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One year post op on Yeson and unhappy

Started by Aphaea, May 24, 2015, 12:10:34 AM

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Aphaea

Virtually every thread on this forum seems to be a positive Yeson experience. It has been a year since my surgery. As for statistics I am 35 years old, 152 pounds, and 5'9".

My base bitch as measured at Yeson was 135hz and always considered my voice to be rather deep. I attempted to do voice training prior to surgery but could never get my resonance right. Post op my voice was supposed to be around 205hz but even still my normal talking voice was actually around 165hz and has steadily dropped down to 140hz. Luckily, my voice wasn't destroyed but I am no better off having had the surgery.

At the time of my surgery I toured Seoul with two other trans women that had VFS done as well. Having talked with both in the past week, they report the same problem. One had a perfectly feminine voice prior to surgery, the other more akin to mine.

While there is much hype on this forum in regards to Yeson, I am somewhat at a loss as to what to do to improve my voice. I feel that I may need to consult an ENT to get a recording of my vocal cords and begin consulting a speech therapist. Does anyone have other suggestions?
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Ms Grace

Sorry you are having that experience. I haven't had VFS so don't have anything I can offer as help but just wanted to give some moral support, hope you find a solution.
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
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thegreenrabbit

Really good of you to express an honest view about your Yeson experience.
We usually only hear the sunshine stories, and often really have to dig for a more balanced picture.

Have you had speech therapy after Yeson?  Or did you just follow their exercises?
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Lady_Oracle

Can't comment about vocal surgery but I trained myself and I have plenty of resonance. It took me about 3 years for it to be consistent enough to the point where I could use my voice all day without it straining and dying on me. It's just a matter of staying active with training, strengthening your voice box slowly and steadily. Sorry you're going through this though, hugs!
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Aphaea

I have never had professional voice training. I followed the exercise but they have always felt to be a futile experience. I plan to email Jessie to see if she can offer any suggestions.
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thegreenrabbit

Quote from: Aphaea on May 24, 2015, 12:25:05 PM
I have never had professional voice training. I followed the exercise but they have always felt to be a futile experience. I plan to email Jessie to see if she can offer any suggestions.
That may be where the problem is. With such a delicate VFS,  I cannot understand why the crucial post op exercises seem to be left as a form of patient DIY.  I intend to start weekly voice therapy again for at least the next 3 months.
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Aphaea

At the post op check up they give you a session with a voice therapist where she goes over the exercises that you are supposed to do once you are allowed to start speaking which is more than a month after the surgery. The other problems are that the session is very rushed, you cannot practice it (since you just had surgery!), and they refused to allow me to record the session on my phone. You are sent a prerecorded video of their exercises but it feels so different than what I remembered at Yeson. The video is located here:


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thegreenrabbit

Quote from: Aphaea on May 24, 2015, 01:01:48 PM
At the post op check up they give you a session with a voice therapist where she goes over the exercises that you are supposed to do once you are allowed to start speaking which is more than a month after the surgery. The other problems are that the session is very rushed, you cannot practice it (since you just had surgery!), and they refused to allow me to record the session on my phone. You are sent a prerecorded video of their exercises but it feels so different than what I remembered at Yeson. The video is located here:
I can't see how you can just be told to start exercises a month after surgery. You are unable to know the state of your vocal cords without seeing an ENT and normally you would require a post op examination to determine if it's safe to proceed with exercises. That's what I ended up doing.
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Erica_Y

Aphaea  I am sorry to hear that your results are not what you expected or hoped for. Does he do revision or warranty type of work to maybe get things where they need to be for you?

In any case it took a lot of courage to post your experience and thank you for doing so. I have always sort of had this type of surgery as a lower priority to do thing someday and having broad feedback is important.

I hope you can get your situation sorted where you are happy with your voice - HUGS !!

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Laura_7

*hugs*

Some things that can be done fairly quickly are intonation and a bit more breathy or soft voice...

for more you could look here for example:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,189270.msg1684109.html#msg1684109


hugs
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anjaq

Hello Aphaea,

I am sorry you have that experience, but thanks for posting it. I dont like it if the forum gives the impression of being one-sided. I have a few thoughts on this and a few questions, maybe it can help.

Ok, so first a more general question - those two women you met in Korea - they also had VFS with Dr Kim, but were a year post op when you arrived there for the surgery? Did you meet them by chance, were they at the clinic for a revision, or what was the circumstances of your meeting? Have you been scared by their experiences, given you just were about to have that surgery? The one who had a feminine voice from training before the surgery - what was her expecience - did she have more trouble having it post op or was it easier for her to use it?

Next question: Have you checked your lowest possible not pre and post op. Does your voice break away when you use it now at 140 Hz? the background is this: My lowest note has increased from 85 Hz to about 120 Hz - I can speak at 140 Hz or even 130 Hz , but whenever I go low at the end of the sentences then, the voice just fails because it cannot go lower. If this is what is happening to you, you are using your voice at the very lowest end of its range.

Another question: What about your upper range, your transition to the head voice and your head voice in general? The Yeson exercises should train that transition zone - starting at a comfortable pitch and then go up to the G above th emiddle C which clearly is into the head voice zone. Was that easy for you, did you feel te voice break there, was it an issue for you? What was a comfortable pitch to start the Yeson exercises with (the mmmmiiiii one for example, or the lip trill)?

Is it easier to use higher pitches now for you? I found it is not so much that the pitch is forced up by the surgery so much as that it allows or enables to use higher pitches comfortably. Women use low pitches as well, but for a womans voice it is easier to use high pitches as well, so it has a bigger vocal range when speaking and this gives a higher average pitch. It can still be as low as 130 or 140 Hz in some sylabils, but then it shoots up to 260 or even in the head voice and then goes down to 200 again... Thats ok, as long as you dont get locked in at the very low end of it.

Ok, thats a truckload of questions so far, maybe you can answer a few of them?

My general advice without knowing the answers would be to go and see a speech therapist - ideally a gender specialist, but it can also be a regular speech therapist who just focusses on you using your voice in the range that is optimal and who knows how to train for a more vivid voice (you can , if you like, post pre and post op recordings here so we can maybe hear what issues might be present).

I think the Yeson instructions and exercises are not really enough. They are a bare minimum you get because they cannot give you regular checkups or prescribe voice therapy in Seoul ;) - Dr Kim told me I should start with my voice rehab therapy after 8 weeks and I get a prescription by my local ENT for it, she also does post op endoscopic video checkups  and I send them in to Dr Kim. Dr Kim also takes voice recordings via email and can analyze them for you and tell you what issues are possibly present.

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Teslagirl

Aphaea, I am truly sorry the surgery hasn't given you what you want and I do hope things improve with voice therapy.
I'm due to have surgery with Yeson in July, and I'm getting seriously worried as I've read about a few people now who aren't happy after the Yeson surgery. You mentioned meeting a woman who had a female voice before surgery, but you didn't say in so many words that she now has difficulty sounding female. Was that the case? Did the Yeson surgery take away her ability to sound female? If so I'm going to have to seriously rethink this surgery. I can't afford to start sounding male as a result of going to Yeson, as I'm a teacher. That would be a disaster for me.

Sarah.

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Aphaea

The two women in Korea had the surgery at the same time I did. We met via email through Jessie and toured Seoul together. The one with the feminine voice prior to surgery I do not have much knowledge about her voice aside that she isn't happy with it. The other I still talk to through Skype and believe her problem is primarily that she needs to work heavily on her resonance. I do not have information on her pitch.

Yes my voice does break at 140hz. A large part of my problem is that some days the voice is low and others it may be in an acceptable range. I feel that the various surgeries since Yeson may have impacted it despite informing the surgeon to use a 5.5 tube each time, but neither was my voice in an overly good state before the other surgeries.

I will answer the barrage of other questions at another time :)


To answer Tesla I do not feel the surgery hurt my voice, but neither do I feel it as beneficial as I had hoped. As with all surgeries there comes a risk. The woman I met that had a feminine voice prior to surgery had a feminine voice afterwards, but rather that she was not satisfied with her results a year after surgery. I have not heard her voice since as that is only what she has said through email.
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thegreenrabbit

Quote from: Teslagirl on May 26, 2015, 06:17:44 PM
Aphaea, I am truly sorry the surgery hasn't given you what you want and I do hope things improve with voice therapy.
I'm due to have surgery with Yeson in July, and I'm getting seriously worried as I've read about a few people now who aren't happy after the Yeson surgery. You mentioned meeting a woman who had a female voice before surgery, but you didn't say in so many words that she now has difficulty sounding female. Was that the case? Did the Yeson surgery take away her ability to sound female? If so I'm going to have to seriously rethink this surgery. I can't afford to start sounding male as a result of going to Yeson, as I'm a teacher. That would be a disaster for me.

Sarah.
I think with any VFS there is the risk of being worse off than when you went in. If ones voice is totally acceptable as is, then I for one would not have had VFS. You can minimize the risks through choice of surgeon and aftercare, but there will always be that risk. Basically it's a question of do the possible benefits outweigh the possible downfalls. I'm not scaremongering, just speaking from personal experience and from people whom I have a first hand accounts from.
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thegreenrabbit

Quote from: Aphaea on May 27, 2015, 01:06:21 AM

Yes my voice does break at 140hz. A large part of my problem is that some days the voice is low and others it may be in an acceptable range. I feel that the various surgeries since Yeson may have impacted it despite informing the surgeon to use a 5.5 tube each time, but neither was my voice in an overly good state before the other surgeries.

I also believe that the VFS is at risk with any future intubation,even though they do there utmost to be careful. I would plan any VFS as a final surgery, not withstanding emergency surgery. However I was told that after 6 months, the risk is greatly reduced.
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Jennygirl

I have been intubated 3x since VFS, the first was about 9 months post op. One time did leave me very hoarse afterward for about 4 days, scared the crap out of me. Luckily came back in full.

Sorry to hear that some are having less than optimal results. Have you done the exercises and actively been trying to retrain your brain to use the higher range? It's hard, your mind will play tricks on you and want you to go back down.

How long did you do the exercises for? I stopped around 9-10 months

I'm still noticing changes and it's been two years for me. Hang in there and try to stay positive, a good attitude will take you far when it comes to the necessary adaptation to your new vocal setup. It's a bit of a rollercoaster at times.
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katrinaw

Thanks for sharing Aphaea & all

Certainly considering VFS, and Yeson as my voice is very old and very content with what it knows, whilst I have been doing some VT (smartphone applets) but my voice breaks very quickly...

Having this info is certainly of benefit... thanks all, because mostly I've only heard great things, but off course any surgery always carries a risk, and of course we all react very differently to surgeries.

I guess its not a magic wand...

L Katy  :-*
Long term MTF in transition... HRT since ~ 2003...
Journey recommenced Sept 2015  :eusa_clap:... planning FT 2016  :eusa_pray:

Randomly changing 'Katy PIC's'

Live life, embrace life and love life xxx
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anjaq

Quote from: Aphaea on May 27, 2015, 01:06:21 AM
The two women in Korea had the surgery at the same time I did. We met via email through Jessie and toured Seoul together. The one with the feminine voice prior to surgery I do not have much knowledge about her voice aside that she isn't happy with it. The other I still talk to through Skype and believe her problem is primarily that she needs to work heavily on her resonance. I do not have information on her pitch.
Do you think they may be interested in joining this forum as well for help, information and sharing their results? There is also a Yeson Patient Facebook Group, in case they dont want to join a forum....

QuoteYes my voice does break at 140hz. A large part of my problem is that some days the voice is low and others it may be in an acceptable range.
Well if 140 Hz is really your lowest pitch and below that nothing comes out or maybe just some noises, then this is your lowest end of the pitch range. It makes not much sense then to use this as your speaking voice as it would be equivalent of you speaking below 100 Hz pre OP, if that was where your low end was at that time. Basically you would be overly relaxing your vocal muscles. This happens to me at times when I am really tired, but usually if I speak, some tension comes in and I am more heading to the 160 Hz range.
This would mean, that voice therapy can help - my speech therapist also has a voice that goes as low as 140 Hz and below that it starts to break, she basically seems to have my vocal range now. The key then is to retrain your brain to use a new comfortable pitch that is not at your new low end.


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seattlesarah

Array I just lost a massive post during editing!!

Long story short then, I am 4 months post op and am also incredibly disappointed to the point of depression, though I suspect the clonazepam and then withdrawal from the clonazepam has contributed to that (I had such bad side effects I had to write to Yeson to tell hem I couldn't keep taking it and hey put me on a course of massages and water drinking instead - I always feel like someone has their hands around my throat now that the Botox and clonazepam have worn off).

I had a perfectly passable voice before the op, and I still do now - but it's the exact same voice. I have had no noticeable useful benefit from the op. I have lost the bottom 4 pitches of my range, but I never used them anyway, and I have an easier to access falsetto - that still sounds male. These are changes I can't get any benefit from. The ceiling on my head voice remains where it was.

What I wanted from the op was a higher fundamental frequency to my speaking voice and a higher ceiling on my chest voice in order to be able to express excitement and happiness by going up high in pitch like most women can. I didn't get either. I lost the ability to use my untrained pre-transition voice, and that's really all.

I can't see my pitch rising any more because it's been staying just where it was when I started talking at 1.5 months, despite exercises and voice therapists.
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anjaq

Hi Sarah

I am sorry you also are disappointed.

The clonazepam is known to have some bad side effects as a possibility, which is why Dr Kim gave me an alternative medication when I mentioned to him I have a history of depression. If you like, I can look up the name of that in english and maybe you can get a prescription at your ENT?


Quote from: seattlesarah on May 31, 2015, 10:58:57 PM
I had a perfectly passable voice before the op, and I still do now - but it's the exact same voice. I have had no noticeable useful benefit from the op. I have lost the bottom 4 pitches of my range, but I never used them anyway, and I have an easier to access falsetto - that still sounds male. These are changes I can't get any benefit from. The ceiling on my head voice remains where it was.

What should happen is that if you had to use some concentration and muscle power to get your voice into the passable range pre-op, it should now come naturally after the surgery - did that happen for you? You cannot drop into a male range anymore, do you perceive that as a benefit or did that never happen to you anyways?

The transition to head voice is something that cannot be changed with surgery and honestly it seems to be similar in male and female voices anyways. In female voices the "head voice" is supplemented by a "middle" voice which is more likely the part you would use in the upper speech range. My voice therapist has the same transition points as I have (pre and post VFS), but the key is to go over that transition point and actually use the head (or "middle") voice for some expressions, intonations - not so speak full sentences in it, but the head/middle voice is part of the female speaking pattern.... I am not sure why it sounds male for you if you have a passable female voice below that point - which would indicate you are using resonance the right way in the chest voice - does this not work in the head/middle voice?

QuoteWhat I wanted from the op was a higher fundamental frequency to my speaking voice and a higher ceiling on my chest voice in order to be able to express excitement and happiness by going up high in pitch like most women can. I didn't get either. I lost the ability to use my untrained pre-transition voice, and that's really all.
To be honest - the idea of the surgery was not really to add more pitch to your already trained female voice but to make that trained voice your natural voice. I am sure if you want, you can with more ease use even higher pitches now than before, though. Can you tell us what your voice parameters were? Pre OP untrained pitch, pre Op trained pitch, post op relaxed pitch, your ideal wish-pitch?

Regarding the "expressing excitement and happiness" - as I mentioned before, this happens actually partially in the head and middle voice for other women too. The focus there should be on training the head/middle voice and the transition into head voice, which is actually part of the goal of the Yeson post op exercises, I believe. They start at the middle C which is in the middle voice range and already close to head voice and then go up to the G above that which is well into head voice. What I found however is that it is far easier than before the surgery to really use the middle voice and access it, the transition is not as rough anymore - so I am well able to use part of my head and middle voice in daily expressions like laughing or the classical "oh my god!" shouting :P ;)

Again, I am sorry you were disappointed, I think your expectation to increase the transition from chest to head voice was unrealistic, but the fundamental frequency should be higher and the higher pitches should be easier accessible now.

P.S.: http://www.singwise.com/cgi-bin/main.pl?section=articles&doc=UnderstandingVocalRangeRegistersAndType gives a good view on different registers, I believe.

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