. I chose Other as full FFS was not an option. I figured 100% of the world sees my face and about .000000000000000001 % sees the bottom so I put FFS ahead of the rest

To do it over I would do it exactly that way in the same order again as it has really worked well for me on all levels.

All the best in what ever order you and others choose!

That's true, but is still a cost, I agree for surgical FFS, or VFS..... err
But in reality FFS could be done on the cusp of guy mode to girl mode, but Voice and Trachea are also give away's obviously the latter being projection size... Voice is tough, early into my adulthood I could still sing in Soprano, Alto being my norm... but as age and no more voice practicing that died...

Actually, probably Voice (VFS) would be before FFS.

Thanks Erica you helped me decide planning order - Yay..
xx

L Katy

[judithlynn]

I chose other, because luckily after 2 years on HRT I now pass pretty much 100%. Occasionally things give me away, but I have no Adams apple, very small feet and hands. I now have 44B cup breasts and my waist has started to reappear and I have lost a lot of upper body weight and  I have added 2"to my bottom. I also have skinny arms.

I have had a lot of Laser/Electrolysis already.

For me the number 1 and 2 feminization procedures are:
1. Lipo to the waist, back & tummy and fat grafting to the hips and bottom like Calicarly and Jennygirl. (I would like to have more of an hour glass shape)
2. Breast Augmentation as I would love to have fuller breasts - my ideal size would be 44DD.

[Erica_Y]

Thanks Erica you helped me decide planning order - Yay..

Awesome!!  I am glad I could help

[Blush]

Thanks everyone for all the votes so far, very interesting! I think personally I'll be exploring a brow ridge reduction and forehead smoothing since my SRS is done.

[Joi]

I have already had breast augmentation surgery so I guess for me the question is: What procedure would I have 2nd.
I plan to have GRS in early 2016.  Initially, I thought about having "brow bossing" at the same time, but after due consideration and the advice from a medical professional, I have decided to limit myself to GRS next. The advice I received was that due to my age, my recovery was likely to be more stressful than if I was in my 20's or 30's.  Make's sense to fully recover from the "big one" and tackle the fine tuning later.

[innainka]

all things external are how you are being seen. The GRS is quite rightfully so a personal measure which has a tremendous impact on self but merely zero impact on the "how they see you its how they paint you"
FFS as a procedure is the necessary evil so to speak for anyone starting transition in their twenties and after. However, even though face may spell a blissful gender mark, the rest is in the detail of poise, speech, bodybuilt, etc...

[jess_oz]

I could run of a list based on those in the pole above and finish it with "in a perfect world" but being realistic and based on real world current circumstances the most important and vital procedure for me would have to be an "orchi", put bluntly, castration.

The mental distress that the poison these things produce and release into my body is far to overwhelming. Sure, Spiro prevents this now but if I run out of med's even just for a little while, I start feeling incredibly ill when they start producing T again.

To never have to experience that again would be bliss.

Then suddenly out of the blue, I will win Lotto and have

VFS
FFS
GRS

All in the same week if possible