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Trans vs. Gender-Fluid...the question remains...

Started by 2legit, December 25, 2015, 10:23:55 AM

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Janes Groove

Quote from: Late bloomer on January 22, 2016, 07:24:38 AM
Dr. is perplexed why I don't want to transition or dress up.  I told her I would personally would only be happy if I was a natural-born female. 

i came across this a while back reading from Harry Benjamin's seminal work The Transsexual Phenomenon.  for some reason it really stuck with me and i have been thinking a lot about it lately.

"The full and complete transsexual (S.O.S. V and VI) finds only temporary and partial relief through
'dressing.' I have even met transsexuals who would not 'dress' at all." What good is it?" they said; 'it does not make me a woman. I am not interested in her clothes; I am only interested in being a woman.'
That is the true transsexual sentiment."
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Devlyn

"true transsexual"  I think I just threw up into my mouth a little.
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Deborah

Dressing for me only left me depressed afterwards because I had to stop.  There really wasn't any relief at all unless I used a lot of alcohol to blur my vision enough to make my mirror image presentable.  That's pretty sad. :-(. 

On the other hand, HRT with some other appearance modifications is so far reducing dysphoria to a great degree without any need for alcohol at all.  This is accompanied by a greatly reduced drive to immediately come out to everybody and transition 100% right now.

This is leaving me somewhat confused about myself although because the dysphoria reduction is so great right now I don't worry about it too much.


Sapere Aude
Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
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Tessa James

I trust we can all agree with those time honored truths that suggest "clothes don't make the man" or the woman! or accurately reflect someones gender identity or orientation.

It is only too easy to look around and see people of all kinds wearing just what suits them.  Our personal liberation is encouragement for all people to feel free to live their truth out loud.   With any color of the rainbow available why settle for shades of grey?
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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Janes Groove

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 28, 2016, 01:13:34 PM
"true transsexual"  I think I just threw up into my mouth a little.

i know. me too. the book is full of that kind of stuff (i.e. offensive terms). it's tough to read, but i think there are some real insights in it.
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Missy D

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 28, 2016, 01:13:34 PM
"true transsexual"  I think I just threw up into my mouth a little.

Really? I'm so sorry that my existence causes people to vomit.  ;)
"Melissa makes sense!" - my friend
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Devlyn

People don't bother me. The True Transsexual ®  movement does. There has been much grief here over the years because of the subject.

Hugs, Devlyn
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Bunter

Benjamin wrote at a different time when "transsexual" was a relatively new concept. He was a pupil of Magnus Hirschfeld who had first described what we would call the "transgender spectrum", extensively and without judgment. He was the first one who did not pathologise trans people (in opposition to Freud and others), and he made clear that trans people are neither insane nor perverted.

In accordance with the time (~1900) he used the term transvestism (-vestism=cothes), because back then physical transition wasn't available yet (though there had been ftm surgeries such as mastectomies since the late 19th century). Clothes were the main tool that trans people used to transform their bodies. Hirschfeld explained that clothes become an extension of the body and can help to not only change the look but the internal body sensation.

He also promoted the so-called "third sex/gender" theory, but what he actually taught was that sexuality, gender expression, gender identity and physical sex are a spectrum with infinite individual combinations.

He later coined the term "extreme transvestites" for trans people who were looking for ways to change the body (such as self surgery). This later became "transsexual". But he also made it clear that transvestism and transsexuality are not separate phenomena, and the motivation is mostly the feeling that one is to some smaller or larger degree trans.

Things got messed up when Freud entered the scene and promoted the idea that transvestism is a sexually motivated perversion or fetishism. You could say that Freud stole the term and the whole concept of transvestism from Hirschfeld, and twisted it.

Benjamin also didn't say that there are "true" transsexuals as opposed to "not true" ones. The scale mostly had the practical purpose to help people (self) diagnose how important physical and social transition was for them, or if they could survive without it. At the time physical transition was still a high risk experimental procedure, so not putting everybody through surgery was an ethical thing to do. Several people died after surgeries or there were after effects such as incontinence or paralysis of the lower body. Hormone dosages were also still very experimental.

Both Benjamin and Hirschfeld believed in a physical, social and mental spectrum of sex/gender/sexuality, and today's concept of "true brain sex transsexuality" would have been alien to them, because they didn't believe that most cis people were 100% physically and mentally female or male, either.

The need for transsexuals to call themselves "true" transsexuals historically arose from the need to distance themselves from the Freudian fetishistic/perverted cross dresser concept that became popular since about the 1950s.
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Ms DeeDee

#28
Quote from: Bunter on February 04, 2016, 04:50:48 AM
Benjamin wrote at a different time . . .
Thank you Colorful/Bunter for this very enlightening history and that gives me some places to research!  This really helps me understand both some of the history of transgender "theory" and the relative nature of the meanings of words depending on when in history they are used.  Terms or ideas that may be offensive now may have been the best thing people had to work with in the past or may have meant something entirely differently to them at the time.

Hugs,
DeeDee
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gennee

Whenever I hear espouse the "true transsexual" mantra I want to ask them 'what the hell does that mean?'

???
Be who you are.
Make a difference by being a difference.   :)

Blog: www.difecta.blogspot.com
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sparrow

I identify as transgender, mostly because I experience a lot of genderfluidity.  Tear down the gender binary!
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