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I interrupted Obama because we need to be heard

Started by suzifrommd, June 25, 2015, 04:20:47 PM

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suzifrommd

I interrupted Obama because we need to be heard

June 25, 2015 at 11:20 am EDT | by Jennicet Gutierrez

https://www.washingtonblade.com/2015/06/25/exclusive-i-interrupted-obama-because-we-need-to-be-heard/

For the immigrant LGBTQ community progress has not been fully realized because of the continuous discrimination and violence we face in our daily lives.

I was fortunate to be invited to the White House to listen to President Obama's speech recognizing the LGBTQ community and the progress being made. But while he spoke of 'trans women of color being targeted,' his administration holds LGBTQ and trans immigrants in detention. I spoke out because our issues and struggles can no longer be ignored.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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iKate

I'm probably going to offend people with this, but I don't like the LGBT community being used as human shields in front of illegal aliens. People who have genuine concerns as LGBT refugees should be accommodated but at the same time Mexico is a large trading partner so why aren't we pushing them to reform their own country?

As for detention, sure. Give the detainees the dignity they need. Don't place trans women with male detainees, for example.
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orangeskipper

I'm down with iKate on this one. There are times when civil disobedience is appropriate and often times necessary and desirable.

What happened at this event was, in my opinion, tactless and in poor taste.
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amber roskamp

Thank you suzi for posting this. I have been looking for articles on this sight about this all day...

kate
If you read about how trans women are treated at these detention centers you would probably change your mind. I believe she was justified in speaking out at this event, especially since she survived one of these detention centers herself. I was sickened to see the power dynamics in the video. Undocumented trans women cries for help, and the privileged mostly white gay men shut her down and cheer when an ally silences her. This is the same thing that happens to any lgbt immigrant in the united states. they get silenced and ignored.


She is an extremely brave women for risking deportation and public opinion by speaking on behalf of her sisters who are being detained and possible deported to a hostile environment. now mainstream lgbt groups cannot ignore her and other people like her any longer. She has brought nation wide attention to her cause!

here is another article that shows the in humane treatment that trans women have to face in these detention centers. please read this before you criticize my opinion.

http://transgenderlawcenter.org/archives/11347?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork

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Colleen M

I sorted out my opinion on this a few years ago when Joe Wilson interrupted Obama ("You lie!").  I believe the central point is that you don't interrupt a speaking POTUS. 
When in doubt, ignore the moral judgments of anybody who engages in cannibalism.
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orangeskipper

If someone would have told me twenty years ago that a President of the United States of America would stand in front of our nation, and the entire world, and loudly and eloquently advocate for the rights of transgender Americans in the middle of his State of the Union speech, I would have declared them a liar.

This man did that early in 2015. He not only acknowledged that we exist, but he advocated for the dignified treatment of our community. I've looked back through many presidential speeches, and as far as I can tell, Barack Obama was the first and only one to do this. It is not appropriate to then hurl insult in the President's face, as was done here.

Imagine Ronald Reagan advocating for transgender rights in 1981, when he couldn't even stand up for his closest friends and demand action and funding for HIV/AIDS research.

I can empathize with this person, but it is beyond disrespectful to attempt to shout this man down, especially as a guest. Guess how soon trans activists will be invited to a State Dinner or other event?

iKate has it right. Here we were celebrating LGBT progress, and we nearly took a victory and turned it into a defeat.

My ex is a woman of color, from another country, and we navigated the immigration mess. She entered the United States legally.
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orangeskipper

I believe that we have an important and civil discussion here. I appreciate and respect Amber's view, and all the others on this topic.

I am especially appreciative of the the Transgender Law Center, referenced here by Amber. We all want and deserve respect and dignified treatment. We do need immigration reform, and our people should not have to suffer as the person at this event brought light to.

All are valid points here, and worth sharing and discussing. I would suspect that this person's intent was to draw attention to the issue, and get people talking about it.
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amber roskamp

Quote from: Colleen M on June 26, 2015, 07:44:28 PM
I sorted out my opinion on this a few years ago when Joe Wilson interrupted Obama ("You lie!").  I believe the central point is that you don't interrupt a speaking POTUS.

I disagree. the president is just a man. A man with more authority then anyone in this country. he needed to be brought down a notch or two when his authority is what is causing trans women seeking refuge to be raped and beaten.

Quote from: orangeskipper on June 26, 2015, 08:57:00 PM
I believe that we have an important and civil discussion here. I appreciate and respect Amber's view, and all the others on this topic.

I am especially appreciative of the the Transgender Law Center, referenced here by Amber. We all want and deserve respect and dignified treatment. We do need immigration reform, and our people should not have to suffer as the person at this event brought light to.

All are valid points here, and worth sharing and discussing. I would suspect that this person's intent was to draw attention to the issue, and get people talking about it.

I agree, and I think we need to move the focus of this discussion away from her methods and more towards the difficulties that lgbt immigrants face.
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Asche

Quote from: Colleen M on June 26, 2015, 07:44:28 PM
I believe the central point is that you don't interrupt a speaking POTUS.
Why not?

Why is politeness only required when the person you're dealing with has the power and you don't?  Obama and the people he commands can treat people like her with all the brutality they want, but his victims have to be polite?

This reminds me of how, back in the 1950's and 1960's, African-Americans were told they should obey the (racist) laws and be polite and wait.  And if a restaurant tells you they don't serve your kind, you just don't go in and sit down anyway.  And if the bus driver says you have to get up and move to the back, you just don't refuse.  That's not polite.  Act within the system, they were told (the same system that forbade them to vote, and that beat and imprisoned them if they spoke up.)

Acting polite and going through channels has never gotten an oppressed group anywhere.
"...  I think I'm great just the way I am, and so are you." -- Jazz Jennings



CPTSD
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amber roskamp

Quote from: Asche on June 27, 2015, 08:20:22 AM
Why not?

Why is politeness only required when the person you're dealing with has the power and you don't?  Obama and the people he commands can treat people like her with all the brutality they want, but his victims have to be polite?

This reminds me of how, back in the 1950's and 1960's, African-Americans were told they should obey the (racist) laws and be polite and wait.  And if a restaurant tells you they don't serve your kind, you just don't go in and sit down anyway.  And if the bus driver says you have to get up and move to the back, you just don't refuse.  That's not polite.  Act within the system, they were told (the same system that forbade them to vote, and that beat and imprisoned them if they spoke up.)

Acting polite and going through channels has never gotten an oppressed group anywhere.

Thank you.
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Colleen M

Quote from: Asche on June 27, 2015, 08:20:22 AM
Why not?

Why is politeness only required when the person you're dealing with has the power and you don't?  Obama and the people he commands can treat people like her with all the brutality they want, but his victims have to be polite?

This reminds me of how, back in the 1950's and 1960's, African-Americans were told they should obey the (racist) laws and be polite and wait.  And if a restaurant tells you they don't serve your kind, you just don't go in and sit down anyway.  And if the bus driver says you have to get up and move to the back, you just don't refuse.  That's not polite.  Act within the system, they were told (the same system that forbade them to vote, and that beat and imprisoned them if they spoke up.)

Acting polite and going through channels has never gotten an oppressed group anywhere.

Civil rights is just such a reach here.  We've got somebody who stood up like a crazy person and screamed at a speaking POTUS.  That's not some hypothetical experimental scenario which has never been tried before.  Joe Wilson already did it, he even did it with the same POTUS, and we know how it ends because some jerk with an R after his name proved it in glowing neon letters a hundred feet tall.  We don't need to reach all the way to racism for the comparison in any way, shape, or form.  We've already been down this road when Joe Wilson made Dick Cheney (!) look decent, polite, and courteous.  It's bad form, turns people off, and makes you more enemies than friends.   

Remember, OTOH, when Scalia was caught on video mouthing "Not true" after Obama invited the SCOTUS into a haranguing over Citizens United?  Obama caught more grief for that than Scalia did because Scalia saying something under his breath was clearly more decent than Obama trying to publicly embarrass SCOTUS. 

There's a place for attack dogs and a place for civilized persuasion.  Republicans got mileage out of both Ronald Reagan and Dick Cheney.  Democrats got mileage out of both Bill Clinton and Chuck Shumer.  If you insist on the civil rights comparison, shall we talk about MLK or W.E.B. DuBois? 

I'm not saying there's no place for being uncouth, but you've got to know the time and place.  Marines don't assault embassy balls because it doesn't win them or us any friends.         
When in doubt, ignore the moral judgments of anybody who engages in cannibalism.
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amber roskamp

Quote from: Colleen M on June 27, 2015, 10:51:58 AM
Civil rights is just such a reach here.  We've got somebody who stood up like a crazy person and screamed at a speaking POTUS.  That's not some hypothetical experimental scenario which has never been tried before.  Joe Wilson already did it, he even did it with the same POTUS, and we know how it ends because some jerk with an R after his name proved it in glowing neon letters a hundred feet tall.  We don't need to reach all the way to racism for the comparison in any way, shape, or form.  We've already been down this road when Joe Wilson made Dick Cheney (!) look decent, polite, and courteous.  It's bad form, turns people off, and makes you more enemies than friends.   

Remember, OTOH, when Scalia was caught on video mouthing "Not true" after Obama invited the SCOTUS into a haranguing over Citizens United?  Obama caught more grief for that than Scalia did because Scalia saying something under his breath was clearly more decent than Obama trying to publicly embarrass SCOTUS. 

There's a place for attack dogs and a place for civilized persuasion.  Republicans got mileage out of both Ronald Reagan and Dick Cheney.  Democrats got mileage out of both Bill Clinton and Chuck Shumer.  If you insist on the civil rights comparison, shall we talk about MLK or W.E.B. DuBois? 

I'm not saying there's no place for being uncouth, but you've got to know the time and place.  Marines don't assault embassy balls because it doesn't win them or us any friends.       

The power dynamics of both of those situations are completely different. Joe Wilson was a representative and a cis white man. He had access to way more resources then jennect. She has absolutely no reason to apologize for her actions as they were justified by her cause and the fact that every one even the lgbtq+ community has ignored people like her for years. Also Joe Wilson straight up attacked Obama's integrity without raising any points in his favor. So please stop comparing these two it is a completely different situation (a cocktail party party vs a legislative session) with completely different circumstances surrounding the situation.
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Colleen M

I flatly refuse to grant the proposition that a relatively weak social position in any way removes the need for common courtesy either as a social standard or as a key component of a persuasive argument.  It is both uncivilized and counter-productive.  We will have to agree to disagree on this as I find her behavior inexcusable.       

As far as the problem with the proposition that the civil rights movement provides encouraging precedent for the idea that screaming like a madwoman is helpful, Frederick Douglass changed more minds by proving that a black man could be an educated, intelligent, eloquent, civilized human being than any number of people screaming could ever have hoped for.  Booker T. Washington did more to turn generations of black children into educated, intelligent, eloquent, civilized adults than any number of people screaming at the President.  Rosa Parks was one of many to be arrested, but she did it building on a century of reasonable, civil discourse, and she did it with a quiet dignity Gutierrez has explicitly rejected.  Granted, Gutierrez is not the Angela Davis or John Brown of the comparison, but she's clearly gone well out of her way to not mimic the celebrated heroes of the civil rights movement.  She has created a fair bit of celebrity, though.  I wonder how long until the book deal occurs?   

With MLK on the brain as somebody who did things very differently from Gutierrez, keep in mind that he was named for a guy who broke in half arguably the most powerful church the world will ever see without interrupting the Pope for a screaming session.  Five hundred years later we know who he is because of the quiet dignity of "Here I stand.  I can do no other." Admittedly, Luther reserved his ranting for the Jews, who he clearly had outgunned.  When dealing with power he was unfailingly polite, and it worked.  While it's true that people took up arms in his cause, and that their motives were varied, the fact is that Luther kept his cool in a way that we already know Gutierrez either can't or won't, and that's what got him taken seriously enough to make the changes he wanted.  I really can't think of a struggle which overall doesn't actively destroy the idea that less power translates into less need to at least try to look like a grown-up.   

Joe Wilson is the perfect comparison because a straight white male got labeled an idiot for screaming at the POTUS like a lunatic.  Even people who agreed with his sentiment crapped all over him for the way he expressed it.  My understanding is that we have a long list of stupid things straight white men can do and get away with *NOT* being called idiots for doing, and a very short list of things which go the other way.  I'm not really inclined to agree that something stupid somehow becomes a better idea when society affords you less benefit of the doubt.         

Long story short, I wish Gutierrez was championing a cause I not only was not associated with to any degree whatsoever, but one that I actively wanted to fail.           
When in doubt, ignore the moral judgments of anybody who engages in cannibalism.
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amber roskamp

#13
Response To ICE New Memo On Processing Trans Detainees

June 29, 2015

http://www.notonemoredeportation.com/2015/06/29/response-to-ice-new-memo-on-processing-trans-detainees/

Less than one week after Jennicet Gutierrez courageously interrupted the White House Pride reception to demand that President Obama end the detention and abuse of transgender immigrant women, the administration made public a new memo on the topic.

===================
Well despite the fact that you thought her ways were stupid and some other people did too, this happened today! She was rash and most definitely reckless, but it seems like there have been some good results. Check it out
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rachel89

I'm not sure if the a White House cocktail party for the LGBT community was the best place to start, but given the situation with undocumented trans women, it was justifiable. I think a better way to this is to raise awareness among the LGBT  community, the legal community, prison reform activists, and activists for undocumented workers and get input from them and learn from their experiences first. Then go for the throat of the political establishment and the hearts of the American people. I'm kind of thinking of something kind of like ACT UP to deal with with issues like this. As a community we should do what is most effective to solve these problems, although we don't always know what the most effective way is, so we experiment with different tactics, and some of them fail. Interrupting the POTUS may have been a failed tactic, but she doesn't deserve any condemnation for her actions. Trans* Lives>Being Polite


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amber roskamp

Quote from: rachel89 on June 30, 2015, 12:20:33 AM
I'm not sure if the a White House cocktail party for the LGBT community was the best place to start, but given the situation with undocumented trans women, it was justifiable. I think a better way to this is to raise awareness among the LGBT  community, the legal community, prison reform activists, and activists for undocumented workers and get input from them and learn from their experiences first. Then go for the throat of the political establishment and the hearts of the American people. I'm kind of thinking of something kind of like ACT UP to deal with with issues like this. As a community we should do what is most effective to solve these problems, although we don't always know what the most effective way is, so we experiment with different tactics, and some of them fail. Interrupting the POTUS may have been a failed tactic, but she doesn't deserve any condemnation for her actions. Trans* Lives>Being Polite

Well she had been advocating for a long time before that. That is why she got invited to the party. But regardless many if not most national lgbt groups ignored her.

Also her ways were very effective it seems, as the detention centers have already changed their policy....
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rachel89

I didn't realize she had done a lot of work before and that the detention centers were already starting to make changes. Her actons make more sense in this context.


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