House cuts transgender people from hate crimes bill

[Jessie_Heart]

I am surprised by the entire tone of this conversation! what I seem to be hearing is that since people who choose to live in thier target gender role completely do "pass" and they just want to live thier lives then people think they don't need the same right and protections as everyone else? I know several gay and lesbian couples who choose to just live thier lives and not be active in fights for rights (my sister and girlfriend being one of those couples!). when they go shopping they don't hold hands and kiss because of fear of reactions so most times people probably think that they are just friends out shopping together. so just because they don't want harrassed does that mean they don't need the protections and rights we all want for our selves? there are plenty of people who could be classified under the GLBTQ banner that just choose to live thier lives quietly does that mean that they should be left out of these protections? I define myself as a lesbian woman (although I do have this annoying birth defect!) I have been out all dolled up and I have "passed" well enough to have men open doors and smile at me and when I am finished with transisition I plan to live as a lesbian but I also plan to be active in support for "transgender" people as well! I thought the idea of equal rights bills was so that everyone was treated equally (including people who choose to live in stelth!) I thought that these fights were about the right to choose how we live our lives without discrimation and harrassment! if this is the case how can people who choose to live in stelth be told that they don't deserve the right to these protections. what if no matter how deep of stelth someone lives in somehow someone found out then would it be ok for them to be harrassed? I guess I am just not that intelligent I am just confussed doesn't everyone deserve the rights and protections to live thier lives how they choose!
and as far as hetro people not needing protections in highschool I hung around several gay men it is just where I felt comfortable and at that time I was presenting as a hetro male because of fear. I was jumped and severlly beaten because I hung around gay men was it ok that I was jumped since I was presenting as a hetro male? I think everyone deserves and needs protections and rights and the freedom to choose how to live thier lives!! 

[tinkerbell]

I guess that people get upset when some of us say that we don't want to be out and proud and "assume that we don't do anything for the community".  The fact of the matter is that no one here knows what person A or person B does.  Yes, they may choose to be stealth and again that is their right, but just because they have chosen not to wear the TS label on their foreheads does not mean that they are against TG people and do nothing for the community.  It is always wrong assumptions of this nature that create this type of tone in the discussions.  Tsk tsk ..

tink

[Jessie_Heart]

I guess that people get upset when some of us say that we don't want to be out and proud and "assume that we don't do anything for the community".  The fact of the matter is that no one here knows what person A or person B does.  Yes, they may choose to be stealth and again that is their right, but just because they have chosen not to wear the TS label on their foreheads does not mean that they are against TG people and do nothing for the community.  It is always wrong assumptions of this nature that create this type of tone in the discussions.  Tsk tsk ..

tink

well I guess it just goes back to what they say about when you assume!!

by the way Tink on a lighter note I haven't seen anything new about Peter Pan in a long time do you have him tied up in your closet?? LOL

[BeverlyAnn]

I noticed that Barney Frank included this in his written statement:

"One of the problems I have found over the years of discussing this is an unwillingness on the part of many, including leaders in the transgender community, to acknowledge a fact: namely that there is more resistance to protection for people who are transgender than for people who are gay, lesbian, and bisexual."

Frank noted that gender identity was only first incorporated into ENDA this year-- "a fairly recent addition to the fight" -- and argued, " We are on the verge of an historic victory that supporters of civil rights have been working on for more than 30 years: the passage for the first time in American history by either house of Congress of legislation declaring it illegal to discriminate against people in employment based on their sexual orientation."

This is the same type of horseshi.....uh, rose fertilizer that HRC has been spouting for years.  I noticed many GLBT groups signed a letter in opposition to dropping inclusion of trans people but HRC didn't sign it.  And then the people at HRC wonder why many trans people think HRC is composed of backstabbing....well anyway those of you who have known me for years know what I think of HRC.

Beverly

[Ell]

Tink, you are queer. Really queer. and i mean that in the tenderest and kindest way i can possibly say it.-ell

LOL    Okay Ell.  I believe that you truly believe that, Ell; however as I said, I don't agree with it regardless of what a zillion of dictionaries state.  (what can I say?  I'm a very stubborn girl).  Incidentally, thanks very much for the sweet comments

tink

You're welcome!

[RebeccaFog]

however, i frankly don't understand why the GLB would stick its neck out for us, anyway. i don't go to GLBT clubs anymore, because i don't feel at all welcome there. in fact, the vibe i get is that they wish i would just get lost. what does GLB have to lose by getting rid of us? the fact that they have stood by us and spoken up on our behalf for the last 10 years is what confuses me. maybe that phase is coming to an end. maybe the new trend is, the GLB have decided that they don't really like us, after all. and, if we are a political liability, maybe they think they'll be better off without us. 

-ell

Nobody is better off without us, my dear sweet sweet Ell. 

Posted on: September 29, 2007, 03:02:10 PM

my take on the difference between G and T is that trans men and women are in fact more true to the idea of traditional male and female gender roles. but that certainly doesn't make us less queer. yes, in fact, that makes us the queerest of the queer.

don't be fooled by any trans girls who try to make you think otherwise. if they want to go stealth, you and i can't stop them. but the harder they try to assimilate, the queerer they will be.

-ell

You amaze me.  (in a good way)


signed,

Rebis - the queerest of the queer   

[Ell]

Oh, thank you Rebis. You're very kind!

-ell

[katia]

queer    (kwîr) KEY 

ADJECTIVE:
queer·er , queer·est
Deviating from the expected or normal; strange: a queer situation.
Odd or unconventional, as in behavior; eccentric. See Synonyms at strange.
Of a questionable nature or character; suspicious.
Slang Fake; counterfeit.
Feeling slightly ill; queasy.
Offensive Slang Homosexual.
Usage Problem Of or relating to lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, or transgendered people.
NOUN:

Offensive Slang Used as a disparaging term for a homosexual person.
Usage Problem A lesbian, gay male, bisexual, or transgendered person.
TRANSITIVE VERB:
Slang queered , queer·ing , queers
To ruin or thwart: "might try to queer the Games with anything from troop movements . . . to a bomb attack" (Newsweek).
To put (someone) in a bad position.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ETYMOLOGY:
Perhaps from Low German, oblique, off-center, from Middle Low German dwer; see terkw- in Indo-European roots

OTHER FORMS:
queerish (Adjective), queerly (Adverb), queerness (Noun)
Usage Note:
A reclaimed word is a word that was formerly used solely as a slur but that has been semantically overturned by members of the maligned group, who use it as a term of defiant pride. Queer is an example of a word undergoing this process. For decades queer was used solely as a derogatory adjective for gays and lesbians, but in the 1980s the term began to be used by gay and lesbian activists as a term of self-identification. Eventually, it came to be used as an umbrella term that included gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people. Nevertheless, a sizable percentage of people to whom this term might apply still hold queer to be a hateful insult, and its use by heterosexuals is often considered offensive. Similarly, other reclaimed words are usually offensive to the in-group when used by outsiders, so extreme caution must be taken concerning their use when one is not a member of the group.

Deviating from the expected or normal; strange: a queer situation. not applicable in katia's case.  i'm as normal as it gets.

Odd or unconventional, as in behavior; eccentric. See Synonyms at strange.
Of a questionable nature or character; suspicious. not applicable in katia's case either.  eccentric?  sorry?

Slang Fake; counterfeit.  maybe true for ppl that regard their womanhood or gender identity as fake.  not applicable in katia's case either.  if i were to see my gender as fake, i wouldn't be katia now, would i?

Feeling slightly ill; queasy. ha ha ha. my gender is not an illness.  nope. not applicable either.

Offensive Slang Homosexual.
Usage Problem Of or relating to lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, or transgendered people.  ahhh key word:  [offensive slang].  i don't relate to it so it doesn't apply to me either.  if other ppl want to call me queer, fine.  i've been called a  "bimbo" in the past too.  am i a bimbo? no.  same thing with queer.  capiche?

[Hazumu]

From Transgender equality: A handbook for activists and policymakers
(Top page here)

Publication Type: Report

Date: June 19, 2000

Misconception #1: "Including trans people will kill the bill"
...It is often voiced by GLB people who fear
that lobbying for a trans-inclusive bill will undermine efforts to secure civil rights for
gay people. Perhaps because of this fear, trans people were excluded from almost 80%
of the local laws prohibiting sexual orientation discrimination in
employment that were enacted from1996 through 1999.
In fact, the fear that including trans people "will kill the bill" is
almost always exaggerated and based far more on unfounded speculation
than on a realistic assessment of what is possible...

...Conversely, experience has also shown that nothing is more destructive of efforts to win civil rights protections for our communities than internal
conflicts and divisions. Those conflicts drain our collective energies and engender bitterness
and mistrust that may poison working relationships for years. They also play directly into the "divide and conquer" strategy of our opponents, who are only too
happy to see us focusing our limited resources on battling one another. In the long run,
making a good faith effort to work for and include trans people is by far the most pragmatic
strategy.

--Someone please tell Barney and Nancy that.

Karen

[Ell]

Deviating from the expected or normal; strange: a queer situation. not applicable in katia's case.  i'm as normal as it gets.

ok, by adding the  after your most serious reply is grammatically equivalent to monty python's nudge nudge wink wink say no more, which is to say, it negates it.

thus
Bob is a 10 means B = 10
but
Bob is a 10 means B ≠ 10  or even  B = -10

so when you say
I'm as normal as it gets it means I'm not as normal as it gets

is that what you meant? or are you saying that you're really, honestly, truly normal? because what is the big deal, really, if you are or you aren't? will it really matter in the long run? i'll be back to check on you later. now i'm going to go dance.

[Thundra]

Deviating from the expected or normal; strange: a queer situation. not applicable in katia's case.  i'm as normal as it gets.

As normal as it gets for a lesbian? Or has that changed now too? Your right to choose of course. But if you are lesbian, i.e. homosexual, you are queer.  Sorry to have to break that to you love.

I guess that people get upset when some of us say that we don't want to be out and proud and "assume that we don't do anything for the community".  The fact of the matter is that no one here knows what person A or person B does.  Yes, they may choose to be stealth and again that is their right, but just because they have chosen not to wear the TS label on their foreheads does not mean that they are against TG people and do nothing for the community.  It is always wrong assumptions of this nature that create this type of tone in the discussions.  Tsk tsk ..

Nobody cares what you do with your life poofy-girl. Nobody cares if you are stealth or not.
But in regards to people's regard for their comrades here, why make people guess? Let's just get that into the open. Someone posted earlier that they support the rights of transitioning people if they follow the rules. So, why not let everyone here know where you stand on a personal basis. If they are not transitioning, or planning to transition, or if they choose to express their gender in a manner inconsistent with traditional male and female roles, do you support their rights to be protected under the law? By you I mean anyone reading this.

See, transitioning people, or people that have transitioned and are stealth, complaining that queers do not support their rights by dropping the current ENDA proposal are blowing smoke in my opinion. Because if those same people aren't concerned about their comrades here on Susan's being left unprotected, than they have no moral imperative to complain about queers.

And since most people that have transitioned seem no longer feel that they need those protections, from what I gather here, then they only seem to feel they need said protections in their transitory phase. So, if they support the current ENDA proposal, what they also seem to be saying is that they support the rights of other people, like them, to do the same thing as them. Which kinda infers that the people left behind that they don't seem to hear here are SOL. That seems to sum it up for me.

I have no problem supporting an ENDA bill which includes protections for all forms of gender expression, whether traditional, non-traditional or GF. So, until we can get that all-inclusive bill to pass, perhaps in the next election cycle, why not wait? Why protect some forms of gender expression, but not others? Or, more importantly, is that the aim of some people here? To purposefully leave some people out of those protections?

I don't think that there is a certain tone in these discussions, so much as there is a schism in how disparate groups of people here view the world. Some people just want to be themselves and respect the rights of others to do the same, creating a healthy diversity of behavioral types. Other people choose to assimilate and support the heterosexist regime that represses other people unlike themselves, destroying diversity in the process.

I don't think Tink could be construed to be queer by any sense of the imagination. 

[Hypatia]

...Conversely, experience has also shown that nothing is more destructive of efforts to win civil rights protections for our communities than internal
conflicts and divisions. Those conflicts drain our collective energies and engender bitterness
and mistrust that may poison working relationships for years. They also play directly into the "divide and conquer" strategy of our opponents, who are only too
happy to see us focusing our limited resources on battling one another. In the long run,
making a good faith effort to work for and include trans people is by far the most pragmatic
strategy.

--Someone please tell Barney and Nancy that.

Thanks--I'm going to!

Edit: I sent mail to Pelosi using the e-mail form from her web site: http://www.speaker.gov/contact - however, Frank's site does not give out his e-mail address, and he has it set up so only residents of his district can e-mail him. He also says snail mail to Congress can be delayed for weeks while they make sure it doesn't have anthrax. That leaves telephone calls--Frank's DC office number is (202) 225-5931. I quoted the Task Force transgender equality handbook and added:

The decision to exclude transgender from ENDA is seriously wrong. I am a transsexual woman serving her country, whose career and livelihood may be affected by your decision. We are talking about real people's lives and just now you have perpetuated injustice and discrimination against a whole class of your fellow citizens. I urge you to reinstate transgender inclusion in ENDA.

Your decision is proving seriously detrimental to the LGBT equality movement. The Republicans are now laughing at us--for years they have wanted to divide us, and we have remained strong in solidarity; the harm that they have not been able to do, you have just done to us. I urge you to reconsider.

[Christo]

whooo  hooo   hella cool posts.....

thundra.  dont mess up w/my princes >   

i'm dancin

[Hypatia]

This is the same type of horseshi.....uh, rose fertilizer that HRC has been spouting for years.  I noticed many GLBT groups signed a letter in opposition to dropping inclusion of trans people but HRC didn't sign it.  And then the people at HRC wonder why many trans people think HRC is composed of backstabbing....well anyway those of you who have known me for years know what I think of HRC.

I had been skeptical of HRC for a long time, because of the past history you allude to. But last year, after talking to my friend, one of the leading transgender activists in the DC area, she said they're genuinely supporting us now, so I was persuaded and signed up with them.

The latest statement from Solmonese says:

Passing an inclusive ENDA is the right thing to do for our community, our economy and our country.  However, we're facing a stark reality.   

House leadership and the bill's sponsors very firmly believe that if the House votes on an employment non-discrimination bill without gender identity, that legislation will pass—again, it will pass even without the support of the GLBT organizations.

After trying everything at our disposal to change this outcome, we are just beginning to come to terms with what that means.

Since 2004, the Human Rights Campaign's policy has been to only support civil rights legislation that is inclusive of gender identity. That's why we fought tirelessly for and won Congressional approval for a fully inclusive hate crimes bill.  We've been fighting to pass the Employment Non-Discrimination Act for more than a decade.  The breaking news that the House has decided to move forward on a non-discrimination bill that is not inclusive of gender identity is devastating. The Human Rights Campaign remains dedicated to the fight for full equality for our entire community and, in light of this new reality, continues to consult with members of Congress and our lobbyists to determine how we can achieve that goal.

(bolding mine)

I'm not sure how to parse this-- is he supporting transgender inclusion in ENDA or not? I am turning skeptical again, and until I see a clearer statement from them, I don't think I can endorse HRC.

[Ell]

I'm not sure how to parse this-- is he supporting transgender inclusion in ENDA...?

hardly. the HRC were celebrating a victory immediately after the Trans language was cut from it.

[tinkerbell]

poofy-girl.

Poofy?  Hmmmm.....hopefully this is NOT a personal attack, Thundra.  I REALLY hope you meant this: 

Poofy is also a slang adjective used to describe something that is soft/fluffy and puffy but has a sense of firmness to it, generally used to describe hair or soft objects.

Poofy can also be used to describe something that gives a positive emotional feeling, such as an animal that is very loving or even a friend or sibling with whom you have a very strong relationship. This sense of the word is derived from the slang (see above) which describes a soft or fluffy object.

and not this:

Definitions
poof
poofter
noun

1. offensive, slang
A male homosexual.
Derivative: poofy
adj

Effeminate.
Etymology: 19c: from French pouffe puff.

I don't think Tink could be construed to be queer by any sense of the imagination. 

You are absolutely right, here.   Kuddos to you....


tink

[taylor]

Thundra,

You bet I believe in protecting ALL people and I do so in all that I do. It seems as if you assume that because I live my life in the straight community as other males do, that I am incapable of protecting the rights of others that do not live life as I do?  Come on I am by far not that shallow. I have no problem with people and the way in which they feel free to express themselves. It is all our rights to choose for ourselves what works for us. It is not your right, my right or anyone elses right to claim being superior over another group of people or an individual.

It appears to me that you have some personal issues towards straight TS and or IS persons that make choices differently than you do. Don't reflect that out on others, there is no justification in doing so.

As for your statement on my history... you need to go back up and read the first post I put in this thread before I responded to you.  You will find that I did indeed address the money issue and the TS/IS community getting that support from the G community. But it is a two way street, and there is give and receive in both directions of the relationship. I did not however share what I personally feel in regard to this, because what I personally feel and what is politcally needed may not be the same. My focus is on what is realistic, not idealistic.

Take Care,

Taylor

[Jessie_Heart]

I guess that people get upset when some of us say that we don't want to be out and proud and "assume that we don't do anything for the community".  The fact of the matter is that no one here knows what person A or person B does.  Yes, they may choose to be stealth and again that is their right, but just because they have chosen not to wear the TS label on their foreheads does not mean that they are against TG people and do nothing for the community.  It is always wrong assumptions of this nature that create this type of tone in the discussions.  Tsk tsk ..

Nobody cares what you do with your life poofy-girl. Nobody cares if you are stealth or not.
But in regards to people's regard for their comrades here, why make people guess? Let's just get that into the open. Someone posted earlier that they support the rights of transitioning people if they follow the rules. So, why not let everyone here know where you stand on a personal basis. If they are not transitioning, or planning to transition, or if they choose to express their gender in a manner inconsistent with traditional male and female roles, do you support their rights to be protected under the law? By you I mean anyone reading this.

I don't think that there is a certain tone in these discussions, so much as there is a schism in how disparate groups of people here view the world. Some people just want to be themselves and respect the rights of others to do the same, creating a healthy diversity of behavioral types. Other people choose to assimilate and support the heterosexist regime that represses other people unlike themselves, destroying diversity in the process.

well I guess since i read this I am one of the "yous"! I think people should be allowed to express themselves in whatever manner they see fit as long as it is not hurting anyone (in a real way not ina way that they believe thier moral senses are being hurt!) and as long as there is no public nudity involved (sorry I just don't want my kids to see some things yet!) and I believe that they should be protected in thier rights to do so. I do not believe one group should be singled out for attacks weather they be different colors or different sexualities or different genders (birth or identified) or the lack of feeling as if they fit into any gender exclusivly or weather they have certian handicaps or on the basis of age! I think everyone should be treated equally and this includes weather they decied to be out and proud or weather they decied to live in stelth.
I know that most probably don't agree with what i am about to say but this bill affects everyone weather they know it or not! as long as basic freedoms and protections are denied to any group of people based on any percieved differences then eventually it could turn out that whatever group of people you belong could one day be singled out and discrimated against. I do not know exactly how to feel about what has gone on about this bill but I know that I am not going to blame any group of people for the actions of a few individuals weather or not they belong to these groups. these are the actions of individuals not the entire groups of people. once we start in on blamming entire groups of people for the actions of individuals in that group that is how discrimation is carried out in essance! how can any of us fight against discrimation while we are discrimanating against others I find that to be an act of Hypocrisy!

[Thundra]

Poofy?  Hmmmm.....hopefully this is NOT a personal attack, Thundra.  I REALLY hope you meant this: 

Oh please!  I know the rules. I may disagree and try to incite a deeper level of discussion at times, but personal attacks are not my thing. I can throw a jibe with the best of them, but if I want to insult someone, they probably won't even realize it.

I can see where you are coming from. The nasty slang term for homosexual male that I am accustomed to, is calling someone "a poof." I was using the term poofy interchangebly with foofy which might have been a mistake on my part if it caused confusion in that regard. From my POV, calling a homosexual male "a poof" is denigrating because it is comparing a male person to have attributes similar to or the same as a foofy or poofy girl, which is in effect calling him effeminate - the greatest insult in more machismo circles.  Femmy women are foo-foo, or foofy or poofy. It is who they are - they can't change it or feel the need to change it.
They are secure in their identity.

If I used that same comment around femmy GF's of mine, they would not even know to take it that way. Put another way, if I tried to insult the average woman by calling her effeminate or gay as in homosexual, they would laugh at me. Because it makes no sense to do so. It's non-sensical.

But taking the backgrounds of the people here into consideration, I will watch for it in the future.

[Ell]

When the right to marry issue hits the waves in 08' the Intersex community is the one in position to save the LGB community, get involved folks and you may be suprised what is happening behind closed doors and in public summits is a lot of work to help YOU!

Hello Taylor,

i am very impressed with your knowledge in these important issues. and i wish to introduce myself, because i think you are one of my new heroes! my name is ell, and it is a real pleasure to meet you.

would you care to elaborate on what you've said here?

-ell