Yeson voice feminization surgery 2.0

[anjaq]

On the other hand - my pitch increase is not that dramatic - maybe 40 Hz - but my voice changed in the way it sounds to a much more feminine tone. So even using the same pitch as I often used pre OP, my voice does sound differently. Its not just pitch that changes, its also the undertones, but of course prosody changes are indirect (the surgery gives maybe the ability to change prosody more easily because it takes away the strain of increasing pitch by training)

[Ritana]

On the other hand - my pitch increase is not that dramatic - maybe 40 Hz - but my voice changed in the way it sounds to a much more feminine tone.  Its not just pitch that changes, its also the undertones, but of course prosody changes are indirect (the surgery gives maybe the ability to change prosody more easily because it takes away the strain of increasing pitch by training)

I have to agree with you on this. I think it's partly because pitch increase makes the interval / range available for fluctuation wider. Julia Roberts is said to have the gender neutral fundamental frequency of 170 hz ( same as me preop) but her prosody enables her voice to be perceived as female.

[KayXo]

What the surgery does- if it is successful- is increase the pitch, no more, no less.

That is what I've (and others) have been saying all along. Resonance is key to sounding female and can be changed without surgery, by changing how one uses their muscles. I disagree about inflection or the way one speaks as I've not changed either but only resonance and my voice passes 100% of the time on the phone.

[anjaq]

I disagree about inflection or the way one speaks as I've not changed either but only resonance and my voice passes 100% of the time on the phone.

So maybe you are or were doing this the right way all along before anyways? - For some it is like that. I never consciously learned inflection or ways to speak, it just developed ok anyways mostly. Except that when I am a bit tired or sad, my voice melody and pitch range narrows and I sound monotone, which is not good and is perceived as masculine.
Masculine is not male though - a woman can sound absolutely female but still have a bit of a masculine voice. If a woman swears like a guy, its masculine, but it does not question her gender.
Its the same thing as with all the other "passing" issues - its the sum that counts. if your voice is female and you swear, no problem, if your voice is already neutral and then you use wording or intonations or swear in a way that usually guys do it, then the perception may swing from neutral to male.

[KayXo]

In the end, the more we care if this or that is giving us away, the more we are worrying ourselves, the more we become stressed (we might end up living less and a poorer quality of life due to stress) and then what's the point of doing this at all? Isn't the point being free, being carefree, just being ourselves and doing the things we love as opposed to living for others? Of being happy, stress-free? I know it's not easy but I don't know, it just seems all so wrong to me. My 2 cents...

[Denjin]

I'm not a moderator, but it would be nice if we could keep thread for those who have gone or are interested in going to Yeson.  We don't need to get into arguments around the necessity of voice surgery, confidence, etc.

Seems my work is fairly insistent on taking sick leave.  I'll just try my eventual Yeson letter at the GP when I get back and get something...

Any suggestions on things to do whilst in Seoul? If I wasn't alone or could speak I think I'd do more stuff.  As it is, I think I'll spend some time studying for a certification exam, but definitely don't want to be a hermit the entire trip.

[Ritana]

I see your point, kayXo. The way your voice is perceived by others helps them-subconsciously- determine your gender to a degree, and this will have an impact on the way most people treat you.

I have a post-op friend who is extremely passable, but has a truck driver like voice. The minute she opens her mouth, people change their attitude/ behaviour towards her.

In my case, I wanted to eliminate any minor doubt in people's mind. Yes, I am extremely passable (not bragging, though), but I am still not a ciswoman. Ciswomen can affoard to slip sometimes, and get away with having some masculine features. It's all in the mind.

[anjaq]

Any suggestions on things to do whilst in Seoul? If I wasn't alone or could speak I think I'd do more stuff.  As it is, I think I'll spend some time studying for a certification exam, but definitely don't want to be a hermit the entire trip.

Don't worry about being alone or mute. Consider this - most Koreans seem to be not so good in english anyways, so what would you do then if you could talk? Well, the same you can do now - point, gesticulate, etc...
Being alone is the bigger thing maybe as it makes of course some things less fun. But you still can do things - stroll Meyongdong and Insadong and do shopping there, do some of the tourism things like visit a museum, the Tower, the old Kings palace, Especially now if you go in April , you may even see the cherry bloom time, its supposed to be beautiful.

All I can say about the "being mute thing" is that for some reason I did not let it affect me at all! Actually I was in a weird state of happiness because I knew right after the surgery that my old voice was gone and I would have a female voice when it comes back, so I was happy, even being mute. Weirdly at that time I already acted as if I already had my female voice, I bacame more self confident and more daring in terms of being feminine. It did not matter if I had to type things on the phone or point and sign stuff - people are really really nice to you if they realize you cannot speak, especially in Korea people were really very polite and no one looked at me oddly or ignored me - on the contrary, they kept talking and tried their best to interpret my signs. I believe its also because they have tourists from other countries at least in Meayongdons an gInsadong and most of them don't speak Korean and many maybe not even English, so people may be more used to relying on nonverbal communications. I actually had MORE issues on the day we arrived , I was still able to talk and we tried to find a restaurant that was still open - most could not speak english and so we sort of faile dmiserably because we relied so much on the language, while after the surgery I knew language was not an option anyways anymore and funnily that mindset changed the way I communicated and actually improved my communication with those not good or unable to speak english anyways.

There is absolutley NO need to stick in the hotel for the time until going home. After 1-2 days you can do everything in terms of sightseeing that Seoul offers and enjoy the stay instead of making it a purely medical tourism journey.

[Denjin]

Thanks, Anja.  You're always so helpful - it's very much appreciated.

OMG, my surgery is in a week... Amazing how quickly time seems to pass sometimes. :O  Two questions for people:

• How much availability it there in Seoul for vegetarian food?  Can I get dishes with tofu in them easily enough (for protein), etc.?
• I'll be staying at Phil House.  Is there a humidifier available or should I get one whilst there? My throat doesn't handle dry air well now, and imagine it'll be even worse after surgery.  I'm getting a nebuliser for home, but don't really want to carry one with and explain it to customs.

[anjaq]

Vegetarian food should be no problem, meat is expensive anyways - but maybe you should check with Jessie on the examination day and tell her (if it is not in the folder anyways) to write you a card in Korean that says "Do you have any vegetarian dishes?" and such, so you can show them in restaurants later on. At Phil House of course you also have the option to just cook yourself - across the place with the subway station there are a few food markets that sell all kinds of vegetables and also Tofu is sold, I believe. Just its all in Korean, so thats why I said to let Jessie write some things up for you. Maybe also "Do you have Tofu"?

Phil House does not have humidifiers. I did the low tech version and just set up one of their clothes drying racks and "stole" a few more towels and let the soaked towels sit there, always making them wet every couple of hours. But I hear there are great USB-powered little humidifiers available now that you can put on top of a standard water Bottle

[ReDucks]

The airway is not noticeably restricted as the tie take place out of the way of the air path and is not over 50% of the cord length. If the tie is greater than 50% it alters the quality of the voice.

The tie as you call it is directly in the path of the airflow, which is why many are getting a card or med alert bracelet saying narrowed airway in case of intubation. 

If I wasn't clear before, I only really notice it when I am really trying for air like panting after a tough run or taking fast breaths like when singing.  In addition to feeling the restriction in airflow, I can also hear it.

[Dena]

The tie as you call it is directly in the path of the airflow, which is why many are getting a card or med alert bracelet saying narrowed airway in case of intubation. 

If I wasn't clear before, I only really notice it when I am really trying for air like panting after a tough run or taking fast breaths like when singing.  In addition to feeling the restriction in airflow, I can also hear it.

I had a 50/40 tie. The shorter cord was about 50% and the longer cord was at 40%. You can see the surgical air way tube in both pictures as well as the upper edge of the cords.

[Denjin]

In terms of Internet access, did anyone get one of those KT (Olleh) routers?  Seems like not a bad option if you're only there 10 days or so, and get unlimited data.  http://roaming.kt.com/rental/eng/product/wibro.asp  I saw cheaper ones, but this has lots of data.

Aside from potentially reserving the router to pick up at Incheon when I arrive, is there anything else smart to do in advance?

[anjaq]

Personally I do not feel the airway obstruction. The airway after the surgery is not really smaller as that of other women, but it may be unknown at first. I still get really really great exhalation values in health tests, so it does not seem to cause much issue. But this may be different if you have a longer suture or if the suture is more tight (which I suspect it is for those with a bigger pitch gain maybe?).

Regarding WiFi and stuff - Seoul has a lot of free WiFi places in Restaurants and Hotels, but if your happiness depends on being in the net all the time, I would get one of these Olleh thingies. Basically if you have WiFi on your smartphone, you just have to pay the fee for the useage as there are WiFi access points all over the city, in the subway and on many streets. If you plan to go in less frequented areas, maybe it makes sense to rent one of these mobile routers, but I think for 95% of the places you most likely are going to be in Seoul, there is either free WiFi or an Olleh access point installed somewhere.

[Denjin]

Thanks again, Anja.

I got a router for 10 days, as it only worked out to like £35 in total which is insanely cheap for unlimited data, etc. 

On a separate note, is it better to post my surgery experience in this thread or to create another?  It doesn't matter much to me either way, I just want to do whatever is more helpful for future people.

[Denjin]

Korea seems pretty nice so far.  It definitely gives me a sort of Japan vibe... the language totally does my head in.  I swear it tricks me into thinking I'm hearing Japanese but then I can't make out any words (obviously).  I've not had another language do this.  So strange.

What did everyone do for food?  I'm not a huge fan of living off western food, but apparently they rarely speak English at the Korean restaurants... the local ones anyway. Perhaps I should just buy some stuff and cook it at Philhouse and then look up good restaurants in Seoul (like famous dolsot bibimbap, etc.).

Philhouse was pretty easy to get to from the airport (took the A REX, then subway 4 and 5).  Subway to Yeson (near Apgujeongrodeo I think) looks not so bad, either.  How cheap is a taxi?  Looks like 1300 KRW each way on subway, which seems crazy cheap to me.

Tomorrow is the exam and day after is the big day. Hope everyone else is doing well!

[anjaq]

Taxi is not expensive. I think we paid like $15 from Yeson to Phil House. For daily things I preferred subway as it is much cheaper, but on the return to Phil House after surgery, I preferred Taxi. I had a friend with my, she was looking for a Taxi - if you travel alone, ask Jessie before the surgery to help you out with calling a taxi after surgery. I think they are a bit more expensive if you let them call instead of standing at the road, but so what - on that day you spend $7000 on surgery costs, what does it matter if there is $1, $10 or $20 needed to bring you into your room without hassle. I was so drowsy, I would not have cared if it cost $50 even - but it depends, if you are all up and running and feel great, you can always also take the subway - time difference is not big as traffic in rush hour in Seoul is crazy and the subway is usually faster than the taxi then.

I never cooked at Phil House, even though its possible. But there are a lot of restaurants in the area - often they have pictures of the food they offer, sometimes they have english titles - Without speech (or without speaking Korean), the simplest way was basically to take a photo with the smartphone and show it to the waiter - or point on the picture on the menu. In the old Yeson thread there were some restarurant tips buried somewhere - I personally do not remember them though, but if you go to Insadong, there are some nice looking restarurants all over the place serving traditional Korean food - sadly the really good korean stuff is not so cheap - The table-BBQ is great but usually starts at $20 or more. We did just eat cheaper food (fried chiecken and stuff like that) for daily meals and then had 3 days on the trip where we went out for some more special food and just spent some more money to celebrate the whole journey

[Vii]

Since this seems to be somewhat of a general thread, even though I've been to Remacle instead of Yeson, I'll just leave my question here.
Far as I'm aware I'm supposed to use inhaled steroids after the surgery, but the lady at the pharmacy only gave me sodium chloride to be used with an inhalator. Now I'm a bit panicking what damage the lack of steroids could have done, as I'm 4 days post op and haven't had access to them, and probably won't for a 5th day either.
Could anyone educate me what these things are for? Can I maybe substitute them with Ibuprofen until I can pick up the right medication at a pharmacy?

This thread has me a bit baffled at how little communication I had with Prof. Remacle. I'm picking up so much information that would've otherwise just been thought of as given. It was near impossible to ask him about any details of the procedure, and when I was concerned about my frequent coughing post-op he just told me to not worry about it. Heck he even seemed surprised I didn't try to speak.
What I picked up in this thread is that coughing seems to be a lot more concerning than Remacle's "no worries" makes it sounds like. Is he too confident in his laser? Am I overthinking things? I've had to cough about half a dozen times daily, ones I just can't help and I'm in full panic mode lately.

[Denjin]

Thanks again, Anja.  I'll probably get a taxi home tomorrow, unless I feel amazing, which sounds unlikely.  As for food, I'll definitely need to go out and about soon and find some.  Dying for some bibimbap. One thing about Seoul - they don't seem to stare much here, really.  I notice a few glances, but hell that happens back home too.

Also, saw Dr. Kim today and met Jessie.  She's amazing, and Dr. Kim seems very thorough and takes time to explain things to you and also genuinely seems to care. 

Apparently I have shorter than average? vocal cords, but also a tremor and one cord is thicker than the other.  Lucky me, I need the botox shot.
Lower Pitch reading: 167 Hz average
Higher Pitch reading: 178 Hz average
Lowest 'usable' pitch:  138 Hz
Don't remember the highest, sorry

I've had my trained voice for so long, I'm sure it's lower than 167 untrained, but I don't believe it's massively lower.

Vii
I wish I could help, but hopefully others can.  However, it might fit a Remacle topic better as Yeson seems a bit different based on what I see in your story.  For example, you ask about steroids, which are a strong anti inflammatory.  However, I don't think other voice doctors do the spray you've been asked to use...so, what impact it may have had is hard to say. Ibuprofen is a mild blood thinner - not sure if that's a bad thing at 5 days or not (not a medical professional)?

Also can't comment much on the last two paragraphs as I've not had my surgery yet.  However, Dr. Kim's office is quite helpful, but I can only vouch for pre-surgery at this stage. *hugs* Hope you get some info!

[Vii]

Odd, I was sure steroids were common treatment.
Based on this perceived lax aftercare I'm starting to be bothered that I didn't go to Korea instead. They also sort of glued my wound shut after the trachea shave. There's no sutures or anything, but the wound is HUGE. If that's not gonna leave a big scar, I don't know what does.

It seems you girls get to experience cough medication that actually works too. Meanwhile I sit here with basically maple syrup. Tastes nice at least...

Nice to hear you're having a good experience with Dr. Kim though, hope all goes well.