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Transgender Romantic Woes: Preference or Prejudice?

Started by suzifrommd, January 03, 2016, 08:22:42 AM

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suzifrommd

Transgender Romantic Woes: Preference or Prejudice?

https://www.susans.org/2016/01/03/transgender-romantic-woes-preference-or-prejudice/

By Suzi Chase, 1/3/2016

In a recent poll on this site, more than three quarters of the respondents answered that being trans made their dating and romantic lives either "much harder" (50%) or "impossible" (28%). It's no secret that being transgender greatly narrows an already difficult dating pool.

It's tempting to dismiss these disheartening facts as unimportant. Millions find happiness without romantic attachments. Surely there are bigger fish to fry for a population with our economic, employment, and safety issues.

However, lack of romantic attachment is a contributing factor. By all studies and on all scales, members of romantic partnerships fare better economically and are healthier and safer.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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crazycool86

yeah im sure its probably pretty rare to find a single female that is attracted to Trans women

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Adena

Thanks for the thought-provoking article.

My impression is it's going to take an indirect approach to find a romantic partner in most cases. That is, concentrate on developing deeper friendships with a few people, and maybe over time one of the relationships will develop enough that your potential partner can contemplate a life-commitment with you because your inner beauty rather than your transness is now what dominates their impression of you.  When such a friend sees you they now rarely would think "trans" - more likely thinking "good person I like to be with" or other such things about you. 
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Tysilio

I think it's a little misleading to frame this as a matter of "romantic woes," given that a large part of it is about sexual preferences, not "romance."  It's a mistake, and misleading, to gloss over the fact that dating is usually about sex.

There's no getting around this: sexual attraction is based heavily on physical characteristics. Some people's sexual preferences are pretty much set in stone; others' aren't. People who define themselves as bi- or pansexual are attracted by all kinds of people, and find a wide variety of physical characteristics appealing. That's fantastic, and I wish there were more of them in the world. But most people are more limited in their range of attraction, whether it's to the opposite sex, the same sex, slender, muscular, plump, hairy, not hairy, dark skin, light skin, etc., etc.  Things like facial features, voice and smell can also matter, as well as dress and other aspects of someone's presentation. I'm attracted to fine-featured, somewhat androgynous women, leaning a bit toward the femme side of that spectrum; but make-up and "hairdos" are complete turnoffs for me. I've had happy sexual relationships with women who don't fit that description, but if I'm in a crowded room, that's the one I'm going to have a visceral "Yes!" response to when I see her from a distance.

But the 800-pound gorilla in this particular room is... genitals. I really, really like female ones, and penises completely turn me off. Leaving aside foot fetishes and whatnot, let's face it: sex involves the genitals of another person, and sexual desire isn't something that can be altered at will. It's taken a long time for this fact to be generally accepted: look at how long it's taken for "reparative" therapy for homosexuals to be discredited and seen for the dangerous, abusive thing it is. Society is finally recognizing that same-sex attraction isn't a choice; it's in some way hard-wired, and just isn't amenable to change.

It's a little astonishing to me that against this background, some of us are suddenly taking the position that it's somehow "prejudice" if someone who likes women and female genitals isn't attracted to a woman with a penis, or if someone who's into penises doesn't want to go to bed with a man who doesn't have one.

Note that I'm only talking about sexual attraction here, not about social acceptance. Women with penises are no less women than the ones with the other type of junk, and the same goes for men (like me) who weren't born with a penis. It's imperative that society accepts us as the men and women we are, but it's not imperative that anyone we're attracted to should want to have sex with us. That's not prejudice, it's the nature of erotic attraction.

It would be great if more people were able to be attracted to a wider variety of physical types, and I hope we evolve in that direction. Sometimes I wish I were turned on by penises -- I can see that they'd be lots of fun to play with. But, alas, not for me -- it's just the way I'm wired, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Never bring an umbrella to a coyote fight.
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stephaniec

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Tysilio

Never bring an umbrella to a coyote fight.
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AnonyMs

If its prejudice I don't think anything is going to change it until our culture changes, and that's a slow process. I don't think its possible to confront it head on.

Worse, it will be as older people die off and are replaced by new generations, and that's not much help to those of us who are older already.
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Sharon Anne McC


*

Being that my anatomy and orientation is not structured toward reproduction opens my field of play though I admit that I have been out of play for quite a while - some for reasons of serious health issues which I am still recovering.

As I joked with my gender counsellor during a session earlier this Summer,  it would be fun to have an experience with a F-M, but we would not likely be able to compare notes on the experience.

*
*

1956:  Birth (AMAB)
1974-1985:  Transition (core transition:  1977-1985)
1977:  Enrolled in Stanford University Medical Center's 'Gender Dysphoria Program'
1978:  First transition medical appointment
1978:  Corresponded with Janus Information Facility (Galveston)
1978:  Changed my SSA file to Sharon / female
1979:  First psychological evaluation - passed
1979:  Began ERT (Norinyl, DES, Premarin, estradiol, progesterone)
1980:  Arizona affirmed me legally as Sharon / female
1980:  MVD changed my licence to Sharon / female
1980:  First bank account as Sharon / female
1982:  Inter-sex exploratory:  diagnosed Inter-sex (genetically female)
1983:  Inter-sex corrective surgery
1984:  Full-blown 'male fail' phase
1985:  Transition complete to female full-time forever
2015:  Awakening from self-imposed deep stealth and isolation
2015 - 2016:  Chettawut Clinic - patient companion and revision
Today:  Happy!
Future:  I wanna return to Bangkok with other Thai experience friends

*
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Amy1988

Thank God that I have no interest in romantic or sexual relationships.   Sure makes life a lot easier. 
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SgtSalt

Quote from: Tysilio on January 03, 2016, 11:29:53 AM
I think it's a little misleading to frame this as a matter of "romantic woes," given that a large part of it is about sexual preferences, not "romance."  It's a mistake, and misleading, to gloss over the fact that dating is usually about sex.

There's no getting around this: sexual attraction is based heavily on physical characteristics. Some people's sexual preferences are pretty much set in stone; others' aren't. People who define themselves as bi- or pansexual are attracted by all kinds of people, and find a wide variety of physical characteristics appealing. That's fantastic, and I wish there were more of them in the world. But most people are more limited in their range of attraction, whether it's to the opposite sex, the same sex, slender, muscular, plump, hairy, not hairy, dark skin, light skin, etc., etc.  Things like facial features, voice and smell can also matter, as well as dress and other aspects of someone's presentation. I'm attracted to fine-featured, somewhat androgynous women, leaning a bit toward the femme side of that spectrum; but make-up and "hairdos" are complete turnoffs for me. I've had happy sexual relationships with women who don't fit that description, but if I'm in a crowded room, that's the one I'm going to have a visceral "Yes!" response to when I see her from a distance.

But the 800-pound gorilla in this particular room is... genitals. I really, really like female ones, and penises completely turn me off. Leaving aside foot fetishes and whatnot, let's face it: sex involves the genitals of another person, and sexual desire isn't something that can be altered at will. It's taken a long time for this fact to be generally accepted: look at how long it's taken for "reparative" therapy for homosexuals to be discredited and seen for the dangerous, abusive thing it is. Society is finally recognizing that same-sex attraction isn't a choice; it's in some way hard-wired, and just isn't amenable to change.

It's a little astonishing to me that against this background, some of us are suddenly taking the position that it's somehow "prejudice" if someone who likes women and female genitals isn't attracted to a woman with a penis, or if someone who's into penises doesn't want to go to bed with a man who doesn't have one.

Note that I'm only talking about sexual attraction here, not about social acceptance. Women with penises are no less women than the ones with the other type of junk, and the same goes for men (like me) who weren't born with a penis. It's imperative that society accepts us as the men and women we are, but it's not imperative that anyone we're attracted to should want to have sex with us. That's not prejudice, it's the nature of erotic attraction.

It would be great if more people were able to be attracted to a wider variety of physical types, and I hope we evolve in that direction. Sometimes I wish I were turned on by penises -- I can see that they'd be lots of fun to play with. But, alas, not for me -- it's just the way I'm wired, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But don't you think if society didn't enforce such strict gender roles and expectations this wouldn't be a problem at all? We tell our children from the moment they're born that man = penis and woman = vagina, and even you referred to vaginas as "female genitals." Female carries heavy connotations with "woman" and there rests the issue, because the more we argue that genitals are a matter of sexual preference the more we reinforce the notion that men must have penises and women must have vaginas to be taken seriously.

I guess it just bothers me greatly because while I am attracted to men, I wouldn't hesitate to date a trans man. Of course, I'm hardwired to want penises, but just because a man doesn't have a penis doesn't mean I wouldn't date him at all, because there are so many dozens of ways to have sex. I'm attracted to cis and trans man and I can't tell the difference because they look just the same and to know that people will refuse the trans man because oh, well, they don't have a penis and it's not in my preference is highly frustrating.

Sexual preference seems highly limiting to me too because preference would mean you would want that but wouldn't necessarily mind something different, but people use it as a way to refuse anyone that doesn't fall under their picture perfect idea. For instance, my type is usually a dark haired dark eyed cis man, but I have been attracted to blond hair blue eyed trans man and I feel it's quite silly of me to deny my attraction because it's not in my preference.
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Tysilio

Quote from: SgtSaltBut don't you think if society didn't enforce such strict gender roles and expectations this wouldn't be a problem at all?

Maybe, and that would be excellent. But we can ask "if" questions until the cows come home, and it won't change the way people operate now. I think I was very clear in my above post that I'm not endorsing any absolutist ideas about this, and that I hope that people will, over time, come to be much more open about whom they consider as possible sexual partners.

Quote from: SgtSaltWe tell our children from the moment they're born that man = penis and woman = vagina, and even you referred to vaginas as "female genitals." Female carries heavy connotations with "woman" and there rests the issue, because the more we argue that genitals are a matter of sexual preference the more we reinforce the notion that men must have penises and women must have vaginas to be taken seriously.

I think you missed the part where I said this:
Quote from: TysilioNote that I'm only talking about sexual attraction here, not about social acceptance. Women with penises are no less women than the ones with the other type of junk, and the same goes for men (like me) who weren't born with a penis. It's imperative that society accepts us as the men and women we are, but it's not imperative that anyone we're attracted to should want to have sex with us. That's not prejudice, it's the nature of erotic attraction.

Quote from: SgtSaltSexual preference seems highly limiting to me too because preference would mean you would want that but wouldn't necessarily mind something different, but people use it as a way to refuse anyone that doesn't fall under their picture perfect idea. For instance, my type is usually a dark haired dark eyed cis man, but I have been attracted to blond hair blue eyed trans man and I feel it's quite silly of me to deny my attraction because it's not in my preference.

You're quite right -- I couldn't agree with you more. If a person is attracted to someone who doesn't fit their usual "type," that's great, and there's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't act on that. But people don't, in my experience, have much control over who attracts them sexually, at least in a "dating" scene in which the expectation is that you either "click" sexually with someone right away, or you don't. It's not that unusual for sexual attraction to develop over time, as two people become more and more intimate as friends, regardless of their general preferences, but the topic of the thread is in the context of dating, and that's what I was addressing.

My point is simply that people don't in fact have control over that gut-level sexual response to another person, and it's futile to label that as "prejudice."  We can require that someone in the business of baking cakes must bake one for someone they object to on a personal level, but that's not gonna work when it comes to sex and "romance."
Never bring an umbrella to a coyote fight.
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SgtSalt

Quote from: Tysilio on January 05, 2016, 02:22:20 PM
Maybe, and that would be excellent. But we can ask "if" questions until the cows come home, and it won't change the way people operate now. I think I was very clear in my above post that I'm not endorsing any absolutist ideas about this, and that I hope that people will, over time, come to be much more open about whom they consider as possible sexual partners.

I think you missed the part where I said this:
You're quite right -- I couldn't agree with you more. If a person is attracted to someone who doesn't fit their usual "type," that's great, and there's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't act on that. But people don't, in my experience, have much control over who attracts them sexually, at least in a "dating" scene in which the expectation is that you either "click" sexually with someone right away, or you don't. It's not that unusual for sexual attraction to develop over time, as two people become more and more intimate as friends, regardless of their general preferences, but the topic of the thread is in the context of dating, and that's what I was addressing.

My point is simply that people don't in fact have control over that gut-level sexual response to another person, and it's futile to label that as "prejudice."  We can require that someone in the business of baking cakes must bake one for someone they object to on a personal level, but that's not gonna work when it comes to sex and "romance."

I really don't want to make it sound like I'm arguing with you, because I'm really not trying, so I apologize if I do. I'm just trying to figure something out that's been confusing me for so long.

I'll give a personal example. There's a man I know and I was attracted to him the first time I saw him, which was before I was identifying as a trans man. I thought he was quite pretty, and he's rather intelligent and artistic and had similar interests as me. I didn't know when I first met him that he was a trans man. When I found out, however, my attraction to him did not change at all because I thought overall physically he was beautiful and that his personality was beautiful as well.

Do I just feel attraction differently than others? I don't even take genitals into consideration, and I feel like we all fall in love with others because of their outward appearance and personality. With that being said, it seems rather transphobic to suddenly say you're not interested in them just because they don't have a certain body part since, after all, you liked them until you found that out.

And it's not really comparable to dating someone who's a smoker or something else undesirable (unless you have sort of traumatic experience or phobia regarding the person's genitals) -- not that you said that, but it's just an argument I hear an awful lot out of people. So what I try to do is point out to people that this ingrained idea that if you like men you like penises and vice versa is, in fact, transphobic, and since there are literally hundreds of ways to have sex you can make it work just fine.

I mean, even if I prefer penises more, if I felt attracted to a trans man (which I have) I'm not going to turn him down because he doesn't have one. Plus there arises the fact some trans people do have the correct genitals, and the implications that trans people are nothing more than our genitals and we can't be sexually gratifying partners.

I don't know, it's never made much sense to me, and I have never gotten a clear-cut answer from people because they're usually cis people angrily accusing me of forcing them to engage in things they don't want to do when I'm really just trying to have a discussion. Once again I apologize if I sound like I'm arguing.
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Tysilio

Quote from: SgtSaltI'll give a personal example. There's a man I know and I was attracted to him the first time I saw him, which was before I was identifying as a trans man. I thought he was quite pretty, and he's rather intelligent and artistic and had similar interests as me. I didn't know when I first met him that he was a trans man. When I found out, however, my attraction to him did not change at all because I thought overall physically he was beautiful and that his personality was beautiful as well.

Do I just feel attraction differently than others? I don't even take genitals into consideration, and I feel like we all fall in love with others because of their outward appearance and personality. With that being said, it seems rather transphobic to suddenly say you're not interested in them just because they don't have a certain body part since, after all, you liked them until you found that out.

I think it's great that you feel the way you do -- more power to you!

But not everyone is that open, unfortunately, and labeling them "transphobic" or "prejudiced" doesn't solve anything. I don't think you can educate people by calling them names -- directly or indirectly. Changes are already happening in this area: there are far more young people (twenty-somethings and under) who are much freer about this stuff than people who are, say, over 40. One reason is that they're much more likely than older people to know trans folk and just sort of accept them in their daily lives.

I'm over 60 -- if I were to date a straight, cis woman who's close to my age, it's likely that I'd be the first trans person she'd met; it would be understandable if she expected a man she was interested in to have a penis rather than a vagina, and that might be a deal-breaker for her (or not -- you never know ). If it were a deal-breaker, I could go a couple of ways: I could label her "transphobic" (in my own mind; I'd never tell her that to her face) and write her off, or I could see if she's still open to being friends, with no sexual expectations -- if she genuinely likes me as a person, she probably would be. Now we're in a situation where learning might happen -- and we both have a new friend, which is a good thing in itself.

If you want to educate people, you have to start where they are, and not get angry because they're not up to your standards.
Never bring an umbrella to a coyote fight.
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Deborah

I would think also that comparing the way a trans person views sexual attraction to a CIS person's view isn't really a fair comparison.  We have an entirely different experience from which everything else grows.  That doesn't make the CIS person wrong though.  Labeling someone bigoted simply for not having a sexual attraction isn't ever going to get us anywhere.

I would say more but I find myself in 100% agreement with Tysilio and he already said it all.


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Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
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SgtSalt

Alright, both of you make sense. I'm from a completely different generation too, so I that changes things a lot.
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suzifrommd

Quote from: Tysilio on January 05, 2016, 02:22:20 PM
My point is simply that people don't in fact have control over that gut-level sexual response to another person, and it's futile to label that as "prejudice."

Though, that's not exactly what the article talks about. The article is talking about people who already decide that because someone is trans, they're not for them, even before they know them enough even to have a gut-level response. Or, in the example given in the article, their gut level response attracts them to someone trans.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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Asche

I don't have any problem saying that most people who won't consider dating or becoming romantically involved with a trans person are doing so due to prejudice.  It's just a special case of society's general antipathy towards trans people.  When you consider how many people don't want us in their public bathrooms, or merely tolerate us there, it's hardly surprising that most people wouldn't consider us as romatic partners.

Even if someone might be interested in dating a particular trans person, they usually have to deal with the disapproval of the people around them.

I don't think this means that we should yell "transphobe!" at every (cis?) person who skips our dating profile, though.  Personally, if someone doesn't want to date trans people, my reaction is: good riddance.  Don't let the door hit you on the way out.  Who wants to have to interact with someone who is prejudiced against who you are?

I think we have to get enough people to accept our existence and our presence before we can do anything about the prejudice against trans people as romantic partners.  And once they do accept us, it will just be a matter of time (on the order of a generation or so) before being trans won't be all that much more of a handicap in the dating market than anything else.

P.S.: would it make sense for someone to create an on-line dating service specifically for trans people?  After all, we probably know better than anyone else just how awesome (and hot!) trans people can be.
"...  I think I'm great just the way I am, and so are you." -- Jazz Jennings



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SgtSalt

Quote from: Asche on January 06, 2016, 10:03:17 AM
I don't have any problem saying that most people who won't consider dating or becoming romantically involved with a trans person are doing so due to prejudice.  It's just a special case of society's general antipathy towards trans people.  When you consider how many people don't want us in their public bathrooms, or merely tolerate us there, it's hardly surprising that most people wouldn't consider us as romatic partners.

Even if someone might be interested in dating a particular trans person, they usually have to deal with the disapproval of the people around them.

True. There are a lot of cis people I'll talk to about this as well and they'll say I'm not prejudiced for not wanting to date trans people! and then immediately follow it up with something pretty bad (like my last run-in involved the cis person in question saying, "Because we don't want to get laid by men in drag," and then getting angry and telling me I'm oversensitive and the reason no one takes trans people seriously when I said it's not okay to call trans women that). So there's definitely a huge factor of transphobia involved, and that's what I'm trying to point out, but perhaps I'm jumping the gun. I've always gotten very frustrated when people to see things as quickly and easily as I do.

QuoteP.S.: would it make sense for someone to create an on-line dating service specifically for trans people?  After all, we probably know better than anyone else just how awesome (and hot!) trans people can be.

I wish! I've looked for those before and they're full of cis people who fetishize us so I stay far, far away.
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suzifrommd

Quote from: Asche on January 06, 2016, 10:03:17 AM
P.S.: would it make sense for someone to create an on-line dating service specifically for trans people?  After all, we probably know better than anyone else just how awesome (and hot!) trans people can be.

I listed myself on TGPersonals.com. Never met anyone there. There was basically no one in my area.

I also am not in love with the idea that we should ghettoize ourselves. We are perfectly wonderful partners. I don't see why we can't sit at the grownups' table.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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