Curious about Trans in General

[Michael00]

Hey everyone! I'm a new member here and this is my first post. I hope it is ok that I'm posting on here. I am not dealing with any gender related issues myself and, to be honest, I don't know of anyone who is. That said, I am a very curious guy and have been trying to wrap my head around it recently. It is a bit of a life goal to understand where people are coming from so I thought someone could help me out.

A little about myself: I am from Texas and grew up in the country about an hour drive from the city within a super conservative church (think cult). In the last 7 years I became far more enlightened, left that religion behind and lost the support of 100% of my friends and family. It was kind of rough. That said, alls well that ends well and I am far happier now that I see the world through far more, lets say accurate lenses.

I have been trying to understand ->-bleeped-<- as a concept, but I guess I'm struggling with the idea. A big part of moving way from my 1950's-esque picture of the world is understanding that gender doesn't necessarily define behavior, feelings, social roles, etc. I have been, to those I've discussed gender with, the champion of the idea that gender does not account for nearly as much of our thoughts and feelings as we say it does. Moreover, behavior that society assigns to a binary gender role almost never has anything to do with biological gender and is rather part of the gender typing process (just read this myself for a refresher from psyc classes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_typing ).

In my ignorant point of view, I can't understand why we need to replace one gender role for another and try to fit into societies expectations of the gender opposite our biology. I know there is some discussion of gender fluidity, but almost everything I hear about ->-bleeped-<- is about trading one role for another due to feelings that one relates to the other gender better. From my perspective, that is reinforcing the same idea of gender roles I was taught as a child. 

I imagine a future world where there is no such thing as gender identity, and we only talk about gender in the context of reproduction and proper fitting clothes. Otherwise, we love who we love, we feel what we feel and we do what we do without living in this categorical thought of genders. In that world, which I feel like society has been slowly moving towards, would it even make sense to say that you feel like the opposite gender?

I really hope that doesn't offend anyone, which is definitely not my intention. Can anyone shed any light on the subject?

[Ms Grace]

Hey Michael

Welcome to Susan's    Great to have you here - looking forward to seeing you around the forum.

Being trans gender is usually about a lot more than adopting a gender role. Many trans people feel they do not have the right body and have been assigned to a particular identity as a result. And yes, in society at the moment gender roles are fairly well ingrained, although it could be argued that compared to 100 years ago they are a lot less so. I know I tried to live with the attitude that I could be a "man" since I didn't have to adhere to any of the macho or manly stereotypes generally expected of men, but that only got me so far. What I needed socially and in terms of relationship could not be attained through adopting a gender neutral male persona, I needed to be seen and socially accepted as female and I needed my body to approximate a genetic female body (via hormone therapy). I'm much happier for it than ever before.

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[Michael00]

Thanks Grace!

I know I tried to live with the attitude that I could be a "man" since I didn't have to adhere to any of the macho or manly stereotypes generally expected of men, but that only got me so far. What I needed socially and in terms of relationship could not be attained through adopting a gender neutral male persona...

That makes sense. Society has created binary gender roles and a transgendered person is naturally fitting into the one they most identify with. I wonder if more/most trans people would be comfortable living as their biological gender if society changed to the point where gender became far more irrelevant.

[Cindy]

Hi Michael,

Nice to have you on board, and thank you for your respectful questions.

I'm not sure about the gender irrelevant concept. Yes I totally agree that the 'gender role' as far as society, privilege, acceptance should not exist. There is no reason why any gender should be regarded as, or treated as, lesser or greater than another. But there does appear to be a biological drive to identify as a gender, whether that is binary or non-binary.

Non-binary people do not identify as either male or female and find it (obviously) difficult to understand how anyone can identify as a binary (male or female) gender. I think the reverse is also true - no matter how totally accepting I am of anyones identification. Acceptance and understanding is not always the same thing.

I love men and accept them, of course. They are my sexual partners and I like lots and lots of things about them. But I struggle to understand them at times, even though my gender was affirmed male at birth.

I suppose that summarises the trans* condition. I was affirmed male at birth based on my genitals, but I have a female brain. My trans*brothers were the opposite.

There is a lot of good scientific study now. Published in high impact journals, including Cell and Nature, on mutations in androgen receptors in trans* people. There are impressive MRI studies from the Amsterdam Group (I'll get the references if you wish) demonstrating involuntary response to pheromones in trans* people. transwomen's brains tend to react the same way as cisfemale's and the the same for transmen, the react the same as cismales. The response in the trans* groups were different than that of the homosexual male and female groups.

It is a fascinating area. But no matter the interesting science etc; I just wish I as born cisfemale, then I could have been me from birth!

But then I would have not met my wonderful community, and that I would totally regret.

Cindy

[Ms Grace]

I wonder if more/most trans people would be comfortable living as their biological gender if society changed to the point where gender became far more irrelevant.

I have wondered this myself - from my own point of view I can only say no, my body feels and looks right now, it never did before so presumably there is more at work for me than simply gender as a sociological concept.

[Anna R]

In my ignorant point of view, I can't understand why we need to replace one gender role for another and try to fit into societies expectations of the gender opposite our biology. I know there is some discussion of gender fluidity, but almost everything I hear about ->-bleeped-<- is about trading one role for another due to feelings that one relates to the other gender better. From my perspective, that is reinforcing the same idea of gender roles I was taught as a child. 

[/quote

Well,  a person who questions why we need to be replacing our current gender role with another binary option !!!
Well said my friend.
I  told my gender doctor that I was not aiming to become the normal image of a female person as dictated by the
societal /media images.
I am 68 and commencing Hormones in a few months, have to get past the Psychiatrist  to get to the Endo specialist
and am aiming for what I call Super femm androgyny , I wasn't born with a biological female body so, I am Transgender, why should I have to fit the binary system that is not accurate  and is artificially man made.
I fully understand where you are coming from and can see no issue there.
Regards, Anna

[katrinaw]

Hello Michael,
Welcome to Susan's...

Very interesting post, and, no certainly doesn't offend me  .

Funny you mentioning the 50'ish view of the world, because that's exactly how it was then, I was a UK born male. But right from around 4 (earliest memory) I felt at odds and wanted to be a girl, had no sisters, and, had then 1 brother and then a couple of years later another brother. But there I was, knowing I should be a girl. I didn't even know about physical differences till around 5, when sharing a bath with my girl cousin... then I realised and suffered many years. It was around 40 odd years later that I was not unique and had been struggling with my emotions all that time.

I recall that when I asked our family Dr why aren't I a girl, all those years ago, he turned to my mother and said, its a normal thing for a child and they'll grow out of it.
But guess what, you don't! your attitude, demeanour are all wired female, or male for FTM, some of us can manage it well, others not so. But each wave of emotions keep coming, stronger and stronger, very seldom can you ignore it.

Today acceptance is slightly better than many years back, so more and more are happier to actually open up to who they are and release themselves from effectively an internal prison.

Personally I still have a little way to go, but even now I can honestly say, the knowing you are not alone and being able to come out of hiding, making those changes is so regenerating to your mind and soul.

As for binary, it does depend, I guess on how your emotions effect you, how strong that mind's view of yourself is?

Not sure if that helps a bit.

But in any case welcome and see you about the forum's.

L Katy 

[Dena]

Lucky for you that you will never truly understand what it's like to be a transexual. First you need to understand that we are the result of a birth defect and you can read more about it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism

Children as young as 2 or 3 may know they are the wrong gender but many of us are late bloomers and discover it when we enter puberty. As much as people would like to say genders are equal, they are not My childhood before gender dysphoria consisted of a little boy who liked to dress up nice ( though in boys clothes), I hated blue jeans, I was clean, polite, had a mothering nature with the smaller children around me, liked passive play with girls and disliked sports with the boys. My parents did nothing to encourage this type of behavior and when the truth hit, I did everything possible to burry it because I knew it was wrong for me to have feelings of being a girl.

As much as CIS want to say there is no difference between genders, they are only speaking from the comfort of their own gender. They have never reached the point of being so uncomfortable with their gender the suicide becomes a welcome escape. I have been there and I can understand why 2 out of 5 have joined me.

Through therapy and cross living i was able to become comfortable with myself but if I had to return to my male role I would have lost all the gains I made. The SRS didn't alter my life but it did make it permanent and I have lived for 33 years in comfort never regretting the decision I made.

Genders are different but I will not say one gender is better than the other. Each has it own reason for existing with it's own advantages and disadvantages.

I welcome any question you might have and I am completely open about my medical history. I only wish the general public had a better idea about us. They fail to understand we only want to be happy in life and that requires living the role our brain tells us we are.

[suzifrommd]

Welcome Michael.

Here is my take: Human beings are wired to be a particular gender. All of us, not just trans people.

In a famous case from years ago, a child named David Reimer was given a sex change to repair damage to his genitals, with the assumption he could be raised as a girl. It didn't work. He internally "knew" he was male. It is now understood that people are born with their gender wired into their brain.

Because gender and physical body sex (i.e. genital shape) develop at different times, it is possible for someone's brain to develop as a female, but their body to develop as a male (or vice versa). That person will have a brain that wants them to be female and do female things, but a body that will develop as male.

Make sense?

There are lots of ways this can be experienced. Some people feel like they are in the "wrong" body. Others just have this powerful need to be a member of the opposite gender. Others still feel like something is wrong, but are not sure what.

There are also people who understand their gender as not matching either of the two binary sexes. There are lots of ways this can be experienced. For example, agender people don't identify with any particular gender and genderfluid people sometimes identify with one and sometimes with another.

Important to know that this is unrelated to gender roles. Males and females play different roles in different cultures. In some cultures, roles are quite similar, and different in others. All such cultures have transgender people, because being transgender is not about wanting a particular role. It's about identifying as a particular gender, and wanting to see ourselves as a member of that gender, independent of whichever roles we decide to adopt.

Does that help clear things up?

[amoeba]

There is a lot of good scientific study now. Published in high impact journals, including Cell and Nature, on mutations in androgen receptors in trans* people. There are impressive MRI studies from the Amsterdam Group (I'll get the references if you wish) demonstrating involuntary response to pheromones in trans* people. transwomen's brains tend to react the same way as cisfemale's and the the same for transmen, the react the same as cismales. The response in the trans* groups were different than that of the homosexual male and female groups.

Hi Cindy. That really does sound fascinating, I'd appreciate it if you could share the references. I'd love to read more about this. Thank you!

[LordKAT]

I don't think it was the role so much as having a physical body that wasn't right. It  is like if you woke up to live your normal day but had somehow jumped in to a body of the opposite sex. All the same feelings and you would reach for body parts that aren't there. Now do this every day of your life and you have some idea of how it is for me.


I'm not sure that helps with your understanding though.

[ForceMustang]

I don't think it was the role so much as having a physical body that wasn't right.

Exactly that for me. I'm a ftm because I identify as male, but I have a female body, and I'm still in the pre transition limbo. The only thing that keeps making me consider transition more and more seriously as time goes by is this feeling of wrongness with my body. In fact, the thought than if I transition I will be expected to act according to male stereotypes, or that my social image is going to change annoys me. I do wish for the future society you talk about, and I do not wish to conform to any gendered social image. It's only about being in a body that will not freak me out every seconds of every day (it's only emotions and feelings toward my body to sum it up). The social transition is merely an inevitable consequence in the society of here and now.

(Speaking for myself here, and about my personal story only.)

[Asche]

One thing to keep in mind is that there are many, many ways to be trans.  I don't think there's any explanation or definition of "how to be trans" that would apply to all or even most trans people.  About the only thing that we have in common is that living as our birth gender somehow isn't working for us.

Some trans people are really, really uncomfortable with the body they got at birth (or puberty), others are okay with it, or at least aren't unhappy enough to want surgery.  (And everything in between.)

Some trans people are strongly attracted to things that are labeled as being (only) for the gender they weren't assigned to,  some aren't.  There are trans women who are tomboys, there are trans men who like dresses, skirts, etc.

For some people, it's the way people of their assigned gender are socialized to be and are expected to be that's the biggest problem.  This is deeper than just not liking football or not liking dresses and make-up.  For some people, like me and a trans man I know, it's also that who and what we were supposed to be like and how people related to us as our assigned gender was just plain contrary to our nature.  Not to mention all the things we were not allowed to do because of our assigned gender.  (He's particularly mad about that -- his interests and abilities are pretty much all in areas seen as "for men only" in our society, so every thing he's tried to do, he's been blocked or sidelined or shut out for being seen as female.)

And for some people, it's just an indefinable sense of wrongness about being their assigned gender.  They can do their (assigned) gender, but it's like a left-handed person being forced to do things right-handed.  You have to fight yourself the whole time.  Or being a left-threaded bolt being screwed into a right-threaded hole.  Yeah, with enough force, you can get it in, but it's a fight and you strip the threads in the process.

BTW, this is why I'm skeptical of the "female-brain/male-brain" theories: trans people are just too varied for any single explanation to apply to them all.