Do NB people feel Gender Dysphoria differently from other Trans people?

[T90]

I realise that Gender Dysphoria can manifest itself in many different ways, but I was wondering if it's a different experience altogether for NB people.

For myself, as someone who wishes to look, sound, and pass as completely female but not change my male body, I often find it incredibly distressing (and Dysphoria inducing) that HRT would be a difficult option for me as I don't wish to change my sex. I have my first appointment with a psychologist coming up in the next month or so, and I feel that Gender Dysphoria is very different for me than for someone wishing to undergo SRS.

[suzifrommd]

Not sure what you mean by "HRT being a difficult option". Are you saying that you want HRT but you're having personal qualms? Or is the medical community putting obstacles in your way?

To answer your first question, my dysphoria was very different from most other people. I didn't hate my male parts (but would have exchanged them in a minute for female parts if they had been offered). I didn't hate being male, I just really wished I'd been born female.

I did get HRT. No one gave me any trouble. I did have to get past a few incompetent and outright hostile mental health practitioners before I found the right treatment. But I was easily able to get HRT when I wanted it - the incompetence and the hostility didn't stand in the way. When I told my therapist I was ready for hormones, no issues were raised.

Non-binary people are every bit as entitled as binary trans folk to transition and present as they wish, whether that means hormones, surgery, both, or neither. Please don't let anyone tell you differently.

[T90]

Not sure what you mean by "HRT being a difficult option".

I meant that while I wish to appear and pass as female, I really don't want to ever develop breasts or have other areas of my anatomy shrink. If there was a type of hormone replacement that would just feminize my face, hair, and skin then I would do it in a heartbeat. I think I probably identify most closely with the term Genderqueer, so for me I fell uncomfortable with my gender and not so much with my sex.

[suzifrommd]

I meant that while I wish to appear and pass as female, I really don't want to ever develop breasts or have other areas of my anatomy shrink. If there was a type of hormone replacement that would just feminize my face, hair, and skin then I would do it in a heartbeat. I think I probably identify most closely with the term Genderqueer, so for me I fell uncomfortable with my gender and not so much with my sex.

Ah. That makes sense. Maybe it was the opposite for me. I really wanted a female body but I didn't want to have to live a female life, though somehow during the whole process that changed.

[Allison Wunderland]

Let me quote my colleague, Dr. Judy, MD . . .  (She's a forensic chemist/pathology, retired) Dr. Judy is a "sof' butch lesbian" -- first time I met her, I thought she was cis-male.

"You're no more female physiologically, than I am male. We shouldn't be required to tweak our endocrine systems to be who we already are!"

And so, take a look at my signature -- We need to change social attitudes, not our endocrine system.

Here's a "scale" for figuring out where you sit:

Cis-F 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 Cis-M

I sit at 1 or 2 on the right of Zero. I understand perfectly well that I'm  born male. But I feel like I lost the gender crap shoot. I don't like what I got handed to me.

(Childhood sexual abuse, uncle on me, for years . . . This complicates my perspective. Naked in the mirror I look like my abuser, and it's threatening. 100% service connected, PTSD, for childhood sex abuse, aggravated my military service.)


Physically, wishing the genitals would go away, along w/ beard, 2ndary male body hair. Heterosexual (cis women), but at 67, not sexually active with others. I am not willing to change who I am so I can "pass" as a fairly ugly female. I wish I could be Kiera Knightly . . .  I know lots and lots of cis-F who wish they looked like Kiera Knightly . . .

Brass tacks honest here . . . I want the full-boat, not a "transition" . . . I want periods, risk of pregnancy, real mammaries (b cup would be nice).

And so my "solution" for all this is that I am open about being "trans" (as in "transcendent") and I move to the middle, ('Mahu" in Hawaiian culture, although this idea gets bastardized on Google.)

My "mantra" -- guide lines . . . "authentic" "integrated" "ME" . . . I'm not going to "become someone else." Not going to change my name,  (I'd like to get the "M" off my ID).

We wear (seamlessly) both gender clothing . . . JUST LIKE THE CIS-F LOCALLY . . .

Recreational beach casual, cargo shorts, shorts, beach sandals, tank tops, T's, button shirts, earrings (6 lobe piercings), shoulder-length hair worn pulled back or let down.

This results in a sort of "gender neutral" look, obviously "cis-M" but neutral enough that no one notices that essentially everything I'm wearing is "women's" clothing. (Lot's of political assertion on this point.)

NO ONE NOTICES, but also it's perfectly apparent to anyone who pays attention that I'm NOT "one of the boys." Not "sissy" or "femme" -- I own/ride a Harley full-dress, guns, knives, active recreation/exercise --

JUST LIKE MY CIS-F SISTERS ! ! !

I'm not broken, and don't need to jump through a litany of medical/legal hoops to be ME.

We need to CHANGE  the expectation of the hetero-normative dyad.

Wish I were cis-F, 

Being cis-M is sexually threatening for me, on acct. of the sexual abuse.

What we have learned from all this, in the past six months and I've been dealing for 65 yrs at least. What we have learned is that there are more choices for us than "cis F and cis M" --

Women cross the gender boundary in clothing all the time, women's fashion adopts a lot of "boy style" fashion for women.  Women can wear men's clothing, but it is taboo for men to wear women's clothing.

THIS NEEDS TO CHANGE --

(dresses/skirts are about Patriarchal sexual access, and a DIFFERENT political issue for another thread.)

Men need to be allowed culturally to express the aspects of their ID which don't fit the "Male dyad" -- Lotsa different kinds of males out there, and females . . . Pretty limited gender expression, but it's changing.

I looked at Finasteride and HRT, even bilateral orchiectomy (surgical castration), in order to mediate the "threat" I feel with testosterone, male pattern body hair, penis, testes . . .

Dr. Judy warns, "Endocrine balance is delicate. You don't want to mess with that balance to become who you already are."

We don't need medical intervention to liberate ourselves and become who we are, who we always have been. There's a broad, safe, liberated, joyous "MIDDLE" in gender presentation that is open to those of us who search.

I still wish, continually . . . wish I were female.

[Cadence Jean]

I meant that while I wish to appear and pass as female, I really don't want to ever develop breasts or have other areas of my anatomy shrink. If there was a type of hormone replacement that would just feminize my face, hair, and skin then I would do it in a heartbeat. I think I probably identify most closely with the term Genderqueer, so for me I fell uncomfortable with my gender and not so much with my sex.

I believe there to be specific procedures and drugs to assist you with changing your body into something you're comfortable with.  I know there is a model who appears completely feminine from the shoulders up, but has not undergone hormone therapy.  I wish I could remember her name...she went to Dr. Mayer for FFS.  So, it would be possible for you to get FFS without hormone therapy - that would feminize your face.

As far as having feminine hair, the hormone that causes male pattern baldness is called DHT.  There are drugs on the market, like Dutasteride, that you could take which have a low probability of impacting your mammary glands or genitals.  It will prevent your body from converting testosterone to DHT.  I started taking DHT long before estrogen, and I noticed very quickly that my hair thickened up and my points of recession didn't grow any larger.  Maybe you could see an endocrinologist or your primary care provider about getting on DHT, which may cover some of your hair concerns.  Also, if you have dark facial hair, you may  be a candidate for laser hair removal, which takes care of that.

I couldn't suggest anything about your skin, especially.  Maybe moisturize a whole lot, all over?

Just some suggestions.  Best wishes for you on your journey.

[T90]

I believe there to be specific procedures and drugs to assist you with changing your body into something you're comfortable with.  I know there is a model who appears completely feminine from the shoulders up, but has not undergone hormone therapy.  I wish I could remember her name...she went to Dr. Mayer for FFS.  So, it would be possible for you to get FFS without hormone therapy - that would feminize your face.

As far as having feminine hair, the hormone that causes male pattern baldness is called DHT.  There are drugs on the market, like Dutasteride, that you could take which have a low probability of impacting your mammary glands or genitals.  It will prevent your body from converting testosterone to DHT.  I started taking DHT long before estrogen, and I noticed very quickly that my hair thickened up and my points of recession didn't grow any larger.  Maybe you could see an endocrinologist or your primary care provider about getting on DHT, which may cover some of your hair concerns.  Also, if you have dark facial hair, you may  be a candidate for laser hair removal, which takes care of that.

I couldn't suggest anything about your skin, especially.  Maybe moisturize a whole lot, all over?

Just some suggestions.  Best wishes for you on your journey.

There's quite a few models who appear very feminine without HRT, such as Seth Atwell and Michael Nowlan, and these are people who I admire and certainly aspire to be like one day. Michael Nowlan even identifies as Genderqueer, which I think may well be how I identify too.

Thanks for all that information.  It seems there may be a number of possibilities for me then. Although I have a full head of long dark hair, hair loss would be one of my biggest worries in the future. Certainly I will mention some of the things you've mentioned once I start to see a psychologist (later this month hopefully).

[JB_Girl]

Transition and dysphoria are not tightly coupled.  I felt dysphoric decades before I did anything like begin HRT or Electrolysis or even wearing feminine clothes.  I eventually hit a wall of despair and began minimal medications.

But since gender is a mental reflection of how you internally visualize yourself.  Surgery or no surgery, endocrine balance or no endocrine change.  None of it is the issue.  "To thy own self be true, then it shall follow as the night the day, you cannot be false to anyone" or something along those lines.

I wore a dress with a beard for a while but finally had to do something about the beard or quit looking in a mirror.  I have moved from no hormones to low dose HRT to transition levels as my level of comfort with myself changed, but one thing I will never do is destroy or defame the person who taught me much about life, much about honesty, and much about courage.  To my way of thinking to destroy the village to save it is idiotic.  To destroy or deny the human who lived in a male package just because the package is now mostly female would be equally foolish.

Nice to be here,

Call me Minga.

[Torquill]

I'm dysphoric about specific things.  After bra shopping this afternoon (ugh) I'm pretty convinced that I want breast reduction surgery, because large breasts really don't fit what I feel like my body should look like.  I'm a little frustrated by my jawline.  But I love my shoulders, I love my butt, and I'm actually pretty happy with my undercarriage (it performs well for me).

I've always been the person I am, I just didn't admit it until this year.  To that end, I'm used to being me in this package.  Some of my dysphoria is just a desire to have a body which people won't misgender all the time -- I run up against hard limits on my presentation, and it leads to distress when people call me "miss".  But that's not all of it.

I think I may experience dysphoria differently than many binary trans people, if nothing else because I have the a la carte version, rather than the whole menu version.  I have only a few things I want to change, and the rest can stay as it always has been, even though it's associated with a gender I no longer claim.

--Sam

[Tessa James]

I so appreciate the views shared from the NB perspectives here.  It is refreshing to understand other narratives that don't necessarily fit the classic model.  I think the model narrative has been reinforced historically because we learned that there were certain points we needed to hit to ensure the gatekeepers would let us in.  Many would apply but precious few were chosen and they fit the early models for people who would likely pass as cis gender.

That is changing.  We know of many people now who may or may not accept the labels but do transition in some way.  I think of our former Mayor of Silverton Oregon who chose to feminize years ago with some surgery but no HRT.  Other examples are noted in earlier posts.  One size still doesn't fit all but we should still have access to the health care we need.  Gender dysphoria is a term i learned a few years ago but a feeling I've experienced for the majority of my life.  Why should some individuals dysphoria be considered any less legitimate than another's?? 

We get no special merit badge for the type or duration of our suffering and pain.  But we clearly know how to jump through hoops to get what we need.  

[Lady Smith]

I found that I couldn't bear the way testosterone twisted my mind to the point of feeling like I was going crazy so HRT and an 'orchi' were the only way to go for me.  BUT then on the other hand I had very low testosterone for years as I was growing up and it was only when I was older that my T levels began to impact badly on my sense of self.
Much of my dysphoria seems to have been centred around knowing that I wasn't male, but 'fleeing' too far into femme territory in order to rid myself of the aspects of maleness I'd come to hate if not outright despise.

To pick up on JB Girl's metaphor I think I was trying very hard to burn down the village in order to save it, but fortunately it looks like I haven't done myself too much damage overall and it will be possible for me to heal and recover.

'Incompetent and outright hostile mental health practitioners', - yes Suzi it's amazing just how many of them there are isn't it.  Unfortunately it's not like getting your car repaired where you can go back and demand they fix it properly if they mess up. The incompetent/hostile ones are more than happy to take your money no matter how useless they might be.

[phoenix633]

Well for me. I definitely want chest surgery. I don't want to appear at all like a woman but not too masculine either. I currently just look like a 14 year old boy. It think maybe I'd be okay without T if I could pass for the 25 year old I am and socialize with people my age without them instantly reading me as a kid. I like mens clothes and mens hair. I'd like my voice to be deeper and face to change but I don't really want facial hair. I'm okay with getting body hair and even facial hair sometimes sounds cool, I'd probably still decide to go clean shaven. I want to stay thin and not appear too masculine in my personality and dress but still look like a guy in his 20's. So I am definitely either leaning towards male or male but kinda in the middle. The idea of looking like a dude who is bulky and has facial hair and look like very much a man is uncomfortable to me. So I would guess a FTM on the far masculine end would want to look like that and not be afraid of the hormones making them too masculine. I'm a thin person with a high metabolism and very strict healthy unprocessed diet and very active life style so I'm hoping I remain thin. And as far as beard, I would shave it and maybe if I got a lot of money get it removed with lazer hair removal or something. Or maybe I'd like facial hair. I feel like if I shaved every day it wouldn't bother me. I don't want the look of a beard but don't mind stubble. I feel once I look like a man I would be more comfortable doing feminine things. I also find my balance through ways besides appearance. Like as far as how I interact, I definitely have a nurturing feminine side. I like to talk about emotions and stuff. I want to take dance classes in the future. I want to appear like I said, instead of a thin kinda adrogenous female like I do now a guy who is also thin, clean shaven and no too masculine in clothing and mannerisms. I find a weird mix. I like typically masculine things like climbing trees and fixing things etc. and also a lot of typically female things. So I kinda feel like I can relate to both men and women and everyone inbetween. But at the end of the day I feel like I am not male or female but have always deeply desired a male body. But trying to find a balance physically is tough.

[Allison Wunderland]

Well for me. I definitely want chest surgery. I don't want to appear at all like a woman but not too masculine either. I currently just look like a 14 year old boy. It think maybe I'd be okay without T if I could pass for the 25 year old I am and socialize with people my age without them instantly reading me as a kid. I like mens clothes and mens hair. I'd like my voice to be deeper and face to change but I don't really want facial hair. I'm okay with getting body hair and even facial hair sometimes sounds cool, I'd probably still decide to go clean shaven. I want to stay thin and not appear too masculine in my personality and dress but still look like a guy in his 20's. So I am definitely either leaning towards male or male but kinda in the middle. The idea of looking like a dude who is bulky and has facial hair and look like very much a man is uncomfortable to me. So I would guess a FTM on the far masculine end would want to look like that and not be afraid of the hormones making them too masculine. I'm a thin person with a high metabolism and very strict healthy unprocessed diet and very active life style so I'm hoping I remain thin. And as far as beard, I would shave it and maybe if I got a lot of money get it removed with lazer hair removal or something. Or maybe I'd like facial hair. I feel like if I shaved every day it wouldn't bother me. I don't want the look of a beard but don't mind stubble. I feel once I look like a man I would be more comfortable doing feminine things. I also find my balance through ways besides appearance. Like as far as how I interact, I definitely have a nurturing feminine side. I like to talk about emotions and stuff. I want to take dance classes in the future. I want to appear like I said, instead of a thin kinda adrogenous female like I do now a guy who is also thin, clean shaven and no too masculine in clothing and mannerisms. I find a weird mix. I like typically masculine things like climbing trees and fixing things etc. and also a lot of typically female things. So I kinda feel like I can relate to both men and women and everyone in between. But at the end of the day I feel like I am not male or female but have always deeply desired a male body. But trying to find a balance physically is tough.

Here's a view from the other side of the fence --

Cis M here -- just for the record, because LOTS of people in here talk about gender without ever designating where they started out.

Yeah, totally for sure . . . I wish I were FEMALE . . .  long legged, body hairless, nice B-cup mammaries to fill the bras I own. I wish I were able to get "tagged" as cis-F from a distance, by how I walk/stand, how the clothes drape, facia
l features.

Wish I didn't need to shave every 6 hrs. Nose to toes and it NEVER gets down to "feeling smooth" but rather only gets to "feels like a fresh shave." Would be nice to get out on the beach, bikini . . . bare, no huge knob in the pants, cleavage, no chest hair, no facial hair . . . I'd like to have periods. Yes, I hear they're a pain in the ass. Shaving is a pain in the ass.

OTOH, I own a full hawg Harley -- 900 lbs curb weight. If it tips, I can lift it back upright. I don't think I'd be able to do that on estrogen, or even finasteride to block DHT.

Not into make-up, painting my nails. I like jewelry, but not the huge/gawdy stuff. I suspect if I looked "hot" on all the other points, I might paint my nails.

Besides the Harley, I have a John Deere (tractor and lawnmower), chain saw, guns, cannons, knife collection . . .

Lots of behavior out there that is non-gender specific: Hiking, biking, bird watching, kayak, archery, fishing . . .

-- and a wardrobe full of heavy-duty recreational gear (boots, pants, jackets, polar fleece)

-- and a wardrobe full of prom-dresses, skirts, tops, lingerie . . .  I have some dolls, stuffed animals. I understand clothing, clothing design/materials better than most cis-F.

Point being, most people have broad spectrum interests and behaviors. Lots of feelings are not gender-specific. And lots of "gender specific" traits should not be.

I expect that were I female, I'd be wearing a lot of cis-M stuff. Sex is one thing. Gender presentation is something else.

[nicole99]

Hey T90,

I'm not sure NB's do experience it differently.

If you do experience it in a different way, how do you feel about it? Are you worried about your psycs reaction? Being taken seriously and validated? I think those are the important questions here.

[captains]

Ah. That makes sense. Maybe it was the opposite for me. I really wanted a female body but I didn't want to have to live a female life, though somehow during the whole process that changed.

Your posts often resonate with me, Suzi, but I think this is the first time I've ever my own complex gender-and-sex-feelings laid out so succinctly. I'm the same, but from the other direction. I can feel my attachment to my female social position slowly eroding, but if I were to magically wake up in a cis male body under the condition that I wasn't allowed to tell a single soul, I would be perfectly happy.

[boheme]

Women cross the gender boundary in clothing all the time, women's fashion adopts a lot of "boy style" fashion for women.  Women can wear men's clothing, but it is taboo for men to wear women's clothing.

THIS NEEDS TO CHANGE

Absolutely!

"You're no more female physiologically, than I am male. We shouldn't be required to tweak our endocrine systems to be who we already are!"

And so, take a look at my signature -- We need to change social attitudes, not our endocrine system.

Dr. Judy warns, "Endocrine balance is delicate. You don't want to mess with that balance to become who you already are."

We don't need medical intervention to liberate ourselves and become who we are, who we always have been. There's a broad, safe, liberated, joyous "MIDDLE" in gender presentation that is open to those of us who search.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the majority of my dysphoria about being perceived as a "man" is indeed about socialisation. Most of the time, I actually feel completely fine living as a member of my birth gender, except of course when I am around people who love telling others how they or someone else is so much of a "man"/"woman" because they do or enjoy some arbitrary, essentialist thing x . Sometimes I wonder, would I even socially transition at all if it weren't for the binary? I've been thinking about this a lot recently, and I always end up settling on, "probably not".

With that said, I can honestly say I have never felt happier in my body (at least, not since the dearth that was male puberty started) than I have been after starting HRT. The way my testosterone levels have plummeted; the way my skin has softened; the way my body is changing in ways that I had thought would be forever impossible for me... This still, despite the fact that nearly everyone in my work and social circles is completely oblivious to the changes that are taking place (a source of constant bemusement!)

And I guess that's the thing. Would my life be endlessly less complicated were I able to simply express the feminine aspects of my personality openly, without fear of ridicule, segregation and discrimination? Oh my, would it ever! But even if this were the case, and I could actually truly live simply as a person, not as a gender, would I still modify my body with hormones and surgery to bring it as close as possible to the female archetype? I've been thinking about this a lot too recently, and I've realised that the answer to this question -- at least, for me -- is, "absolutely".

[nicole99]

My dysphoria was often such a physical thing. I don't believe socialisation had anything to do with that aspect of it. Nobody required me to tweak my endocrine system or have surgery, I never saw it as a way of becoming myself. But I desired it. I wanted it and I needed it. My body is mine to shape as I see fit, and shape it I have. You don't change it to be who you are - you change it to feel better, to be safer, to find peace or acceptance. All good things.

Telling people to not change their endocrine system is taking away their agency over their own bodies. It is based on the idea that being able to modify out bodies is somehow a mutilation.

If you need medical intervention, if you want to change your endocrine system or have surgery to feel better then this is something that should be an option. Also I don't care what society says, I love that I grew killer tits. They make me happy. 

[Allison Wunderland]

Sure, there's not a clear line that defines "corrective" medical intervention. Some see surg. as corrective, some see "Fleischsalat" (German). One-eigth the objective dose of SSRI (Zoloft) for less than a week put me in the ER. Hormones play a role here too. My personal hormone equilbros is pretty skittish.

I pierced my ears. No cartalige, no gauges, no tats. That's my limit. No psych meds, no HRT. I think about bi-lat. orchi all the time, electrolysis . . . still thinking.

But at 67, meds & surg are stress-city. Besides, at 67 we all begin to look neuter.

[Lady Smith]

Besides, at 67 we all begin to look neuter.

That's soooo true!  In many ways it's great being past my 'use by' date and being an old lady.  I can wear what I please and do what i please because I'm free of the 'meat market' and being happy and single is just sooo good.

[Claire]

I know this is not new but I guess we all need to discover it for our selves. There are so many pieces to this and they all have their own scale. Wanting to be male or female. NOT wanting to be male or female. Wanting to be seen as male or female. NOT wanting to be seen as male. Wanting to feel male or female. Etc... We all sit on these many many scales in different spots. For some people, they align. For some they kind of align. For some none of them align. And for some like me, where I am on each scale seems to move around independently.


Dori.