What circumstance is there upon which vengeance is acceptable?

[RebeccaFog]

In response to Katia's post on forgiveness, I am starting this thread on vengeance.

I have taken the position that forgiveness is a necessity.  Forgiveness is separate from vengeance in that, if all can be forgiven, then so too can an act of vengeance. However, for the premise of this thread, the vengeance must be justified and cannot just sprout from a knee-jerk reaction.

Is there any condition under which vengeance is acceptable?


My view is that vengeance is acceptable if it can be justified by the fact that it will stop others from suffering.

[tinkerbell]

I agree, Becca; that is why I am in favor of the death penalty. 

tink

[cindianna_jones]

I can never justify any violent act.

However, with that said, from my own perspective, self preservation trumps all.  In a case where vengeance is also an act self preservation, I would participate.

For what it is worth, I have very mixed feelings about the death penalty.  There have been many cases recently where death row inmates have been proven innocent with DNA evidence.  How many innocent people have been murdered in the name of justice?  For what it is worth, check out the stories about the Lindberg kidnapping and prosecution.  It's an interesting subject to study when considering the death penalty.

Cindi

[RebeccaFog]

I can never justify any violent act.

However, with that said, from my own perspective, self preservation trumps all.  In a case where vengeance is also an act self preservation, I would participate.

For what it is worth, I have very mixed feelings about the death penalty.  There have been many cases recently where death row inmates have been proven innocent with DNA evidence.  How many innocent people have been murdered in the name of justice?  For what it is worth, check out the stories about the Lindberg kidnapping and prosecution.  It's an interesting subject to study when considering the death penalty.

Cindi

don't forget Sacco and Vanzetti

[rhonda13000]

I won't do it. I've got enough on my plate.

I'll leave that to Him, Romans 12:19. He'll do a much better job than I could.

But I will admit that in the context of my anger and a certain mindset that 'locks in' in specific situations, this could prove to be extremely difficult not to implement myself.

Posted on: June 30, 2007, 08:53:55 PM

I can never justify any violent act.

However, with that said, from my own perspective, self preservation trumps all.  In a case where vengeance is also an act self preservation, I would participate.

For what it is worth, I have very mixed feelings about the death penalty.  There have been many cases recently where death row inmates have been proven innocent with DNA evidence.  How many innocent people have been murdered in the name of justice?  For what it is worth, check out the stories about the Lindberg kidnapping and prosecution.  It's an interesting subject to study when considering the death penalty.

Cindi

Color me stupid, but how could an act of self-preservation or defense be categorized as vengeance?

[Elizabeth]

So far in my life I have never seen vengeance be successful. It either escalates the violence and leads to someone seeking vengeance in return, it is not enough vengeance, or it just don't feel good. In fact I have never seen anyone feel good about paying someone back. I have watched a few shows about victims relatives getting to see executions. Each time they did not feel better. Some felt it did nothing to bring back thier loved one, and some thought the criminal got to die "too easy".

Mostly, in order to feel vengeance one must feel negative feelings. One must continually dwell on being wronged. Since nothing in the past is movable, and can't be changed, vengeance makes no sense to me. It forces me to accept having to think about it in exchange for what? It's not that I don't have feelings to want someone to pay. It's just that the cost is too high. I feel I am better off just suffering my loss than to suffer my loss and then spend the rest of my life dwelling on negative feelings because of it.  The payoff is just not enough to make it worth it, at least to me.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[rhonda13000]

So far in my life I have never seen vengeance be successful. It either escalates the violence and leads to someone seeking vengeance in return, it is not enough vengeance, or it just don't feel good. In fact I have never seen anyone feel good about paying someone back. I have watched a few shows about victims relatives getting to see executions. Each time they did not feel better. Some felt it did nothing to bring back thier loved one, and some thought the criminal got to die "too easy".

Mostly, in order to feel vengeance one must feel negative feelings. One must continually dwell on being wronged. Since nothing in the past is movable, and can't be changed, vengeance makes no sense to me. It forces me to accept having to think about it in exchange for what? It's not that I don't have feelings to want someone to pay. It's just that the cost is too high. I feel I am better off just suffering my loss than to suffer my loss and then spend the rest of my life dwelling on negative feelings because of it.  The payoff is just not enough to make it worth it, at least to me.

Love always,
Elizabeth

It's a self-destructive action and it wounds the spirit and soul, often grievously.

And I can say this intellectually and as a woman of spirit and of conscience, but let's say hypothetically that some sick psychopath [and there are many out there, these days] tortured and killed my ex-spouse.......

I know what would happen, what could happen....a cold and vicious rage...and then he would be no more, after made to suffer worse than he put her through.

It wouldn't be pretty. But it still would be wrong and constitute a sin against God.

Words to live by: Roman 12:19.

[Nero]

If someone harmed my mother in any way, I would hunt him down. I am very much against the death penalty, but if the victim were my own mother, lethal injection would not be enough. I wouldn't relent until I had tortured and dismembered the bastard.

[Jeannette]

If someone harmed my mother in any way, I would hunt him down. I am very much against the death penalty, but if the victim were my own mother, lethal injection would not be enough. I wouldn't relent until I had tortured and dismembered the bastard.

I quite agree with Nero here.  My mum's sacred and nobody can touch her whilst I'm alive.

[Elizabeth]

I guess I don't want to spend my life like Inigo Montoya.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[rhonda13000]

I guess I don't want to spend my life like Inigo Montoya.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Elizabeth, if you felt 'under attack' by what I said, you should not have. I was more or less concurring with you.

The subject prompted further thought and hypothesizing, that's all.

And I pray that the scenario [or similar] never happens, because I know me. And I wouldn't use a gun.

I don't need one.

[Keira]

The problem with revenge is that first you've got to make sure your going after the right target, and then your applying an appropriate response to the original sin.

Since revenge implies a strong emotional response that will cloud judgement, it will very hard think clearly enough to do either.

That's why being a Cop, judge/jury and executioner all in one is generally not a good idea.

Also, the justice system is so fraught with human errors or fraud, that I wouldn't trust it to not commit errors in sentencing that would lead to many deaths. That's why illinois suspended the death penalty, even though the governor was initially a proponent of death penalty.

[rhonda13000]

The problem with revenge is that first you've got to make sure your going after the right target, and then your applying an appropriate response to the original sin.

Since revenge implies a strong emotional response that will cloud judgement, it will very hard think clearly enough to do either.

That's why being a Cop, judge/jury and executioner all in one is generally not a good idea.

Also, the justice system is so fraught with human errors or fraud, that I wouldn't trust it to not commit errors in sentencing that would lead to many deaths. That's why illinois suspended the death penalty, even though the governor was initially a proponent of death penalty.

Make that 'could'.

There are indeed instances where capital punishment is justified.

God has never spoken against the government's employment of the same.

You're pretty cool, Keira. And pretty sharp. 

[The Middle Way]

I am in favor of the death penalty. 

There have been many cases recently where death row inmates have been proven innocent with DNA evidence.  How many innocent people have been murdered in the name of justice?  For what it is worth, check out the stories about the Lindberg kidnapping and prosecution.  It's an interesting subject to study when considering the death penalty.

Cindi

don't forget Sacco and Vanzetti

and doubtless a whole lotta chumps on death row as we speak.

[cindianna_jones]

Color me stupid, but how could an act of self-preservation or defense be categorized as vengeance?

Four months after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, we sent out men to bomb Japan. They launched stripped bombers from an aircraft in the operation which has become Dolittle's raid. This was in all likelihood a suicide mission.  It was a practiced and measured response.  But it was vengeance for the people of America.

Like that.

Cindi

[Elizabeth]

When I was in high school a good friend of mine had his car dented up and all the glass broken out of it. He had been a troubled kid and three years before that after getting into a fight with his mother, he barricaded himself in their family home. When the Sheriff showed up, he pumped two rounds from a 12 gauge shotgun into the officers car door. The officer was not injured and he later surrendered. Because of this incident he was still on probation.

So he decided to go to the police and file charges. It took almost a year, but finally all four of the boys who damaged his car were convicted and put on probation. Later the same day as the conviction he pulled into a local grocery store parking lot that us high school kids used to park and meet at. His clothes were all tore up and he was bleeding.

I asked him what happened and he said that the guys that were convicted jumped him and beat him up. There were no witnesses and it was four against one. I asked him what he was going to do and he looked at me and said "I'm gonna kill em". Now mind you, this is not an uncommon phrase for a high school kid, especially one that just got beat up.

The next morning it was all over the news, the paper and the school. My friend had shot and killed two boys as they left a party. He had known where they were going to be that night, even  as he talked to me, he knew where they were going to be. He waited at the end of the street where the party was that these guys were at and waited for them as they would have to stop at the stop sign.

He waited a long time but finally about 3:00 am he saw the blue camaro leave the party and head down the street. When they stopped he shot the driver in the head with that same 12 guage shotgun. The passenger who was stunned not only by the driver getting his head blown off, but he also was peppered with buckshot in in face and upper body.

My friend then went around the to the passenger, pulled him out of the car and beat him mercilessly. He then put the shotgun to the passengers head and blew his head off too. He got the revenge he so badly wanted.

Only one problem. It was the wrong house, the wrong car and the wrong guys. He killed two perfectly innocent teenage boys who were unfortunate enough to be driving a blue camaro of the same year. I never seen him again. I moved a few months later, which I am glad because I might have been forced to testify against him. He was convicted on two counts of first degree murder and to the best of my knowledge, he is still in prison. His life completely wasted and two boys lives ended for no reason, in the name of vengeance.

I think this is typical of vengeance, no one wins. Everyone loses.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Yvonne]

I'd take actions into my own hands if someone killed my parents.  Cannot wait for justice to take care of that.

[King Malachite]

If someone harmed my mother in any way, I would hunt him down. I am very much against the death penalty, but if the victim were my own mother, lethal injection would not be enough. I wouldn't relent until I had tortured and dismembered the bastard.

I can see this being a very strong reason to support vengence.  If someone touched my family or my lover then I would be relentless to track them down and make sure that my name is personally "Karma" that night even against the victim's wishes.

Vengence doesn't seem to work for most people but it does work for some.  My father always told me that the greatest vengence in life is living good.  I don't want my thoughts consumed with vengence because it doesn't hurt the feelings of the one you seek vengence against and they usually don't lose sleep over it.  With the exception of my above passage I would like to think that karma would do it's justice if the legal system would not.