->-bleeped-<-

[RachelsMantra]

So very often on this site I notice that people will say another woman passes yet I disagree completely: they do not pass.

What are my obligations? Usually I just keep my mouth shut because I tend to only comment on someone's passing if I do in fact think they pass rather than when I don't think they pass. I also don't want to contradict other people's opinions, nor do I want to deflate someone's ego or trigger dysphoria.

Is it a problem that trans women on this site are being told they pass when a lot of people, especially strangers in public, might not think they pass? Are we just providing a false sense of security? Do other people just have lower standards for what counts as passing? My criterion for passing is that I cannot tell whatsover that someone was assigned male at birth. I personally believe this is a high criterion and not many people actually pass it. In my book there are usually some clockable features to most trans women, even if they are beautiful in other respects.

[Naomi71]

Ok, there is honesty and there is positive reinforcement. You're absolutely right. I know I don't pass at all and feel awful about it every day, especially since it's taking so very long before I get the treatment I need. But I'm kind of on my own transitioning, can't share the way I look or how I would like to look with anyone and am happy with any feedback I can get. But I don't need to be told I "pass" if I don't and am not even wondering if I do. I enjoy my femininity to be acknowledged though.

[suzifrommd]

I don't know how one can tell whether someone passes or doesn't by a single picture. Passing is a very complex process. It involves mannerisms, voice, movement, facial expressions as much as appearance. It's strong affected by clothing and hairstyle. One can have classically feminine features and be clockable in an instant because of the way they move or talk. Many cis women have very masculine features but no one for a moment imagines them trans.

I think the "Do I Pass" threads are more of a social ritual and a confidence builder than a source of accurate information. It's more like when  a woman IRL asks "how does my hair look", the answer is not, "there's kind of a messy area off to the left." Unless something is massively out of whack and easy to fix, the answer is, "you look fabulous."

[Autumnleaf]

Well I can say that I don't pass.  But it is always nice to hear other people's *positive* opinions.  Really, being trans is hard as it is with pretty much everyone telling you or hinting that you don't pass.  If we are each other's cheerleaders instead of being critical or harsh, doesn't that at least help others feel better?   

For people who say, "I'm just being a realist", or "I'm giving constructive criticism."  No, you're just being an ass. 

Maybe some people pass, maybe some don't.  I'm not a *love the world and each other* type but I do believe we should support each other.   

P.S. Totally agree with what suzifrommd said.

[Kova V]

I don't know how one can tell whether someone passes or doesn't by a single picture. Passing is a very complex process. It involves mannerisms, voice, movement, facial expressions as much as appearance. It's strong affected by clothing and hairstyle. One can have classically feminine features and be clockable in an instant because of the way they move or talk. Many cis women have very masculine features but no one for a moment imagines them trans.

I think the "Do I Pass" threads are more of a social ritual and a confidence builder than a source of accurate information. It's more like when  a woman IRL asks "how does my hair look", the answer is not, "there's kind of a messy area off to the left." Unless something is massively out of whack and easy to fix, the answer is, "you look fabulous."

^ ^ ^
This!

You know, even when someone is on the right track, positive re-enforcement really helps. Passing isn't really yes/no, it's a journey. People like to know if they are headed in the right direction. Generally we all know what we need to work on, sometimes it's hard to know if you're getting anywhere because changes happen so slowly, it's hard to have perspective for yourself. I've seen quite a few posts pointing out what others are doing right.

Also it's never good to rip someone down especially when their confidence is in question or when they've come a long way and are still moving forward. If you're good at speaking, you can give positive constructive suggestions but as the old saying goes, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. That's my philosophy. There are enough negative things in my world, I don't want to add to it.

[iKate]

I really don't tell people they pass now unless they really do. Unfortunately honesty has hurt people's feelings and one woman even started taunting me via PM. So I've had enough of it.

If you want my opinion ask privately and I will be happy to give you helpful constructive criticism.

Also understand that it's better you hear you don't pass from people here rather than a stranger in public, or worse yet be subject to physical violence and discrimination.



I was at the point where I did not "pass" at all once. Now I think that is largely behind me as people don't gender me male or act differently toward me and always gender me female using miss, ma'am, lady, hon or even the occasional b**ch. Nobody brings up anything Trans unless I tell them; and people are surprised when I do tell them, such as the judge in the courtroom where I went to legally change my name.

But again I'm not perfect and I'm fully prepared to be clocked and how to react to it. But I must admit it's not something I think about day to day. I'm at the point where I more or less take passing for granted. But I don't fully take it for granted and like I said, if I'm clocked I know how to respond.

Finally don't take my word as final! I can be and sometimes am wrong. I'm human too just like everyone else here.

[iKate]

Ok, there is honesty and there is positive reinforcement. You're absolutely right. I know I don't pass at all and feel awful about it every day, especially since it's taking so very long before I get the treatment I need. But I'm kind of on my own transitioning, can't share the way I look or how I would like to look with anyone and am happy with any feedback I can get. But I don't need to be told I "pass" if I don't and am not even wondering if I do. I enjoy my femininity to be acknowledged though.

I think there are ways to do that without dishonesty. If you tell someone they look nice that doesn't necessarily mean they pass. But it acknowledges their femininity (or masculinity for the guys) without being dishonest about passing.

But there was one person who complained in a thread about how she was being called "bro", "dude" and "sir" and wondering why. She had just started HRT. When I told her one of the pics she posted doesn't really look feminine at all she went ballistic on me. I don't think I deserved that. She asked for an opinion and she got it!!!

But if someone posts a selfie in some nice clothes or maybe a new makeup look they can be told they look nice even though they may look totally masculine and not "pass" at all. It's encouragement nonetheless without lying. And you can even say someone has potential. But I think plain dishonestly is harmful because the real world is far more brutal.

[Wednesday]

But I think plain dishonestly is harmful because the real world is far more brutal.

I think this is a rather relevant point.

Anyways I think most people can figure whether a comment about passability is too much optimistic or cheerful.

If you ask me I think the most reasonable approach is:

- Remark the positive features, traits, aspects. Compliment them.
- Give humble advice about what you think that can be improved, always in a "glass half full" manner. I think trying to help when you're asked for (but never in a harsh way) is very fruitful.
- Better be honest than hypocritial, but if being honest means to hurt somebodys feelings, better be silent.
- Always keep in mind the friendly-support nature of the community. First of all, be friendly.

On a side note I think peoples passing criteria varies largely. I think it can depend on many many factors like on how good is one at spotting physical traits, on the mood of the viewer (sometimes we feel more optimistic), on the particular sense of beauty, even on oneself perceived passability, self-image, etc.

[Ms Grace]

I really don't tell people they pass now unless they really do. Unfortunately honesty has hurt people's feelings and one woman even started taunting me via PM.

Did you report them? We have a dim view on people who do this.

[Dankster]

I've been ->-bleeped-<-ed many times and I hate it. All I want is the honest truth. Would it be possible to start a new passing thread for honest feedback and constructive criticism? A thread where ->-bleeped-<- isnt allowed.

[Wednesday]

I've been ->-bleeped-<-ed many times and I hate it. All I want is the honest truth. Would it be possible to start a new passing thread for honest feedback and constructive criticism? A thread where ->-bleeped-<- isnt allowed.

I think that kind of thing should be done privately.

[Devlyn]

We have a Passing subforum. I suggest anyone looking for brutal honesty about their own photos start a thread there and let the members know they want it straight even if it's harsh.   

Hugs, (a box full!) Devlyn 

[Roni]

I believe a nice compliment here and there, and also acknowledging improvements in people's passing don't hurt. But you are right in saying ->-bleeped-<- is a very big issue, on this site and also many other trans community online spaces. ->-bleeped-<- is very damaging.. I suffer from body dysmorphia at the moment; I don't have a clear perception of my identity and have a morphed sense of self/image. ->-bleeped-<- damages my mental condition further because I am not told the truth if I pass or not. Essentially I have to take people's words as truth over what I see in the mirror, because I am told what I see in the mirror isn't what other people really see. You can understand why it is crucial that plain honesty is used when people ask for it.

[Ms Grace]

We have a Passing subforum. I suggest anyone looking for brutal honesty about their own photos start a thread there and let the members know they want it straight even if it's harsh.   

As Devlyn says, if you want the truth ask for the truth - just be prepared to take it if it isn't what you want to hear. For everyone else, some compliments or words of encouragement never hurt anyone, I certainly don't see it leading to mass delusions.

If you don't believe someone passes and want to give honest feedback give it constructively and with compassion, just don't expect some people to like you for it. If you can't do that then don't say anything.

Conversely there are people who are told repeatedly that they (or at the very least their pics) pass with flying colours and yet refuse to believe it because they don't seem to want to believe it themselves.

Ultimately it doesn't matter a jot what other people think about what you look like - you have to be happy with yourself and be realistic about yourself out in the real world.

That said I don't think this thread (and the many others exactly like it which pop up every few months) is contributing much of value to forum discussion. It is a tired and circular argument that you either agree with or you don't.

[stephaniec]

I rarely, very rarely use those forums because no one ever replies to me which is worse than getting out right negativity. It's probably because it's hard to criticize the twin of Greta Garbo .

[iKate]

Did you report them? We have a dim view on people who do this.

Oh I did. She was blocked from sending PM and subsequently deleted her account.

[iKate]

I've been ->-bleeped-<-ed many times and I hate it. All I want is the honest truth. Would it be possible to start a new passing thread for honest feedback and constructive criticism? A thread where ->-bleeped-<- isnt allowed.

Devlyn said the passing forum is the place but if you want to ask my opinion privately you're more than welcome to do so.

[Oliviah]

I hear I pass, but I don't believe it for a second for some reason.

[stephaniec]

your brain cells have all those years of presenting male in all activities that you've done your entire life that to over ride the set stored circuits is challenging.

[iKate]

I believe a nice compliment here and there, and also acknowledging improvements in people's passing don't hurt. But you are right in saying ->-bleeped-<- is a very big issue, on this site and also many other trans community online spaces. ->-bleeped-<- is very damaging.. I suffer from body dysmorphia at the moment; I don't have a clear perception of my identity and have a morphed sense of self/image. ->-bleeped-<- damages my mental condition further because I am not told the truth if I pass or not. Essentially I have to take people's words as truth over what I see in the mirror, because I am told what I see in the mirror isn't what other people really see. You can understand why it is crucial that plain honesty is used when people ask for it.

I kind of dealt with this issue by simply not worrying. I know this is oversimplification but I pass, I just don't worry about it. I know I have some things I want for myself eg a small amount of FFS, hair removal and maybe skin resurfacing.

But this is another thing - my goal for passing is different from some girls. Some want to be the most beautiful in the room and turn heads. I simply want to just be a woman of my age and ethnicity and I don't care if I'm ordinary looking.

Eg this (sorry about the selfie stick)