Caitlyn Jenner's Conservative Views Worry Her New Transgender Friends

[Tessa James]

So I'm going to stick to being conservative and work on reaching out to my fellow republicans.

While you are sticking to your guns I can only applaud your also reaching out and helping other people understand the wealth of diversity that is all around them.

[Dee Marshall]

Most of my family are pretty conservative. I've gotten overwhelmingly positive reactions from all the ones I've told in person and I'm crafting a Facebook coming out post (see other thread) to come out to the rest. I'll educate southeastern Michigan if some of you can take other parts of the country.

[Paige]

I came out on the largest gun forum on the Internet with 400,000 members(most very conservative, as the site is dedicate to the AR15) and the reaction was overwhelming positive, and I had several other conservative trans women join in my thread, and hundreds of private messages from other trans people and friends and family and supporters of trans people.  I came out because I got sick of the trans bashing threads by certain people, and my thread ended up being over 4 times longer than the longest anti trans thread. So I'm going to stick to being conservative and work on reaching out to my fellow republicans.

You know hearing that Erin made my day.  With all the negative out there, it's so nice to hear about the positive transgender examples.  Good luck with your efforts.  By the way your avatar picture is amazing.

Take care,
Paige

[ErinS]

You know hearing that Erin made my day.  With all the negative out there, it's so nice to hear about the positive transgender examples.  Good luck with your efforts.  By the way your avatar picture is amazing.

Take care,
Paige

Thank you; I actually had FFS with Dr. Mayer yesterday. 

But the thing with most conservatives is they simply don't like being lectured, guilt tripped, or threatened into doing or thinking anything, so quite a bit of the activist repertoire actually backfires. I've made a difference just by being open and showing I'm a decent and respectable person, and it's worked with the conservatives I've interacted with in a may other methods won't. It's one thing to sit in a cafe in Berkely with friends and discuss topics like intersectionalism, but going to flyover country and trying to talk to mr. And mrs. Middle America about self-fart-sniffing academic esoterica is only going to result in their eyes glazing over as they start to wonder if they've forgotten any dry cleaning. Know your audience.

[suzifrommd]

 

Let's please keep our discourse respectful. People are prone to take offense at stereotypical descriptions of the political positions.

[Serverlan]

This has been an enlightening thread.

[ErinS]

Let's please keep our discourse respectful. People are prone to take offense at stereotypical descriptions of the political positions.

My posts are often best read wryly with tongue firmly in cheek.    nonetheless it's a serious discussion that needs to be held, so I'll ignore the pain pill fueled desire to make witty puns and rephrase slightly. 

[Paige]

Thank you; I actually had FFS with Dr. Mayer yesterday. 

But the thing with most conservatives is they simply don't like being lectured, guilt tripped, or threatened into doing or thinking anything, so quite a bit of the activist repertoire actually backfires. I've made a difference just by being open and showing I'm a decent and respectable person, and it's worked with the conservatives I've interacted with in a may other methods won't. It's one thing to sit in a cafe in Berkely with friends and discuss topics like intersectionalism, but going to flyover country and trying to talk to mr. And mrs. Middle America about self-fart-sniffing academic esoterica is only going to result in their eyes glazing over as they start to wonder if they've forgotten any dry cleaning. Know your audience.

Hi Erin,

You do realize the preaching comes from both sides?  People on the left are just as likely to turn away when someone preaches to them about freedom to bare arms, libertarianism, tea party politics, that global warming is a conspiracy, etc.  It goes both ways.

Take care,
Paige

[ErinS]

Hi Erin,

You do realize the preaching comes from both sides?  People on the left are just as likely to turn away when someone preaches to them about freedom to bare arms, libertarianism, tea party politics, that global warming is a conspiracy, etc.  It goes both ways.

Take care,
Paige

Sure; however that's only tangentially related to the specific topic I was discussing. I'm discussing more of the manner of engagement, and not the desirability of engagement in itself.  There's nothing wrong with advocating for something, but it is important to adjust to your audience and do it in such a fashion that the worst case is the person is simply unconvinced instead of driven firmer in their beliefs. This requires taking the high road at times, but that's always important any way because sometimes the person you're trying to convince is actually standing in the audience and not the person you're engagin with. 

That conservative forum I'm on? A couple years ago an openly trans member started advocating trans topics. Unfortunately she was extremely obnoxious, very dislikeable, and just plain rude, and she was dogpiled and ran off very quickly. Compared to my coming out thread, which was received positively to the point several senior site staff PM'd me to thank me for how I handled the thread, because they want to start moving towards being more receptive of lgbt people. I made every effort to turn the other cheek to the occasional rude comment, and very quickly other members started dogpiling those people on my behalf, simply because of the way I conducted myself when insulted. Those obnoxious people are always going to be out there, just don't let yourself get baited.

[gennee]

There are people of many political persuasions on this site.

[Serverlan]

I'm discussing more of the manner of engagement...

I get the impression Paige is making the same point, that people of any political persuasion can be in your face about their particular ideology.

[ErinS]

I get the impression Paige is making the same point, that people of any political persuasion can be in your face about their particular ideology.

Oh absolutely. The narrowly specific topic I was discussing however, was "how to engage people on the Right in a way with the best chance of success" And observing that, ironically, they can also be more tolerant at times of ideological differences than those on the left(I've gotten more flack from liberals for being a gunowner than I've gotten from conservatives for being trans) It's possible to get conservatives to turn positive towards trans issues; I know because I've done it.

And as for the "in your face" style of advocacy, the behavior and incidents that I was more referring to are the Mozilla CEO being fired for once opposing gay marriage and the bakery in oregon getting sued over not baking a cake. Frankly, no one should be fired over their opinion opposing gay marriage any more than someone fired for being gay, and the bakery deal reflects horribly on the lgbt community and make us looks like the fascists some claim we are, not to mention trivializes the actual serious issues like access to housing employment and medical care.

[Serverlan]

the Mozilla CEO being fired for once opposing gay marriage... no one should be fired over their opinion opposing gay marriage any more than someone fired for being gay.

If it were only about Eich's personal opinion, I might agree. But in this case, Eich was pressured to step down as Mozilla CEO (a company that prides itself on its policy of inclusiveness and diversity) because he made a donation to a group that actively opposed the legalisation of gay marriage. So, yeah, I see a difference between a CEO of Mozilla funding opponents of gay marriage and that same CEO merely harbouring personal opinions on gay marriage (which I otherwise wouldn't give a damn about).

The same is true for the bakers, who are are of course entitled to be bigots if they choose to be. However, the moment their opinions dictated which customers they'd serve, they opened themselves up to trouble. I can't believe anyone thinks it's OK for a business to not serve a customer based on whatever weird prejudice the business owner holds.

[ErinS]

If it were only about Eich's personal opinion, I might agree. But in this case, Eich was pressured to step down as Mozilla CEO (a company that prides itself on its policy of inclusiveness and diversity) because he made a donation to a group that actively opposed the legalisation of gay marriage. So, yeah, I see a difference between a CEO of Mozilla funding opponents of gay marriage and that same CEO merely harbouring personal opinions on gay marriage (which I otherwise wouldn't give a damn about).

The same is true for the bakers, who are are of course entitled to be bigots if they choose to be. However, the moment their opinions dictated which customers they'd serve, they opened themselves up to trouble. I can't believe anyone thinks it's OK for a business to not serve a customer based on whatever weird prejudice the business owner holds.

My opinion includes political donations, and IMO it's totally disgusting he was fired over it. In fact CA law specifically protects from employer retaliation due to participation in political activities, and it's particularly dangerous in his case because the donation was made back when opposition to gay marriage was popular to the point the ban won. Do I have to explain the dangers of a state of affairs where you may receive future punishment for a mainstream opinion you hold today that eventually loses favor?

As for the bakers, it's stupid for them to turn away a paying customer but also not remotely as stupid as the gay couple that pushed the issue until the point they make lgbt people look like fascists and trivialize and distract from more important issues. That's a perfect example of a case where the juice wasn't worth the squeeze.

There's also a growing movement in this country to not only win the argument, but destroy the lives and careers of anyone holding a non-approved political opinion, and it absolutely infuriates me to no end and is no way to protect and preserve a free Western society, and I'll fight and criticize it regardless of its political origins.

[Serverlan]

I'll fight and criticize it regardless of its political origins.

Everybody's fighting and criticizing.

[ErinS]

Everybody's fighting and criticizing.

Reasonable people can disagree reasonably, like we are.  See, no insults, doxing attempts, or attempts to ruin each others lives and careers; just like it should be.

[BenKenobi]

If i remember right, it wasnt that the bakery refused service, it's that they posted personal information about the couple. Similar to the McDonald's coffee incident there's always more to the story.

[ErinS]

If i remember right, it wasnt that the bakery refused service, it's that they posted personal information about the couple. Similar to the McDonald's coffee incident there's always more to the story.

That is correct, and the entire situation is actually rather convoluted. it started out a relatively minor thing, and spiraled into this enormous ball of idiocy that's very difficult to cover
with typical soundbite journalism without making the gay couple look like the bad guys, because all people hear is a 100k+ fine for not baking a cake. And if people get 100k fines for not baking us(lgbt people)cakes, how discriminated against can we really be? And does it mean all the serious problems with employment and medical care discrimination are now solved? I've tried walking people through it to understand all the issues, but I ultimately just keep throwing my hands up and wishing it never happened. 

At the end of the day there was dignity in blacks fighting and protesting for their right to vote; there's no dignity in gays complaining to mommy government to force someone to bake them sweets.

[Serverlan]

At the end of the day there was dignity in blacks fighting and protesting for their right to vote; there's no dignity in gays complaining to mommy government to force someone to bake them sweets.

Yes, it's all about dignity. Dignity to vote and dignity to expect not to be discriminated against just living your life. It's not an either or thing; both the big and the small issues are worth fighting for. It is really possible to walk and chew gum.

[suzifrommd]

At the end of the day there was dignity in blacks fighting and protesting for their right to vote; there's no dignity in gays complaining to mommy government to force someone to bake them sweets.

I'm not sure I understand this. Someone out to denigrate the civil rights movement could describe it as "blacks complaining to mommy government to force someone to serve them lunch". Why is discriminating by refusing someone service in a bakery any less evil than discriminating by refusing someone service at a whites-only lunch counter?