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Understanding "the other side"

Started by Northern Jane, September 17, 2015, 03:16:48 PM

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Northern Jane

I was transsexual from Day 1 and there was no hiding it. It was a mighty tough road as there was no support and no understanding back in the 1950s and 60s so everything was an uphill battle and many died. I was "it" for most of my childhood and teens and was disowned in my early 20s when I transitioned and had SRS. I thought I had it rough.

Today I watched a Dr. Phil show on transgender, the one that is referred to in another thread https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,196015.0.html

After watching the show and seeing the incredible pain that afflicts those around the transgender person who 'transitions' later in life, I think maybe my childhood wasn't so bad. The "collateral damage" was probably less and it didn't come as a surprise to anyone.

I have a new compassion for those who go through this at a more mature age.
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nicole99

I like that term collateral damage. That is exactly what it was when I transitioned. We try to minimise it as much as we can, but I think there will always be some collateral damage.

suzifrommd

Quote from: Northern Jane on September 17, 2015, 03:16:48 PM
After watching the show and seeing the incredible pain that afflicts those around the transgender person who 'transitions' later in life, I think maybe my childhood wasn't so bad. The "collateral damage" was probably less and it didn't come as a surprise to anyone.

Didn't watch the show, but I can't imagine what collateral damage there could be (other than self inflicted by those suffering the "damage"). When we transition we are still there for the people who depended upon us in the exact way we were before. If those people choose to feel damaged, it's on them. If those around them are exerting social pressure, that the damage is inflicted by the pressure, not by the transgender person finally living as themselves.

I'm sorry, I just don't see how transitioning damages anyone.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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stephaniec

I can understand collateral damage of the wife who didn't marry into it or the children involved in the confusion. I cant understand what damaged was caused to that father because the son chose life. I saw the video of the father crying , but he was  crying for himself , not his daughter .
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KayMc

People grieve. For many folks, it's like a death. Not in that they'll never see the person again - but there is conflict, because yes, they'll never see that same person they knew again.

New name. New voice. New look. New attitudes, in many cases. New mannerisms, in many cases. On the inside, people know they are the same person. On the outside, the person your family and friends knew was the *mask* you were wearing before transition. And the mask is gone, replaced by this other person who in some cases they barely know.

Be compassionate and understand the grieving.
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Jill F

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suzifrommd

Quote from: KayMc on September 17, 2015, 07:20:04 PM
Be compassionate and understand the grieving.

Yes, I agree.

But there is a difference between "I am grieving" (a personal reaction to what has happened) and "I have been damaged" (blame being placed for harm caused).

One grieves on many occasions. My daughter just went off to college and I will see her much more rarely. When someone gets married, they have reserved a piece of themselves for their spouse that will no longer be available to others. Each of these prompts grieving. But neither of these can be said to have "damaged" those that grieve.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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Jessie Ann

This is something I have had to come to grips with.  I can understand how some of my older relatives are needing time to adjust to the changes that I have gone through over the last 6 months.  I have pretty much fully transitioned over an accelerated 6 month period.  While I feel extremely fortunate to have been able to transition quickly,  I understand how some people, like those who have know me for over 50 years, may feel that I have not given them enough time to go through the grieving and acceptance process.  As for my younger family members, they have been very good at accepting me from the beginning.  Some family members have been what I consider abusive.  I just have nothing to do with them. 

I've never wanted anyone to be damaged by my transition but I lived a damaged life for over 50 years.  It just gets to the point that you have to fix yourself and hope that by being a happy authentic individual those around you will see the positive and not dwell on what I view as their negative feelings.  I didn't ask to be Trans (just like individuals don't ask to get sick with cancer or some other condition) and I while there may be consequences that emerge from my chosen treatment plan, those who truly love and respect me will not blame me for those consequences just like they wouldn't blame any other individual who seeks medical treatment.     

Quote from: KayMc on September 17, 2015, 07:20:04 PM
Be compassionate and understand the grieving.

Quote from: Jill F on September 17, 2015, 07:38:58 PM
But do not accept abuse.
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natashaX

The only collateral damage is us
As we are the ones doing the dying .......duuuh
They continue on living as if we don't exist
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Batmanlovr

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Carrie Liz

I saw the episode in question, and yeah, people understandably need time to grieve, and to be fair the trans person in question cheated on her wife and basically had a very deterministic "get out of my way" attitude about the whole thing once she started, but in this case of why they're rejecting, it's very much based on transphobic biases and cultural gender BS.

The father was crying because "I failed as a man. He was supposed to be a boy... you know, BOY! SON! Strong!"

And the wife was crying because "He ruined my fairy-tale relationship."

In other words, "I had this particular image of something that was accepted and ideal by society's standards, and was living my idealistic dream, and now that dream is dashed, now we can't be normal and ideal anymore. Waah! My idealistic fantasy based on cultural gender expectations is ruined!"

Also, the father called Kristin Beck "He, or she, or whatever it is." I lost all sympathy for him when he said that.

On the plus side, Dr. Phil was surprisingly pro-trans in this episode, something that he usually wasn't in the past, to the point that he told a mother to not encourage her son to engage in his feminine interests, and shunned a trans woman for being "selfish" for her family breaking up due to her transition. Not this time. He actually said that it's a medical condition, which has been shown that it's due to brain differences, possibly due to differences in prenatal hormone exposure. And when the father said those mean words to Kristin Beck, he actually said, "and sir, please don't call a Navy SEAL an "it."" Progress!
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Missy D

It's an odd one but, for me, I tend to agree with Jane and her label of collateral damage. I'm only speaking personally here, so it's more of my opinion than anything else and I don't claim it's right or anything.

But... For me, the best way out of this has been to try and avoid the tendency towards solipsism. This is probably the most personal journey that I, and others, will make. Which is needed I suppose, yet by concentrating too much on personal factors we risk losing sight of other people. I mean, we could just ask who needs them anyway?

In my case the answer is me!!  ;) I need my family, I need to have friends and friends of friends. I have to have that to enjoy life, and I think that social acceptance is the way we'll eventually integrate into wider society. I'm a nicer person now than I ever was, I've started voluntary work and all sorts. Maybe that's society's gain? However I also take from them.

I don't think we can realistically expect to turn up one day and say: "Hi I'm Missy now, this is how I dress and this is what you call me" and expect everyone else to just get on with it. That's not fair - other people have emotions too!! For me it's been a matter of coming out and trying to be nice and making an effort to show everyone that I, once broken out of my dull little cocoon, can try to be a better person than I used to be. More friendly, more giving and more emotionally responsive maybe. And maybe it works. I have more friends now. The people I used to know have become closer, they want to see me more. Certain barriers have gone  :) And it's lovely.

But the only way I think that can happen is by considering their feelings. They have, or had, an emotional attachment to the old self. In some ways it's like a separation or  even a death. I feel that I've gone through a conscious process to get rid of the old character. Even though it was nothing, just clouds of contrivance spun together until they resembled a person, some people liked it. And to learn it was gone was upsetting. We have a unique power. We can say: "You're never going to meet [John] again because I'm [Jessica] from now on". Nobody else does that - has the facility to, legally  ;), remove someone from the world entirely. Perhaps, I don't know.

So for others the emotions will run all the way from, on the loss side, feeling like a close friend has moved away all the way through to death of a family member. My parents, for example, did all they could. They bought me presents and took me out and gave me experiences they thought I would enjoy. And then to go and tell them that none of it really mattered, that in many ways I didn't enjoy what they were doing, was hard. Hard for me, but so much harder for them  :(

For them it's a total loss of a huge emotional investment. The person they thought they were raising, they thought they loved and did everything for, no longer exists. I think that, in some ways, I'm asking them to do something way beyond normal human experience. I'm asking them to accept the loss of someone they have loved, and to love someone else. And it's not like they've even got any choice. Bless them - they are getting there  :) :) But to essentially get someone to learn to love someone else takes time. And all this talk about being the same person doesn't do it for me. I'm not!! I look different, behave differently and do different things. It feels like a truer expression of what I am, and I enjoy it more, but on the other hand that's only half the picture for me. I wouldn't want to have fun at someone else's expense, and I couldn't live with causing people emotional hurt.  :( So I try not to.

Which, for me, does mean dealing with rejection in the best way that I can. I have had it. Yet I don't think, personally, the way forward is to necessarily label such people as transphobic or whatever. It is complicated for other people.
"Melissa makes sense!" - my friend
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Northern Jane

Quote from: Missy D on September 18, 2015, 12:51:07 AMIt is complicated for other people.

That is probably the most noteworthy statement I have heard in awhile.

We, the afflicted, understand what is happening to us but it is a totally foreign experience for those around us, one for which they have no  basis of understanding. My adopted parents did their best to raise a boy despite the obvious fact that I wasn't. That's what they were told to do and they tried very hard so when it didn't work, they had a sense of failure and the guilt that came with it.

collateral damage
n.
Unintended damage, injuries, or deaths caused by an action, especially unintended civilian casualties caused by a military operation.
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