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Empaths and Empathy

Started by cindybc, September 08, 2007, 07:07:16 AM

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Wing Walker

Hello, Rebis,

Violence is endemic in all cultures.  Always was, always will be.

When I consider what has happened since Europeans came to the Americas, I don't have the same feelings I did as a child in elementary school learning that Columbus "discovered" America in 1492.

In primary school history we were not told that Columbus claimed someone else's land in the name of the monarch who financed his expedition, and in the name of a religion that was not known where he landed.

It wasn't until first year university that the actual impact of this encounter became clear to me.

Aside from decimating the native populations with joyful things like smallpox and sexually transmitted diseases, treating them like lesser beings because they did not subscribe to Christianity, shooting them like wild game, enslaving them, capturing them to take back to Europe as show animals, and utter disregard for the existing societies, social structures, and how they functioned, a visit from Europeans was pretty good for the indigenous peoples of the Americas.

There is violence in all societies.  Shall we consider the Inquisition and what it did to Jews and anyone else perceived to be an "enemy" of the Church as an example?  How many human sacrifices were made in Europe from the time of Joan of Arc to the 18th century, perhaps longer?

The Europeans thought the indigenous peoples in the Americas to be backward because they did not have firearms, gunpowder, armour, big ships, the navigational compass and astrolabe, things made of wood planks, like boats and houses, glass, paints, and a million other items, including distilled alcohol, that the native peoples didn't need.

The technology of the natives was superior to that of the Europeans.  They knew how to live in the lands that they inhabited, how to grow, hunt, and gather food, survive winters, and use herbal medicines. 

I can easily see why the ways of societies that might be deemed "primitive" by some or possibly superior in some ways to how we live.  This is a huge spectrum to cover here. 

The natives of the Americas knew how to live from the land and live off the land.  They were hunter/gatherers and did not base their societies on mining or drilling for oil.  They had no crime, courts, hunger (except when the winter set-in and all were hungry), homelessness, police forces, or pollution.

They cared for their own and if someone committed a crime like murder they were banished from the tribe.

They had their deities and even pantheons but they were no less advanced in knowing the Supreme Being, as they saw it, than anyone else.  Prayer is prayer, be it a church full of people singing hymns or people dressed and performing a rain dance.

They didn't call themselves "savages."  They knew differently.

Thank you for hearing me out on what can be a thorny topic, Rebis,

Thank you all.

Wing Walker
Seeing From A Different Perspective
  •  

buttercup

I agree Wing Walker, violence is found in all cultures and races, right back to the year dot.  No one is innocent of it, especially towards ones enemies..... and man is by nature, vindictive and brutal.
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cindybc

Cosmic Clash

Blackhole_6501.jpg




Astronomers have released an image of what looks like galactic warfare. In a symphony of X-rays (purple), radio waves (blue) and starlight (red), the composite image shows a jet of energy shooting out of a galaxy and hitting its neighbor to the right before splattering into intergalactic space.

The galaxies, with the collective name 3C321, orbit each other about 20,000 light-years apart in the constellation Serpens. Each is thought to harbor a supermassive black hole at its center, where gravity, pressure and unworldly magnetic fields squeeze matter and energy out into space like toothpaste from a tube.

The astronomers, led by Dan Evans of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics in Cambridge, Mass., combined data from the Hubble Space Telescope; the Chandra X-Ray Observatory; the Very Large Array radio telescope in Socorro, N.M.; and the Merlin radiotelescope array operated by the Jodrell Bank Observatory in Britain.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/18/science/space/18blac.html?_r=1&ref=science&oref=slogin

Cindy
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Pica Pica

My question is more, Why are those cultures so instantly, unquestionably (sheep-like-ly) lauded over other cultures. That one of their beliefs is a good and useful one, just because it was one of their beliefs and not someone else's.
  •  

cindybc

Stargates

William Henry: Stargates and Ascension sighting of what appears to be stargates created by unusual energy sources. The warping and folding of time and space?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Mogkhlfn-Wg&feature=related

Cindy

Posted on: December 18, 2007, 05:49:25 AM
Hi Pica Pica This is once again a disclaimer because I speak from my own learning's. I developed my own beliefs and they may not be necessarily the same as the next person. Through the years some of the information I have accumulated were from many different sources. Many little bits and pieces of information gathered from one source or another.

Again  what I share may not be the belief of another. My disclaimers could sound like far fetched material from a science fiction novel. Did you know that there aren't enough adjectives in the dictionary to even begin to describe some of these phenomenas. But then does not science fiction turn out to be tomorrow's proven theory in some scientific discovery?

I truly believe if one individual was truly convinced without the slightest doubt in their potential abilities, one could literally move mountains or even alter time and space, (star gates). There would be no limit to what we could be capable of doing. Sound familiar? Yes there is a brief acknowledgment in the Bible about the Tower of Babel. It reads; Where my people are gathered as one, nothing will be beyond them. Even the heavens will not be beyond them. Could it be that we are not yet ready to gather as one? I believe there are to many self proclaimed tin gods on this planet that need to be gone first for they would wreak havoc with such abilities.

Cindy

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RebeccaFog


Hi Wing Walker,

   Your reply was very gracious.  And I agree with your assessment.

   My initial response was too brief.  I had no intention of slurring earlier or different cultures.  I only meant to say that some people gloss over and idealize the cultures that are from the past.
    I can understand Cindy's perspective because she has experience, but some people (that I know in real life) get all teary eyed when talking about the American native cultures because they think everything was perfect.  The grind of everyday life, and the hardships and some of the imperfect aspects tend to be forgotten so people refer to those ways as if life for the natives was a utopia, which it wasn't.

   I only meant to remind Pica that some people gloss over the past.

   Ever see a movie about the 1930's in America and think it would be a nice simple time to live?  Then you remember everybody was starving and there was a dust bowl and okies were being beaten and murdered for trying to get jobs and then for trying to organize so they could feed their families.
   The cities were run by corrupt officials, the slums were filled with deseases and gangsters were knocking over banks and bootlegging and killing each other and Germany was gearing up for war.

   It's good to know the past, but better to live in the present.


Peace,

Rebis
   
  •  

Pica Pica

especially untechnological societies people get moist eyed about and accept uncritically. 
  •  

RebeccaFog

I know a grown woman who thinks Native Americans were like hippies.  Sometimes I want to transplant my testicles onto her so I can kick her in them.  ::)
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cindybc

"ROFL!!!" Tanks for the good laugh, it made my day and I needed it today.  ;D

Cindy
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Pica Pica

I congratulate you in your teste tramplin' but only in a good cause O'course.
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Wing Walker

Quote from: Rebis on December 18, 2007, 06:20:15 PM
I know a grown woman who thinks Native Americans were like hippies.  Sometimes I want to transplant my testicles onto her so I can kick her in them.  ::)

Hello, Rebis, Pica,

I'll start writing as soon as I stop peeing in my jeans from laughing!  I love it, Rebis!

I suppose that many of us gloss-over other, less mechanized cultures because of the way they were treated in the past.  The Cherokee "Trail of Tears" caused by President Andrew Jackson comes to mind first, followed by the almost total extermination of the First Nations in the U.S. might make some of us more sensitive and cause us to look at the parts of the cultures and Nations that survived.  There might be a guilt in there someplace.

Given what happened last time Europeans interacted with indigenous peoples here it might be better to leave those living in their tribal ways on the Amazon alone.  Their culture might have its defects but it does have its primal right to exist unmolested, and if they can teach us something, all the better.

Perhaps it is not our place to accept or reject the ways of particularly untechnological societies, but rather to just let them exist with as little interference as possible.  Their technology might be huts made of leaves, hunting with a bow and arrow, and folk medicine but that technology allows them to live on their land.

America is still a violent place to live.  There was never a simpler time with open minds.  There was the anti-Mason movement, anti-Catholic riots in Baltimore and Philadelphia, lynchings, race riots, exploitation of just-off-the-boat immigrants by the owners of the anthracite coal mines, the "haves" and "have-nots" of the Gilded Age, and the unceasing violence perpetrated against GLBTTSQQ persona a la Matthew Sheppard and others whose names escape me right now.

Your points are most valid, if I might say so.  The bottom line here might well be not to mess with that which works, including "primitive" cultures and *us,* whomever we might be.

Thank you again for hearing me out.

Wing Walker
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Pica Pica

Makes sense, and native american music is good stuff.
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RebeccaFog

Quote from: cindybc on December 18, 2007, 06:40:59 PM
"ROFL!!!" Tanks for the good laugh, it made my day and I needed it today.  ;D

Cindy
You're welcome.  It's my job in the universe to squeeze the air out of peoples' lungs.   :)

Posted on: December 18, 2007, 11:15:27 PM
Quote from: Wing Walker on December 18, 2007, 07:00:42 PM
Quote from: Rebis on December 18, 2007, 06:20:15 PM
I know a grown woman who thinks Native Americans were like hippies.  Sometimes I want to transplant my testicles onto her so I can kick her in them.  ::)

Hello, Rebis, Pica,

I'll start writing as soon as I stop peeing in my jeans from laughing!  I love it, Rebis!
The 2nd part of my job in life is emptying peoples' bladders.   :laugh:
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cindybc

The primitive peoples of this world, before any of the modern conveniences of even the horse and buggy era, maybe even before the horse, were ruled by the elements, most, before they started to grow crops. They were gatherers first, then farmers.

Light materials such as animal hides were used as wall coverings to keep the wind and rain out of their temporary home. The ladies carried what such implements as utensils used for cooking, mending and any other variety of domestic work carried out by them. These were wrapped with the hides into a bundle for the ladies to carry on their backs.

The warriors carried their own tools for hunting fishing or whatever was necessary to take with them in case they ran into a war party. These tools were carried as a pack on their backs as they migrated south in the winter and back north in the spring.

Their lives may have been simple and peaceful for the most part, but definitely not without some hardships, like starvation or freezing to death during the lean cold winter months and sometimes there were intertribal wars in order to gain land that still had wild game and other sources of edibles.

They believed that the many different elements of nature, like earth, water, fire, and air were considered to be the demi gods, like lightning and thunder.  They believed it was the great thunder god.  Then there was Father Sun which gave life to Mother Earth and the many others who watched and guided them while they lived her on Mother Earth.

The Moon was the Grandmothers who was in charge of the cycles of Mother Earth and all that lived upon her. Then there were the Grandfather Stars from where Mother Earth's children had once come and shall so return. 

The wind was the the breath of the Great Spirit speaking to those who would listen for it. It's been a long time since I was taught these simple beliefs and deities.  It's been a long time since I lived on the reservation.

It is believed that some who were shaman or medicine men were connected with the spirits of the departed ancestors and family members. It is also believed that some could do such thing as shape shifting, healing and other miscellaneous phenomena  that appear to indicate more advanced psychic attributes then we have thus far in the present day.

Also there was the berdache, if you can find the word in the dictionary you will find that they are closely related to the definition of the modern day Transsexual. These gifted individuals were believed to be two spirited, in other words having one foot in the female spirit realm and the other foot in the male spirit realm. These individuals were thought to be great medicine and were given unanimously by the tribe the status of Shaman.

Cindy
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Jaimey

I just had a thought (careful now! they don't happen too often... :P) about the idea of ancient cultures being glorified...I was thinking that maybe the reason ancient civilizations are lauded over the cultures of the current industrialized world (especially the US) is because to us WASPs and repressed Catholics (no offense to anyone who is Catholic...though I really doubt anyone in this thread is going to be offended), these ancient cultures seem freer, at least in terms of accepted thought...maybe?  ???

The idea of believing in a higher power that isn't a judgmental father figure sending us all into the fires of damnation gives us a sense of freedom and relief from, well, the promise of an eternity in the fires of damnation, should we be so unlucky as to experience any sort of pleasure during the span of our lifetime.  (Though if making fun of people is a hell-worthy sin, there's a warm place by the fire with my name on it... >:D)

Posted on: December 22, 2007, 12:03:47 AM
Quote from: Rebis on December 18, 2007, 11:19:48 PM
The 2nd part of my job in life is emptying peoples' bladders.   :laugh:

I'd better clean that up...



Posted on: December 22, 2007, 12:09:02 AM
Quote from: cindybc on December 17, 2007, 08:33:43 PM
I Love your probing mind :o)
Cindy     

:icon_redface:

I wish I could live for a few hundred years, so I could learn everything there is to learn and gain a complete understanding of the world!  Actually, I'd really like to be a guru...

Posted on: December 22, 2007, 12:15:41 AM
I was going to write this earlier, but I got distracted...back to the indigo children...

I was reading about the Indigo children and I do have several of the characteristics...but then again, there were a couple that I didn't have.  Are there any sorts of tests or things to help you find out if you are indigo or perhaps something in between?  It's a pretty fascinating subject, really.
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
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cindybc

Ya I got that problem too, when someone cuts a really good joke you will no doubt find me crossing my legs. I love a good belly laugh but I better pay a visit to the powder room first. I love some good humor once in a while. It can go a long ways at disarming people out there as it did on my job.

Cindy

Posted on: December 22, 2007, 01:28:05 AM
Hi Jaimey
Yes if that were true about Hell, Canadian Tire would have a booming business selling coal shovels.

I believe we create our own hells right here on this planet and if we are not totally blind and able to see the errors and fix them and don't repeat them we will prosper. Anyone else being above nasty, I would not want to judge, but then that's just my opinion.

As for Indigo yes there are probably as many different levels at different stages of development as there are human being that are Indigo/empath.

Cindy
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Wing Walker

Quote from: Jaimey on December 22, 2007, 01:04:15 AM
I just had a thought (careful now! they don't happen too often... :P) about the idea of ancient cultures being glorified...I was thinking that maybe the reason ancient civilizations are lauded over the cultures of the current industrialized world (especially the US) is because to us WASPs and repressed Catholics (no offense to anyone who is Catholic...though I really doubt anyone in this thread is going to be offended), these ancient cultures seem freer, at least in terms of accepted thought...maybe?  ???

The idea of believing in a higher power that isn't a judgmental father figure sending us all into the fires of damnation gives us a sense of freedom and relief from, well, the promise of an eternity in the fires of damnation, should we be so unlucky as to experience any sort of pleasure during the span of our lifetime.  (Though if making fun of people is a hell-worthy sin, there's a warm place by the fire with my name on it... >:D)

Posted on: December 22, 2007, 12:03:47 AM
Quote from: Rebis on December 18, 2007, 11:19:48 PM
The 2nd part of my job in life is emptying peoples' bladders.   :laugh:

I'd better clean that up...



Posted on: December 22, 2007, 12:09:02 AM
Quote from: cindybc on December 17, 2007, 08:33:43 PM
I Love your probing mind :o)
Cindy     

:icon_redface:

I wish I could live for a few hundred years, so I could learn everything there is to learn and gain a complete understanding of the world!  Actually, I'd really like to be a guru...

Posted on: December 22, 2007, 12:15:41 AM
I was going to write this earlier, but I got distracted...back to the indigo children...

I was reading about the Indigo children and I do have several of the characteristics...but then again, there were a couple that I didn't have.  Are there any sorts of tests or things to help you find out if you are indigo or perhaps something in between?  It's a pretty fascinating subject, really.

Hi, Jaimey,

May I please address your thesis about a vengeful God and the beliefs of primitive peoples?

I don't know what they believed or didn't but some people practiced human sacrifice to appease their god or gods.  Others made burnt offerings of crops.  I cannot say if the supreme being that they saw was vindictive and judgmental or not but in America we sure have some folks who see it that way.

I have met some people who claim to know where my parking space in hell is located.  I pay them no mind.

For some reason a portion of the people in the United States cannot tell where the division between matters of government end and matters of religion begin.

I can't recall which of the candidates for the presidency said this, but it was during a televised dose of verbal valium (read:  debate) that someone asked a candidate, "What would Jesus do as president?"  The candidate answered that Jesus wouldn't run for public office.  That was some comic relief laced with wisdom.

I have heard from a whole herd of people about what their religious beliefs are and how they see their Supreme Being, and they range all over the place.

I feel sorry for those who live under the nasty gaze of a wrathful god looking to devour their souls, that the only safe fun is no fun, that it's a sin to enjoy life.

Bunk!

I believe that a lot of teachers and preachers have sold millions of people what I call "bad religion."  It's the same as rot-gut whiskey or any poison:  once it enters a person's system the corrosive damage is done.

I don't subscribe to such rubbish and I was taught differently when I was very young.  The First Nations took a good hosing from everyone who crossed their paths, religious or not. 

This life will have to do until something better takes its place, and I believe that it will.  There is a dimension beyond here where the potato chips are crisp, the dips fresh (yikes!), and the soda cold.  If I don't see you before then, I'll see ya there, Jaimey, Rebis, Cindy, and Pica.

Wing Walker
  •  

cindybc

Science vs God


"Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist
professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new
students to stand.

"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes sir," the student says.

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a
moment.

"Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You             can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you
could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he?  My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him.  How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

The student remains silent.



"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

"Let's start again, young fella Is God good?"

"Er...yes," the student says.

"Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."

"Then where does Satan come from?"

The student : "From...God..."

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil
in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"

"Yes."

"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

Without allowing the student to answer, the professor continues: "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"

The student: "Yes."

"So who created them?"

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them? There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized.

"Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus
Christ, son?"

The student's voice is confident: "Yes, professor, I do."

The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"

"No sir. I've never seen Him"

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir, I have not."

"Have you ever actually felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus?  Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"Yes."

"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"

"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."

"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of
his own.  "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."

"And is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No sir, there isn't."

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat,  unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't  darkness?"

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't?  If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"

"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains.  "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."

"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a  monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of  course I do"

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going.  A very good semester, indeed.

"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even  prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean."

The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter.

"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelled the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."

"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"
Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday.  It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
 
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God.

God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

Cindy
  •  

tekla

A:   'Primitive peoples' ???? - not all past civilizations were all that 'primitive' - far from it.   They had varying degrees of political, cultural, social and technological progress that in some cases fell short of our own time, in other cases far outpaced it.  (That CalTrans could begin to build a road as well as the Romans did, we have calendars from Babylon and the Mayan cultures that are dead-on accurate, and our entire technological progress is built on the Hindu-Arabic number system with its ability to do algebra and calculus.  And, most of this conversation is very West-centric, there is a 5,000 year old culture in China that was way beyond primitive back when the west was still trying to work that out.)

B:  Indigenous peoples in various places can not be grouped together for the most part.  There was not one or two, or even three or four major cultures in North America before Columbus, but at least 10 distinct language groups, and civilizations ranging from farming communities with a written language, to sophisticated political alliances like the Iroquois Confederation, to nomadic woodland/prairie cultures like the Dakota and Dakota, true primitive cultures like some of the California tribes, to the high civilizations of the Aztec in Mexico.  (There are also lost civilizations like the Anasazi, who build some pretty sophisticated urban spaces, but abandoned them for reasons still unknown.)

Berdache - a term by the way that native anthropologists hate, (it comes from the Persian meaning slave boy in its original usage) - are not found in all native cultures (we can trace that by language).  Where seemingly common in the SouthWest, they are not found in the five tribes of the deep south (Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Creek, and Seminole) or in the nations of Iroquois Confederacy (the Mohawk, the Oneida, the Onondaga, the Cayuga, and the Seneca).  Their existence and celebration, and roles within indigious cultures was by no means universal.

Where some of these tribes were nomadic, others were are rooted as could be - a pueblo is hard to move.  Some were warlike - or more of a warrior cast than others.  There were tribes that did not even have a name for the idea of 'private property' there were others that were so obsessed by property that they had huge celebrations to destroy it in unique version of 'conspicuous consumption.' 

D.  "Their culture might have its defects but it does have its primal right to exist unmolested, and if they can teach us something, all the better."  I wonder......
Do they have a right to exist unchanged by the passing of time?  When and where has this right ever been upheld?  Is it possible for them to teach us anything if they are unmolested, since the basic act of observation is - in and of itself - an act of molesting them. (In physics its called the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, social scientists haven't figured out a term that cool yet, but its real to them also.)   I highly recommend a movie called At Play in the Fields of the Lord to see this in action.

E.  "I know a grown woman who thinks Native Americans were like hippies."  She is halfway there.  More like, the hippies patterned a lot of their beliefs and practices on some sort of vague, gumbo, panache of Native Culture.   (Some vague mix of Hopi, Dakota/Lakota and Shoshone - so it was a very specific Great Plains/SouthWest native culture borrowing.)  They did this because they were looking for a specifically American model to use as the basis for the society and culture, and 'tribe' came about as close as it could get.  "Family" was too polluted by the "nuclear family" deal, and "community" sounded too much like the sociology courses they took back East at Bryn Mawr and Dartmouth.  The first 'hippie' event, the Love-In in SFs Golden Gate Park was really entitled "A Gathering of the Tribes" and subsequent events - including the recent 40th Anniversary, have also used that "Gathering of the Tribes" image and language.  The feature native cultures and rituals, from purification stuff like sage smudge to native invocations, and raise money, some of which finds its way to native organizations.  So its not just lip service, its a real deal, however warped.  But it is because the hippies were looking for something very American to guide them.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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cindybc

Hi Tekla

Thanks for filing in all the blanks. I was concentrating mostly on the Ojibwa nation because they are whose history I am most acquainted with I grew up next door to the res. and even lived there for a time. I know about the Aztecs, Incas, the Pueblo builders, Pyramid Builders, the Sumerians, Rome, Egyptians, The ancient Chines cultures And the ancient culture in India. The hippies adopting some of the North American Native culture, I was one of them hippies so I did see that trend with my own eyes. It was also a really wonderful time for the girls to show off their artistic talents. 

The word Bardach as to my knowledge was the word the french used that was meant to closely describe what is known today as transsexual. The Natives saw them as two spirits. 

But I found your illustration of some of the many advanced, ancient cultures very interesting

Cindy   
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