Losing muscle and body size

[New2Brooke65]

I am a former collegiate football player.  In college I bulked up to 225 lbs, 52 inches at the shoulder, 42-44 inches in the chest, 32 inches at the male waist, 28 inches in the thighs, squatted 550 lbs, benched 300 lbs.  Right after college I dropped down to a fit 185-195 lbs range (15% fat range), where I remained right up until a couple years ago I reawakened to the fact that I was transgender.  I consistently worked out most of my adult life and, to a lesser extent, ran for fitness (and the occasional 10K).  I am now a fit, relatively lean 50 year old MTF in transition.  Even before hormones I began to try to lose weight by switching my exercise regime from male-ish to female-ish (March 2014).  Basically, I switched from a relatively lower number reps with heavier weights to a higher number of reps with lower weights.  My exercise routine now includes circuit training 2x/week, stair climber (15 mins) and running (20 mins) 4x/week, and yoga 1x/week.  I started estrogen injections four months ago, and it crashed my testosterone levels toward the low end of female (two blood panels - one at 13 and the other at 31).  My buttocks  (41 inches vs. 39) and hips (41 inches vs. 39) seem to have expanded by about 2 inches over the period, which is great.  But my chest (41 inches), bust (42.5 inches), rib cage (39 inches), female waist (35 inches), and thighs (24 inches) have remained the same.  My weight has varied from 182-189 during the period under injections, with no particularly obvious trend going down or otherwise.  I have been living full time since August last year.  I just finished my first really major clearing of facial hair - after 6 months' intensive laser and electrolysis - such that my facial skin shows no hair or a smidge of vellus hair and is pretty smooth.  My eyebrows look pretty good.  I haven't yet had FFS, but plan to do so Q1 2016.  I'm using my femme voice out and about.  I think I powder my face and apply lip coverage pretty well.  OK, getting to the point, I'm still greeted as sir.  I think the tell is my body rather than my face.  So, I'm terribly concerned that I may never get my body to shrink to pretty femme dimensions, even if I ultimately get to the point where I pass.  (Sorry, maybe I have no right to be vain at age 50, but I cannot help it.)  In any case, my internist / endocrinologist has indicated that I need to lower both my total calories intake to a sustained but liveable deficit and my protein intake without triggering a catabolistic atrophy.  And/or just outright stop working out - even my femme exercise program.  I have had a hell of a time trying to adhere to a portion control program.  For some reason, it's easier during the week than over the weekend.  And I desperately don't want to give up my circuit training.  I would like to seek anyone's advice who has had to slough off muscle, who has not had a problem with fat reduction, and who has done so at my age approximately.  Is there a proven path?  If it's portion control, please please please tell me how I can discipline myself to not only get there but also to maintain it for the rest of my life.

[sparrow]

Sorry, maybe I have no right to be vain at age 50, but I cannot help it.

Honey, you have every right to be vain at any age.  My grandma was vain on her deathbead at 89 years old.  She'd be horrified to read that, of course: she claimed to be 59 to attract her 70 year-old boyfriend. 

As for your question... I'm kinda in the same boat.  Really wishing I could drop the muscle mass in my arms & legs.  I've heard that stretching is good, but beyond that... I can't help on the portion control.  I can't get to sleep if I'm hungry. :/

[Ms Grace]

Hey Brooke

Welcome to Susan's    Great to have you here - looking forward to seeing you around the forum.

I think the trick is that time will eventually deal with that, but it is a case of years rather than months. Most of us don't have the skeletal structure for a petite female form anyway.

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[warlockmaker]

It always good to describe our former persona physical life style and build. I was a world class triathlete and represented my country at the Ironman world Championships, I am also and avid surfer. Plus alot of other sports. Doing alot of sports is a male thing, and boasting about it also, so I will refrain. So after 2+ years of HRT I can say that I kept a daily exerciase program which is a combination of strength and flexibility and I do not use weights. It part Yoga, part Pilates and I can honestly say that you can do all the exercise but when you have lost the T muscle building bloc it all goes. You do develop female type muscles. I had big lats and pecs from swimming competitivly and with the HRT I thought I would have B cup breasts but the pec muscles just dissolved and I have a plain A. This also applies to my lats, biceps. HRT will over time give you female muscle and strength thats why you can compete as a female in the Olympics after 2 years oh HRT and a SRS. Just some measurements after 2 years and 3 months on HRT. Pre HRT neck 15 1/2 ins, chest 39, weight 149, height 5ft 7ins. Post HRT neck 14ins, chest 35, weight 135 lbs.

[Cynobyte]

Try chemo for a year, it worked for me:)
But on a serious note, imagine dropping below your normal weight for a while, then ti go up to a healthy weight..  im talking about gastric bypass.  I dont meet weight requirements, but for health issues, they want to try it on me (diabetic, fibrosis, other immune issues)  dropping 1/3 of my weight will make life easier for me (95 lbs)  this will put me at around 165.  Besides my health issues, this will also help the dysphoria.  Im pushing it since I have been gaining the past couple years and want to make sure I dont end up w too much saggy skin...

Back to your question, one year during my 20s, I was a weightlifter like yourself.  I looked in the mirror one day a realized I was muscular, bur not really defined..  I changed my routine and did cardio like you are suggesting, but 7 days a week.  I lost 65 lbs in 40 days (yes thats right), which I sadly admit was alot of muscle, but had abs of a god (a little more loss with estrogen, I could have had a great fem body).  But loosing this much weight this fast, I lost my chest and thighs.  I want to loose the weight again, but hard todo with my new issues, so the bypass is my only hope..  if not, I hope at least to get off the insulin up to 5x a day!  But with a bypass, you could maintain it too..  hope this tidbit helps:)

[Fashionite]

Hi Brooke, this is a difficult place to be, as I know all too well. I was a junior national male gymnast before my transition. After being forced to quit because of injuries, I took up competitive tennis to stay active. Anyways, while I don't have any pre measurements, I do know that I was wanting to lose some muscle mass as well, as I was very uncomfortable with the masculine bulkiness. All that being said, the doctor you are seeing is right, you really have to stop anything that has to do with weights and eat less. You're also very early on your hormones, so it is going to take some time to break things down. Don't get worried since you are still very early, I am on my fourth year of hormones, and only within the last year did people say notice that I had gotten a lot thinner. I was quick to disagree because I knew for a fact that I have more fat than I every had in my life. That's when it clicked that I had finally lost a lot of that muscle mass so my body was getting smaller. So don't fret, just let the hormones do their work. You've put up the good fight thus far through life, there is no reason why you cant wait a little longer to get where you want to be. As for myself, and how I lost it, I wouldn't suggest you do that same. I literally let them atrophy, as I was having a very difficult time adjusting to life in some ways, so I spent a lot of time at home not moving much. Stay active and keep that body going with aerobics, you are already on the right path. 

[katrinaw]

Welcome to Susan's Brooke

I find keeping eating under control was easy at the beginning, but now a constant battle of continuous weight checking and trimming intake daily... If I eat out for a few days (weekends  ) I have a week of trimming back.
But since HRT, I have found the sweet tooth I never had before... that is the hardest bit to control, for me.
My height of activity is during snow ski season here in Australia, else its a little bike riding and 1or 2 few KM walks per week.
When I was very much larger (90+)kg (5'4") I tried exercising it off, never succeeded until I stuck to a strict diet, got it down to 70Kg for many years, then on HRT pushed it down to ~64Kg... but happier now, just need to be strict again to get down to <61Kg but like you finding it so tough!

Good luck and for continuing your journey.

Look forward to seeing you about the forum's

L Katy 

[New2Brooke65]

Thanks, all.  Very helpful to have you share your perspectives.  So, it's good to know there is at least light at the end of the tunnel -- just that the tunnel is a way longer than I thought. 

I guess there's two ways to view this situation. Glass 64% empty, as in past life opportunity lost...  or glass 31% full, as in the rest of my life in front of me, less four years more transition, to finally live authentically.

I am feeling the deepest pangs of regret that I didn't figure this out way sooner... 

[carlab]

Former active crosfitter here. Same issues. I have switched entirely to body weight work outs and stopped lifting weights altogether and (heretical to Crosffit) changed to very cardio focused distance work. This has helped me a lot with slimming down. I also eat Paleo and dropped calorie intake by 40ish percent. I am finding that body weight is keeping me "strong enough" even though I have lost a lot of real strength. Max deadlifts, squats have plummeted. Which has caused me a mix of distress and relief.

Long term plan is to start lifting after a while on HRT. Hoping to get to very fit female profile, which I have always admired. So funny the girls at the gym thought I was checking them out, but had no idea it was out of envy and inspiration rather than out of lust. 

[Michaela Whimsy]

During the second month of Marine Corps boot camp almost every recruit markedly dropped in strength.  It comes back in the third month, but I am just using this as my close personal experience that crazy, multiple times a day cardio will burn muscle just like it burns fat. 

I can't really say much, 2 years ago I was in pretty respectable shape, depression kills muscle too apparently.  I was 225lbs 6'00" just under 19min 5k and also did circuit work outs that probably looked more cardio than lifting.  I had never tried to max on anything, but I was using 250 on bench 750 on leg press 275 on row and lat pulls( lots of swimming surfing, wake boarding and water skiing makes for nicer back than chest) I threw in lot as of other things into the circuit also but anyways...

Being absolutely lazy and a few months on hormones I am at 185 and flabby ( for me anyway).  Crazy body and muscle aches now.  The atrophy from both the t-blockers and being lazy is a bad combo.  Its hard to get back moving again for me. I really was afraid to keep working out out of fear of what I could lose at transition .   cardio, kills muscle.  Then bring it back after its gone but it will go where the estrogen tells it to go.

[Lara1969]

Any exercise will keep your muscles mass. Only dieting and stopping weight lifting will help you loosing muscle mass. I maintained distance running to help loosing weight and to maintain some leg muscles to balance out my broad shoulders. I also to something for my back and my stomach muscles.

As a former triathlete and weight lifter I had a lot of muscles. Now after 1.5 yr in hrt and with doing the above mentioned training and some dieting I look like a female swimmer or weight lifter. That is what I was told. But I had FFS and GRS months ago and a BA.

[rachel89]

I can't really give a lot of advice about the right exercises other than gaining more muscle is usually a bad thing if you are trans feminine, and trying to pass an XX female as much as possible. If the issue here is that you are worried aout looking too muscular, then take a look at Caitlyn Jenner.

[New2Brooke65]

Thanks so much for all your responses.  I have the following observations and would like to ask a few follow-up questions.

I. It seems like aerobic activities are the majority consensus.

II. There was also the suggestion of stepping up aerobic activity from 5 days/week to 7 days/week.

III. Diet can be important for weight reduction, even in cases where fat reduction is not the goal but rather muscle reduction.  The problem is that for some/many people, it's very hard to maintain negative calorie discipline.

IV. As to circuit training, it sounds like there are a handful of primary paths:

1. Stop weight training exercise altogether for some period of time, but stay aerobic (or increase it) to get the muscle mass reduction, and then, when target reduction is achieved, resume my training regimen.
2. Go with very lightweight or bodyweight only circuit-type exercise, plus aerobic exercise.
3. Continue my current regimen and wait maybe four years for muscle mass reduction to occur as a result of hormone-induced (or GRS/orchi) massive testosterone reduction.

Which brings me to my follow-up questions:

1. Is there any consensus among you as to which path I listed is preferable?  And why?

2. Is there a sustainable diet that could accompany said consensus path?  (Doesn't sound like it, but I thought I would ask.)  For example, is paleo sustainable even for the muscle drop period?  How do you deal with hunger pangs without feeling tired a lot of the time?  What do you do mentally to maintain diet discipline?

Thanks again to you all.

Brooke

[Dena]

I am not in your boat as I started the transition at 145 pounds and a hight of 6'2" but I lost the hormone induced strength in my arms when I started the hormones. At no point was I doing anything to build upper body strength. Now I do have a body tell and that's the chest cavity and shoulders I inherited from my father. Because it's all bone mass, my only solution is to pick fashion that work with it. The best style for me is office classic which includes a lose fitting blouse. Short or long sleeves are an absolute requirement and need to stay away from sleeveless blouses. Work can be destructive to anything good so I use a XL mans T shirt that shows my boobs but isn't tight enough define my chest cavity.  My weight was up to 203 pounds and I am down to 183 at the last weight check. I have 10 more pounds to go. Because temperatures reach 110 degrees and because of a leg injury I restrict myself to a brisk 3 mile walk every day. The remainder of my weight loss is reducing my intake but for the most part I stick with lean protein with a normal diet.
What ever you do, make sure you get the proper amount of protein in your diet because your heart is also protein and you body isn't very picky where it goes to find protein when it needs it.

[Lady_Oracle]

Losing muscle mass takes a long time, working out or not. I had very little muscle mass but most of it was in my back and that took almost 2 years to lose. My band size went down about 2 sizes. I wouldnt put any focus on upper body exercises.

[OCAnne]

Hello, at 47 years old I am close to your age.  Always been tall (6'3"), thin, medium build with wider shoulders.  After starting HRT, T blockers really helped rid my body of muscle mass. Coupled with 'portion control' (food intake) I was able to lose fat from all the right places.   It was a bummer that breast growth suffered as a result.

I was on HRT 9 months prior to SRS with good results.  Since then it appears muscle reduction has accelerated and fat redistribution kicked into high gear.    Post-op has brought about dramatic changes to my body.  And unlike some girls who undergo SRS, I have lost weight.  Oh and bonus, my breasts are now getting bigger by the day!  I was told this could happen by a couple post-op women.

Controlling the 'T' seems key to reducing body mass.  I am sure there is no better way than to get rid of the 'T' factory.

Anne

Note: My current weight is 175.  Goal is 170?  One again I am 6'3".  I post lots of pictures on my Twitter account if you want an idea what that looks like.

[sparrow]

My best friend is a dietician, and she's taught me some of the theory over the years.  The science of weight loss is simple: change in weight is a function of (calories in) minus (calories out).    Paleo, South Beach, One Weird Trick Doctors Hate... all diets are equally effective.  People lose weight because they're actively paying attention to what they're eating, and the brain sends little rewards for Doing the Right Thing that make the pain of hunger a little more tolerable.

Some programs are especially effective because they reinforce the neurochemistry.  Jenny Craig works.  It takes a lot of work, and you're constantly evaluating how and what you're eating, and it keeps you very honest.  It also costs a bit... like a gym membership, you're more inclined to take it seriously because you want to get value for your money.  Curves works because of the social aspect -- though some of them discriminate based on gender.

Now... something very important to consider here.  Do you have body fat?  If you do, this (calories in) minus (calories out) business works.  It works because a calorie deficit kicks off a process to cut into your fat store.  If that happens and you don't have enough fat to fuel your activities, then it cuts into your muscle store.  That sounds good, until you realize that your heart is also made of muscle.  People who diet to the point that their body is harvesting muscle for short-term energy are at elevated risk of heart failure.  Don't diet if you don't have fat to lose.

[Raelyn2]

Dealing with hunger pangs.

What has worked for me is, I jog in place for 10 min for every 100 calories I eat that could be considered a snack. After a couple of days I gave snacking a second thought. A bit like self-flagellation I know, but has saved me a lot of calories for quite some time now. Of course I'm still not at my goal, and I still find myself jogging in place from time to time, lol. No one cure-all I suppose. Had one girlfriend that talked about downing 32oz of water whenever she wanted to snack. Worked for her, but made for a not-so-happy tummy for me.

With a Bing search for mtf hrt muscle loss, I ran across an article on this subject. The site is about trans health. They talk about cutting protein to lose muscle. I have been thinking about it for a while until reading the earlier post here about heart failure, sheesh. Scary stuff.

Toni

[FrancisAnn]

You should feel better with less weight & less muscle. You might want to try the Atkins diet to help. I feel lucky to be 5-9 with small hands & small feet & a MBI of 27 for now. Good luck.

[New2Brooke65]

A friend of mine who is also a former collegiate football player - outside linebacker, same position as I played - had this to say:

"It took 3 years [to slough off her male-type muscular upper body and arms].  And it's still happening...  FFS [at a little less than one year on hormone therapy] was the swinger [the inflection point when she stopped being identified as "sir" frequently by people who didn't know her].  Next was voice.  I passed in about a year...  Clothes are easy. [In my opinion, she dressed to mask her upper body and arms to a degree.]  The muscle is less of an issue since people prefer thin and muscular...  The hands however continue to haunt me but I try not to wave them around as much as I used to."

I am not sure exactly what she means by "thin and muscular."  I think she's making the distinction between fat and thin.  But I started relatively bulky (but not super bulky) with low fat.  I've already seen significant muscle atrophy in my upper body but it's clearly going to take a long time yet.

In any event, her situation seems to mirror my own and that of a number of people who've commented on this thread.  So, I thought to share.