Susan's Place Logo

News:

According to Google Analytics 25,259,719 users made visits accounting for 140,758,117 Pageviews since December 2006

Main Menu

Does anyone else really hate the idea of forced RLE?

Started by Jean24, August 13, 2015, 03:56:56 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Jayne

When I first sought HRT in the UK it was compulsory to go through RLE, after 2 years this stupid idea was dropped.

I think RLE is cruelty almost beyond words, for those who are fortunate enough to pass RLE isn't a problem.
If like me you don't pass then RLE can be a humiliating and sometimes dangerous thing, during this time I experienced nothing of what its like to be female and everything about being an obvious target for all the nasty people that exist on this planet, I've been spat at, verbally abused and assaulted.
I did experience real life but it was a life of scorn and misery, after one year of this I started only dressing femme when going to the gender clinic. The rest of my time I wore only female clothes but kept to the more androgynous women's clothes in an attempt to be myself whilst beating the system and the therapists who would say you weren't making enough effort to present unless you had makeup on an inch thick.
  •  

AnonyMs

Quote from: iKate on August 13, 2015, 08:06:38 AM
I kind of agree with this. I think that RLE for SRS is perfectly acceptable.
I disagree.
  •  

suzifrommd

Quote from: vcjhyt on August 13, 2015, 05:38:34 AM
Maybe it would help if people realised that RLE is for them, for their own good.

OK, I'll bite. Let's put aside for the moment that it causes hardship, is coercive, and was put in place without input from us by people who have no clue what GID feels like.

How does it help us? And can you (or anyone else) prove that it helps us?

Before group A places restrictions on group B for group B's own good, the very least they should have to do is to prove it actually helps group B. Do you agree?
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
  •  

AnonyMs

Quote from: vcjhyt on August 13, 2015, 05:38:34 AM
Maybe it would help if people realised that RLE is for them, for their own good.
I'm feeling bitey too...

If I do RLE I'll be getting divorced and I've children to love and look after. No doubt I'll be totally happy apart from screwing up my life and that of my family.

Or I don't do RLE, so no HRT or SRS for me, and I kill myself.

Or I don't do RLE and I do get HRT/SRS/whatever, and I stay sane and married, though perhaps not 100% satisfied.

Hmmm... what to choose?
  •  

Jayne

Quote from: suzifrommd on August 13, 2015, 10:22:06 AM


How does it help us? And can you (or anyone else) prove that it helps us?



I'm proof that RLE can in some cases be detrimental to the patient, the problems it caused me did not go away when the requirement was dropped.
I have to battle anxiety evert time I go outside, I get frequent panic attacks on buses forcing me to get off a crowded bus and waiting for an almost empty one. I now get nervous in any crowded area.
This doesn't change me being trans it just means I have feelings that can only take so much
  •  

Laura_7

Quote from: suzifrommd on August 13, 2015, 10:22:06 AM
OK, I'll bite. Let's put aside for the moment that it causes hardship, is coercive, and was put in place without input from us by people who have no clue what GID feels like.

How does it help us? And can you (or anyone else) prove that it helps us?

Before group A places restrictions on group B for group B's own good, the very least they should have to do is to prove it actually helps group B. Do you agree?

Well since the referral to only SRS was deleted...
imo it was to quite some extent in places where complete treatment was covered... as kind of hurdle to ensure its people really meaning it...
which imo is a ) not really compassionate and b )  went too far... in many places its lifted because of possibly being held responsible if people are attacked...
  •  

Jessica Merriman

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on August 13, 2015, 08:01:25 AM
RLE before hormones = cruel and degrading practice

RLE before SRS - highly emotionally loaded topic
Totally agree Emily!

There is a medical protocol to transitioning. It is known about the moment you get on this path. If you disagree with it fine, don't transition. If you want things to change become a political lobbyist and make change happen. Most all of us have done RLE and learned a lot which led to better, healthier and more stable transitions. Fighting the system in the incorrect way will only make things worse for us. Skirting the requirements can have the same effect. If you want the current protocol and system to change then engage, don't complain. Only through doing it the right way will our community earn the right to proceed as we feel we need to.
  •  

Tessa James

RLE before HRT or surgery is arbitrary, capricious and treats us as a different class of people.  This prejudice and discrimination are wrong with no proof of benefits provided.  If you or I choose to take the time or are counseled to be certain about our decisions that's fine with me but the freedom to control our bodies should be a universally recognized right.

I worked in surgery and obstetrics for 33 years and was part of teams that did all kinds of surgery to ensure people had the breasts, erections and/or vaginoplasty they feel they needed.  Cis men are able to get viagra or testosterone without a note from a mental health therapist.  All women should be able to determine what hormones and surgery they need in consultation with their primary provider.  It is insulting and demeaning to me that someone thinks they know me and my needs better than I do.  Being transgender is not a disease and I would rather not cede any of my freedoms to choose what is best for me.

Consider the cis gender people who have multiple surgeries for cosmetic reasons and/or to improve their happiness.  Even after dozens of such surgeries there is no requirement to get a letter from a mental health therapist. 

A cisgender woman wants a breast reduction or augmentation, no problem, and it will likely be covered by insurance too.  The medical world is generally conservative and a change in practice is after precedent and proof that there is a better drug or procedure. 

It is clear to me that we are treated differently and that being transgender is still stigmatized and seen as radical and extreme by too many in a place where compassionate care should be the rule. 

I am one of those who is working to challenge and change the system from within and from outside.  I am on the third stage of appeals.  There is more than one right way to do this as one size does not fit all, that's diversity.
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
  •  

Lady Smith

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 13, 2015, 12:46:15 PM
Totally agree Emily!

There is a medical protocol to transitioning. It is known about the moment you get on this path. If you disagree with it fine, don't transition. If you want things to change become a political lobbyist and make change happen. Most all of us have done RLE and learned a lot which led to better, healthier and more stable transitions. Fighting the system in the incorrect way will only make things worse for us. Skirting the requirements can have the same effect. If you want the current protocol and system to change then engage, don't complain. Only through doing it the right way will our community earn the right to proceed as we feel we need to.

I really don't agree Jessica.  I went full time once I started HRT and I didn't have any therapist trying to tell me how to do it or passing comments about how I wasn't doing it right.  I simply got on with it which is exactly what I've been doing for the past 24 years.  My orchi surgery was entirely by informed consent because the surgeon was smart enough to recognise that someone who'd been holding down a mainstream job in a full time female role must know what they're doing.
The so-called medical protocol for transitioning is entirely based upon the medicalisation of gender which is an artificial Western concept which has caused considerable harm to many.  I'm intersex and so is my daughter so this is a fairly hot topic for me by the way.  Disagreement with the 'protocol' being a barrier to transition as you implied in your posting is exactly what I find inhumane and demeaning about the whole medical gender change industry.  I feel glad that I transitioned back before the New Zealand medical profession really started to buy into the 'protocol', because it was hard enough being me without having some money hungry therapist in private practice trying to bleed me dry before she'd let me through the 'gate'.
Nobody transitions on a whim, if you're doing it you're serious about it and the 'protocol' is just a barrier in the way on the journey to being yourself.
  •  

AnonyMs

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 13, 2015, 12:46:15 PM
Totally agree Emily!

There is a medical protocol to transitioning. It is known about the moment you get on this path. If you disagree with it fine, don't transition. If you want things to change become a political lobbyist and make change happen. Most all of us have done RLE and learned a lot which led to better, healthier and more stable transitions. Fighting the system in the incorrect way will only make things worse for us. Skirting the requirements can have the same effect. If you want the current protocol and system to change then engage, don't complain. Only through doing it the right way will our community earn the right to proceed as we feel we need to.
Hi Jessica,
I think I disagree with almost everything you just said. There's a medical protocol, but I never agreed to it, it doesn't represent my interests and since I don't have to I'm not going to follow it. I'm not afraid to admit that everyone else is wrong. There's been endless cases of the medical profession being in the wrong, and I'm confident that time will prove me right.

I don't accept the limited ways forward you're proposing. I like my one.

Call me selfish if you like but I'm looking after myself and my family; other people don't come into it and certainly not any community that I'm not even part of. I actually feel quite alone and unsupported in my views and the path I'm taking. The several people I share common views with on this site are a very tiny community, though I do love hearing from them.

I disagree agree that fighting against the system is harming the "community". I have a more positive take on the fight against injustice.

  •  

jeni

Medical protocols including RLE are not based on sound research into whether that improves outcomes. They are based on the prejudices and gut feelings of occasionally well-meaning doctors. Given that, arguments that we owe it to anyone to work within that system are not convincing. The system is, quite simply, not designed to serve our needs so much as to minimize the number of people who transition.

IMO, the only requirements for either HRT or SRS ought to be 1) persistent dysphoria/desire to transition genders, and 2) the absence of otherwise treatable causes for that dysphoria/desire. Demonstrating and documenting these does not require RLE.

RLE might be helpful for some people, but the reality is that it is not a safe option for many, many people. Requiring it endangers many people, discourages many others who would be helped by medical transition but are unwilling to risk unaided RLE, and has not been demonstrated to help anyone(*).

It is also a biased and sexist process, as it is not at all difficult to find modern examples of therapists who enforce their ideas of femininity in order to "count" the RLE. Didn't show up in a dress and heels for the appointment? Reset the RLE clock... Since there is no legitimate defintion of what it means to live as female or male, it's not even a well defined requirement.

RLE may be a good idea for some, but as a requirement to diagnose or obtain medically necessary treatments, it is inappropriate nonsense.


(*) Careful here: it probably has helped some people, in the sense that people have decided through RLE not to transition and reached a better outcome. That doesn't mean it's effective. Randomly picking 10% of those seeking HRT or SRS and refusing them treatment would also occasionally prevent someone from undergoing a treatment they would be better off without. It needs to be shown that RLE selectively weeds out cases where the treatment is inappropriate.
-=< Jennifer >=-

  •  

Dena

Lets tackle this from another angle. How can you make an informed decision about surgery if you don't know what life will be like after surgery. Before RLE, I was totally unprepared to even put on a proper face much less face the public in a dress. RLE forced me to learn how to produce a presentable female image that I was comfortable with in public. It gave me enough time in therapy that my mind was also ready for life as a woman. After surgery, I returned to therapy for a free of charge follow up but as I did all the required work before surgery, the follow up really wasn't required.

As for gate keepers, I was lucky encountering the group. The group would meet 4 times a month and you needed to attend two meeting a month. Private session at that time was $60 and hour and the group was $60 a month regardless of the number of meeting you attended. You only needed to show that you had thought everything out and you had no mental conditions that would prevent you from deciding for yourself. The standard was one year of cross living and hormones were permitted before you started cross living. I only know of one person who was denied surgery and she felt she was above the written test that were given to her so she played with the answers. She couldn't be certified as able to make the decision for herself and required more therapy.

Anyone who finds these standards harsh may not fully understand that with proper treatment SRS is a pretty minor part of package. Without proper treatment before SRS, you could face some real mental problems after surgery.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
If you are helped by this site, consider leaving a tip in the jar at the bottom of the page or become a subscriber
  •  

jeni

I am more sympathetic for surgery than for HRT, since it does relatively little to aid in "passability." However, again, without some evidence that forcing people to jump through this hoop actually helps anyone, it's inconsistent with the standards for other similar medical procedures.

The usual, and apt, comparison is with breast augmentation for cis females: a year of RLE with a stuffed bra would be far less intrusive than cross-gender RLE, and regret rates are (I believe, though without a specific source) relatively high.

Last I checked, the only requirement prior to a nose job is ability to pay... and plenty of people end up with bad ones.

If the interest here were wholly with protecting us from making a bad surgical decision, there'd be similar requirements for other, non-taboo surgeries. But there aren't, and nobody seems to complain about that...
-=< Jennifer >=-

  •  

Swayallday

Quote from: Dena on August 13, 2015, 04:25:55 PM
Lets tackle this from another angle. How can you make an informed decision about surgery if you don't know what life will be like after surgery. Before RLE, I was totally unprepared to even put on a proper face much less face the public in a dress. RLE forced me to learn how to produce a presentable female image that I was comfortable with in public. It gave me enough time in therapy that my mind was also ready for life as a woman. After surgery, I returned to therapy for a free of charge follow up but as I did all the required work before surgery, the follow up really wasn't required.

Very valid argument.
nontheless
I can't comfortably present a female image.

To be fair, I'd have hoped to live full time by the time I get to surgery.
  •  

Jill F

There are as many ways to be trans as there are trans people, yet we have a one-size-fits-all approach to treating us foist upon us by cis people who apparently think they know what our best interests are better than we do. 

I think RLE should be nothing more than a suggestion.

I believe it currently exists so that if there are regrets and lawsuits down the road, the medical professionals can testify that they "went by the book".

RLE=CYA

That being said, I went full time voluntarily after 2 months of HRT because "boy mode" in public felt ludicrous.  I had my letters and orchi per WPATH.   I just hope that when the time comes for the "whole shebang", I am not required to jump through any more hoops.  I think that after 2 1/2 years I've paid my freaking dues already.
  •  

jeni

Quote from: Jill F on August 13, 2015, 05:34:26 PM
There are as many ways to be trans as there are trans people, yet we have a one-size-fits-all approach to treating us foist upon us by cis people who apparently think they know what our best interests are better than we do. 

Yes! It is discriminatory against non-conventional sexual orientations or gender expressions in a huge way. Until quite recently, I would not ever be eligible for treatment because I am not attracted to men. A specific requirement was that you identify as a heterosexual woman.

Not to mention, there is no need to present in any particular way to be a woman. I primarily have body / genital dysphoria. If I decided that I didn't want to change anything about my appearance or behavior besides GRS, why should that not be permitted? Because that gender expression is not "normal"?

As long as I am capable of understanding and accepting the risk of regret, which by all indications is extraordinarily low for GRS, I ought to be able to opt in, perhaps subject to a "waiting period" to establish that my desire is persistent.
-=< Jennifer >=-

  •  

Jessica Merriman

Quote from: AnonyMs on August 13, 2015, 02:54:55 PM
I'm not afraid to admit that everyone else is wrong.
Ok, now I get it. Good luck in the future. :)
  •  

Mariah

Quote from: jeni on August 13, 2015, 06:23:24 PM
perhaps subject to a "waiting period" to establish that my desire is persistent.
Part of the reason behind RLE. I agree I think these rules need to go, but I do feel some way of ensuring people are making sound choices and won't come back and say I regret this now and impact our ability to proceed. The risk they take for themselves needs to be limited to them so as to not have consequences for others. Control that. I'm all for a better idea. What that exactly looks like is hard to say. Hugs
Mariah
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask me.
[email]mariahsusans.orgstaff@yahoo.com[/email]
I am also spouse of a transgender person.
Retired News Administrator
Retired (S) Global Moderator
  •  

suzifrommd

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 13, 2015, 12:46:15 PM
Only through doing it the right way will our community earn the right to proceed as we feel we need to.

Why do we need to earn the right to control our own bodies? Aren't they our bodies? Who controls them if we fail to earn the right?
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
  •  

jeni

Quote from: Mariah2014 on August 13, 2015, 07:28:48 PM
Part of the reason behind RLE. I agree I think these rules need to go, but I do feel some way of ensuring people are making sound choices and won't come back and say I regret this now and impact our ability to proceed. The risk they take for themselves needs to be limited to them so as to not have consequences for others. Control that. I'm all for a better idea. What that exactly looks like is hard to say.

It seems pretty straightforward to me: see a care provider a few times over the course of whatever period of time (a year seems reasonable to me, though arbitrary---I doubt gender identity is linked to planetary orbital mechanics) and demonstrate that you still want the treatment. This prevents someone from doing this on a whim, and gives the provider time to establish that they are of reasonably sound mind to make a decision like this. It's more than is required for plenty of permanent choices that could result in serious regret (prominent tattoos, plastic surgery).

(I didn't state outright earlier, but a diagnosis of gender dysphoria (or whatever the best diagnostic term for "being trans" is in the future) ought to be needed as well, IMO.)

Another issue is that it hasn't even been shown that RLE dissuades anyone from obtaining surgery they "shouldn't" have---i.e., we don't even know that it is at all effective at preventing cases of eventual regret. It's a tempting, but really not very sound assumption, that it's better at preventing regret than just waiting a year.
-=< Jennifer >=-

  •