Are we doing ourselves a disservice by separating gender and sex

[iKate]

I never understood why the science was made out to be this way, in that sex and gender are separate entities and we are only modifying our gender presentation, not our sex or even our gender itself.

To me this tends to give people the impression that we are still what we were assigned at birth. Maybe someone can explain this to me better. Isn't sex determined primarily by hormones, and the Y chromosome is simply a "suggestion" and the actual sex was determined by hormones? This is an oversimplified explanation, but it's the impression I got.

In any case, as an argument thrown up in defense against people saying we are not "real" I think it is a particularly bad one. Note that I am talking about those of us who medically transition, not those who are simply identified as trans but take no steps medically.

The fact is that those of us who do transition medically have secondary sexual characteristics of the gender/sex we are transitioning to. Our hormone levels are that of the sex/gender we identify as. On legal documents such as passports and driver licenses there is also no distinction between sex and gender. 

Am I thinking this all wrong? Please feel free to disagree.

Or please feel free to agree! I admit that this bothers me because it just allows people to constantly reinforce why we will never be "real" or "equal" and that somehow we are resigned to a lower place in society. It also gives justification for people to say that we are either our assigned sex or that we are de-sexed.

[spacerace]

I also don't like the distinction between sex and gender because it always seems to imply that sex is biological while gender is something culturally constructed.

That said, sometimes there needs to be some sort of distinction in terminology when you speak to a healthcare professional in some contexts, especially for trans guy to explain what is going on with our bodies because many of us don't get bottom surgery but still consider ourselves fully transitioned.

From what I have read on this forum and elsewhere, when a fetus develops, it gets exposed to hormones at various stages of development. At some point the Y chromosome kicks in and differentiates 'sexual' characteristics for the downstairs region, and that is one of the only purposes it serves. Brain development happens separately, and if something goes wrong for whatever reason and the growing brain is exposed to cross-sex hormones, you can get a trans person.

In the above context, sex would be when the Y or lack of Y sets the stage for body parts, while gender is brain development influenced by hormones that hit at the right time. But, an understanding of it at this level seems to be absent even among the trans population, so it remains a difficult issue.

[Arch]

Well, it's not that simple. Let's speak practically. If sex MARKERS were determined primarily by hormones, then every infant would need a DNA test at (or before) birth. Otherwise, the docs could not accurately sex them for birth certificates. Instead, babies are categorized in one glance at their crotches, and they live as the sex that some random doctor assigned them.

I am always amused when bigots scream that trans people cannot change their sex because sex is determined by DNA. I doubt that the screamers have been tested. As far as I am concerned, they might as well be a deadalive cat in a box--except that until their sex is determined by a DNA test, they are both male and female at the same time.

DNA is used in the scientific world to determine sex, but how many people in the real world have been tested? And what about all of those people with unusual DNA?

P.S. I also differentiate between gender identity, which I see as determined by the brain, and gender expression (determined by each individual), gender assignment (what society expects from people), gender roles (determined by society), and so on. Just plain "gender" I see as entirely socially constructed. Science has sex; society has gender.

[Tysilio]

The reasons for making the distinction have nothing to do with science, and everything to do with language and perception.

For one thing, we live (at least Americans do) in a very puritanical culture, one in which attaching the word "sex" to anything makes it dirty, dirty, dirty -- so there's an automatic "ick" factor for the public at large when they hear a word like "transSEXual." For another, the struggle for trans rights has been closely linked with that for gay and lesbian rights, and using a term like gender identity is a way of distinguishing "trans-ness" from sexual orientation; again, the general public has trouble with this distinction even when it's put that way. They need all the help we can give them.

[iKate]

The reasons for making the distinction have nothing to do with science, and everything to do with language and perception.

For one thing, we live (at least Americans do) in a very puritanical culture, one in which attaching the word "sex" to anything makes it dirty, dirty, dirty -- so there's an automatic "ick" factor for the public at large when they hear a word like "transSEXual." For another, the struggle for trans rights has been closely linked with that for gay and lesbian rights, and using a term like gender identity is a way of distinguishing "trans-ness" from sexual orientation; again, the general public has trouble with this distinction even when it's put that way. They need all the help we can give them.

Yes, I agree with this.

Today we are telling people that we aren't changing our sex. Years ago, (for a MTF anyway), SRS was referred to colloquially as a "sex change." I don't even think gender was in the conversation.

I know I was not born with female reproductive organs or 46,XX karyotype. That is a given. But what does my chromosomal makeup matter? Once I've been on HRT for a while and I've had SRS, what makes me not female? I won't have a uterus, nor ovaries, but will that matter? There are cisgender women who don't have them either. I will need breast cancer screenings as well. The hormones also change a lot of your body to conform to the female sex. In fact, HRT also diminishes or eliminates your ability to reproduce all on its own because your male sex organs don't have the right hormones to sustain them.

Admittedly I don't know that much about FTM but I'm learning, but from what I understand, T stops periods and may reduce the chance of pregnancy too.

So how are we not altering our sexual makeup to some degree?

[ChiGirl]

Arch, that was a perfect answer. I leave it at that.

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[Rejennyrated]

And yet I think these different terms play out differently in different cultures. Here in the UK I dont believe there is that problem with the word sex.

I do think I changed sex - and with respect I would find it very invalidating for anyone to tell me that I didnt. I think susans rules would probably say that invalidating my identity was not allowed - so in reality we cant say that. However lets set that aside for a moment otherwise we would end up unable to discuss this at all. Yes there were limitations to what could be achieved at that time - but even so changing sex was 100% of what I was seeking to do. I wasnt in the slightest bit concerned with my gender and I'm still not today.

To me as a medic sex is the physical part - crudely what you have between your legs - whether you have body hair or breasts, what reproductive organs you have (if any), your physical characteristics. Now most of those you can modify... oddly you may note that I havent mentioned chromosomes and thats because if you want to be medically exact its not X or Y alone that determines your sex. In actual fact it would more accurate to say that a singe gene of just over 1000 base pairs that nomally resides on the Y chromosome, namely SRY is the determining factor.

Now bear in mind SRY can be translocated to the X chromosome and when it is you get an XX male - they do exist although they are rare and usually have reduced fertility.

Likewise the AR gene which normally resides on the X chromosome - is the thing which determines the bodies ability to respond to androgens and because in XY karotypes there is only one copy it is possible to get XY females if this gene is either completely or partially faulty (as indeed it is with me).

So contrary to what the idiot public think chromosomes are NOT the determinant of sex - just two small genes, which can easily become swapped from one chromosome to another, are! It's true that as yet these genes are not modifiable - but it is likely that at some point in the forseable future they will be.

Anyway to return to the main point

Sex is about the hardware (the physical bits)
gender is about the software (your behaviour and societal role - what you do with it)

Now I happen to be entirely of the opinion that these are different and indeed MUST be recognised as being so, because I am someone who would maintain that my problems were entirely with the physical and NOT with my societal role and behavioural expectations. In that respect I am the polar opposite of the transwoman who wants to do all the makeup and feminine glam stuf - I'm not really interested in all that. All I wanted was female physical bits...

And so we will always have a terminology problem because the trans grouping seeks, for entirely noble reasonse, to embrace a hugely wide spectrum of different motivations. I am absolutely clear that it was sex and ONLY sex I was seeking to modify, others feel that it is gender that really matters to them. Neither of us is in anyway invalid or less genuine - we are just different.

Now its unfortunate that this is complicated but there isnt really a way around it without getting into highly divisive and therefore unhelpful territory. The only way it can work is to explain to people that, while the two things are separate, your perceived gender as a complex human is made up of a synthesis of both of them - which is why human gender expression even among, so called, "cis" people is a hugely variable spectrum.

In fact I personally would even go further in being non divisive, and look forward to the day when we realise that even dividing cis and trans is artificial, because everyone is actually on a spectrum and therefore in my opinion there is no cis or trans, they are just the extremes of the gender identity spectrum.

TLDR - arguing about terminology is almost impossible because what fits one person and seems right to them, will probably invalidate and threaten someone else, and visa-versa. This is why we humans end up having to split hairs so often.

[Promethea]

Well, it is more complex than that, MUCH more complex actually.

For starters, gender is a word that comes from linguistics. In Spanish, for example, banco (stool) is a word with masculine gender, while silla (chair) has feminine gender. No penises or vaginas involved. That's why the word was brought over to social sciences, to talk about something that doesn't involve penises, vaginas, hormones, gonads, etc.

And yes, it is a social construct. There's nothing wrong with that. Ying and Yang, feminine and masculine, have attributes that are different from the feminine and masculine archetypes in other civilisations, like the native peoples of America.

Does that mean we don't change our sex? Well, no, it's not so simple as I said. We have several sexes. Usually they match, they're all male or all female (noticed how I didn't use those words when talking about gender? Those words are strictly about sex, for gender we use masculine and feminine, man and woman, boy and girl), but not always, not even for cis people.

What are all these sexes? Well, I'm actually trying to find this text where "gender" was first used to talk about people, I need it for something I'm writing, so hopefully tonight I can answer properly, but there are like four or five. Off the top of my head I remember chromosomal sex, hormonal sex and genital sex. So yeah, we definitely change some of them.

[Promethea]

Oh, and what we're assigned at birth is gender, not sex, which is the biggest mistake they could do. Specially because they do it by observing our genital sex.

If we were just allowed to grow into our genders, things would be very different for us, and probably others, but that's just conjectures

[spacerace]

Remember how good it felt to wear the right clothes the first time and see yourself in the mirror? The relief of wearing the right underwear?  Your brain was happy because it knew what it needed, not because of some cultural standard, yet clothes are definitely culture.

I knew I didn't fit the cultural role of a woman because my brain is wired for the cultural role of a man. It wasn't learned from what I observed around me.

I should add that when I say gender isn't cultural, I mean isn't culturally constructed, IE, created by people independent of biology.

How do we explain what is mismatched without two separate words? I think Arch is right that there needs to be like 8 different terms to break it all down, but in the end, our brains don't match our bodies in whatever individual ways it happens, and those terms to compare it are sex and gender.

[jessical]

Some of this touches on the common knowledge of words used in the past.  Specifically, transsexual.  While it is an accurate term, the common knowledge of it is just surgery.  If you say you are a transsexual then, people ask Pre or Post Op, because they think it is just about the surgery.  With transgender, people don't immediately ask that and it gives them some pause that it is not just surgery.  It is easier to tell people that being transgender deals with the mind, because they have not already associated it with surgery.  Plus, transgender is a broader term that encompasses a large more diverse group of people, which is a good thing. 

The problem is an understandably one, even the word transgender is not an accurate one.  My gender has always been female, and I am changing things physically to match my brain, which changes how society sees me as well.  I don't feel I am changing my gender.  It is that we want to be ourselves, which is sometimes a small amount to of mismatch between the body and the brain, to a complete mismatch.

I hope this encompasses the diverse transgender group.  I will fully admit that I don't understand it at a deep enough level to know if the above statement is true or not for everyone.

My hope is that whatever words are used, society will make progress in the understand of what we are, even if the word are not exactly matching to the Latin meaning.