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What is liberal Christianity?

Started by redhot1, June 09, 2015, 11:23:52 PM

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redhot1

Growing up, while my parents did not explicitly shelter us from the world, they do tend to lean right-wing on lots of issues. Is it true that there are only conservative and liberal  Christians?

I might as well be a liberal Christian now, I used to view things more right-wing, but decided to discard or reject certain traditional ideas like anti-trans views and revelations (my most hated theological concept). What ideas does liberal Christianity accept or reject?

Those who call themselves liberal Christians say they have more compassion, but aren't more conservative Christians just as compassionate too? It's confusing.

My parents do respect my different views, even if they aren't as right-wing as theirs.
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Jacqueline

Redhot,

I have never heard an official definition of a liberal christian. I would assume my upbringing would be in this camp. Brought up as Presbyterian, I am aware the church I grew up in is a lot more liberal than John Calvin was when Presbyterians were created. For example, they have allowed gay ministers. They have recently endorsed their ministers (although not forcing them) to perform same sex weddings. With a little searching you will even find there is a trans minister in that fold.

Similarly, I could guess what a conservative christian would be but it would be just that a guess. I would imagine these would be believers that are more fundamentalist(take scriptures more literally). However, some may just be parts of a denomination that have not changed their tenants since the 50s or so.

I think that compassion can be a concept based on a particular group belief; however, I find it more of a personal thing. Fundamentalist believers of nearly any religion hold the scriptures and their literal meaning as a priority. Others within the christian world are more about interpretation.

That is not to say there are not very conservative Presbyterians(for example). I would suggest that certain denominations promote a more compassionate approach but that does not guarantee that all it's members are compassionate.

Just because Jesus was quoted as saying (paraphrased just as a trigger warning to all those fundamentalists reading) to love God above all others as the most important rule followed by love thy neighbor... and what you do to the least of these you do unto me- doesn't mean that all of his followers exhibit that behavior.

Read the bible if you want to know what Jesus and the bible said. It's not easy going for a couple of reasons but there are two things I will warn you about if you have not read it before:

1) Almost any verse in the bible taken out of context(and sometimes in context) can be refuted by another(that is why fundamentalist concepts about the Bible seems kind of silly to me);

2) it you make it all the way through or maybe just part way, there are some disturbing things that need to be considered. However that is part of the gig. People have been looking at them for a long time. Self exploration of a topic, where have we seen that before?

I have only seen a few verses that taken, out of context, could be used to condemn the trans community. None of the verses I have seen, that have been leveled against the LGBT community, seemed to have come from quotes of Jesus. I find that interesting. It was either prophets and teachers before and after.

These are just my reactions and reflections to what you wrote. Please, interpret and don't take them as gospel;).

With warm thoughts,

Joanna
1st Therapy: February 2015
First Endo visit & HRT StartJanuary 29, 2016
Jacqueline from Joanna July 18, 2017
Full Time June 1, 2018





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Lady Smith

What many Christians don't realise is that reading the Bible is a trans-cultural experience so it is very easy to make mistakes if the Bible is read with a western cultural viewpoint.  Unfortunately those who say they interpret the Bible literally make mistakes with scripture interpretation because of this and when in addition to this scripture is quoted out of context the mistakes increase.

Jesus said that his message was so simple a child could understand it.  Love God, love your neighbour as yourself.  That is the heart of the Christian message and nothing else written in the Bible is greater or more significant than that.
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Jacqueline

Lady Smith,

That is how I learned it too. However, it seems many feel the need to own and complicate the message. Ultimately, it feels as though it has been hi-jacked, to fit other's desire's, agenda's or their own truth. Religion seems to get in the way of belief. One can continue to hope it will get better.

I find it strange that many of the most compassionate people I know are agnostic or athiest. I think that is mostly because of bad experiences that were simply reinforced.

With loving thoughts,

Joanna
1st Therapy: February 2015
First Endo visit & HRT StartJanuary 29, 2016
Jacqueline from Joanna July 18, 2017
Full Time June 1, 2018





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RobynD

i consider myself to be a liberal Christian. The group that is growing, check out "Liberal Christians" on FB and other blogs, has members that come from many churches. The general themes i see among the followers there is a belief that the bible is indeed not literal, that it is not inerrant and is a multi-cultural work of many books that all discuss man's relationship to God.

Fundamentalists might say "that is your ethos because you want to cherrypick the word" (as if they don't) but i think for many it is not about that all. It's about how the faith fits in with their own experience and understanding of the supernatural, the world, humanity, creation etc. It's easy to use scripture as a weapon to try and bring people back into line with verses like "lean not on your own understanding" but it is much harder to apply scripture in a loving way to all of mankind.


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BeverlyAnn

Like Robyn said, I also consider myself a liberal Christian.  When I first became a member of the Presbyterian church I belong to, I was asked why I wanted to join that particular church.  My answer was I had been in a lot of churches that could quote John 3:16 but this was the first church I had ever been to that believed and practiced it.  And at that time, the transgender minister Joanna was most likely speaking of was our Parish Associate (and is my therapist.)   If I had to define a liberal Christian, I would use just what I said about my church as a whole.  It would be someone who believes the word "whosoever" in John 3:16 applies to everyone, not just a small group of people who think the same way.  It applies to all, straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer, etc.  And finally I would say it means I respect your beliefs and I will not strap my Bible to an axe handle and beat you over the head with it.
Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much. - Oscar Wilde



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Rina

Strictly speaking, liberalism and conservatism are political ideologies (and they're often used very differently in different cultures - liberalism in its original sense is not a left-leaning ideology), and not religious categories.

The problem when mixing them with religion is that they often elevate one truth/good to the truth/good. For liberalism it is freedom, for conservatism is it to preserve the values of society, for progressivism it is progress, for socialism (in its various categories) it is social equality, etc.

Most religions, on the other hand, maintain that a balance of these are necessary for a good human life/society. They are all important. In my own religion, Catholicism, the Church should represent freedom, preserve what is good, help us progress towards a better state, and guide us towards greater social equality. As my professor in applied theology/religious practice said, "When the Church stops fighting for social justice and equality, the Church is just as dead as if She stopped believing in Christ or stopped celebrating the Sacraments".

For that reason, once political ideology is mixed with religion, people start seeing only one factor as being important. Hence you have religious conservatives holding their societal "values" (which are, to be honest, often despicable) as more important than fighting poverty. And religious liberals (in the American sense, which doesn't really correspond to neither "liberal" nor "socialist" in their original meanings - it's probably closer to what is traditionally called "social liberalism") who see fighting poverty, or personal freedom, as more important than preserving what is good in our society or was good in previous generations. From a Catholic perspective, this could be seen as "sectarian" - which comes from "sector", "part", meaning "only looking at a part, not the whole". It is the opposite of Catholicism, which could be translated as "of the whole" or "wholeness", among other things. In other words, there is no such thing as conservative or liberal Catholicism, since to elevate only one good over the others is inherently un-Catholic. At least according to the Church, these goods are equally important.

Personally, I am a social anarchist (probably more accurately an anarcho-communist, but that has little to do with communism in the sense most people think of it, so I stick with "social anarchism"), and a Catholic. But I am not a "social anarchist Catholic". While I think some changes/some goods are more urgently needed than others in our current society and political reality, I do not believe they are more important than the others in a philosophical or religious sense. While I believe my political beliefs come very close to the tenets of Catholic social teaching (obviously, Republicans would vehemently disagree), they may not fit as well with other teachings. But contrary to what theo-conservatives seem to think, no political system will ever be in full accord with Catholicism. It is simply impossible, at least in this world. And Catholicism isn't a monolithic entity - there are numerous theological traditions, all "orthodox" (as in, they're acceptable interpretations), and often they're in significant disagreement. And theologians even disagree over what's acceptable. Many would see my views on sexual morality (I'd be described as liberal since I see nothing whatsoever wrong with responsible sex between two consenting adult individuals of any gender, nor do I see anything wrong with gay couples getting children, etc) as "heterodox", while a surprising number of even "conservative" Catholics agree if no one's listening. It's impossible to create a "Catholic" political system when there's not even full agreement over what Catholicism is, other than the most central tenets. And even then, it would infringe on the rights of those who are not Catholic - and that would be contrary to Catholicism itself due to the supremacy of the conscience. That's the reason why few Catholic countries originally had "moral laws", while most Protestant countries did.

So to sum up, religion and political ideology are two different categories, and to mix them is not just dangerous, but contrary to (most) religion. For that reason, the notion of "liberal Christianity" or "conservative Christianity" is essentially oxymoronic; but sadly, people keep mixing political ideology and religion nonetheless.
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cheryl reeves

Too properly understand the bible is to understand Israel and Judah, the people and culture for the bible has to do with this family.did you know John 3:16 was edited by the Catholic church. The orginal says for yah so loved Israel he sent his only son, so through him all Israel will be saved. I'm a bible teacher and through help from some messianic Jewish friends of mine I have a understanding of the bible that has made me a enemy of Roman Christianity.
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Rina

Quote from: cheryl reeves on December 05, 2015, 04:40:00 AM
Too properly understand the bible is to understand Israel and Judah, the people and culture for the bible has to do with this family.did you know John 3:16 was edited by the Catholic church. The orginal says for yah so loved Israel he sent his only son, so through him all Israel will be saved. I'm a bible teacher and through help from some messianic Jewish friends of mine I have a understanding of the bible that has made me a enemy of Roman Christianity.

I prefer not being the enemy of any church, religion or world view.

Also, the many accusations against the Catholic Church against editing the Bible overly simplify history, since the way the Bible turned into what we have today is incredibly complex, and there is no single original text. Theologians, Protestants as well as Catholics, work from assumptions on what is the most probable earliest text, deduced from different fragments and patterns in the differences between these fragments. There are no simple answers to how the Bible originally looked, but there is agreement among researchers that most of the changes are minor (some due to writing mistakes by copiers, others due to the copier thinking their original had to be wrong, etc), and that the texts we do have are largely in accordance with the texts written by the original authors.

For me, this is not a problem, since I do not believe that God dictated the Bible word for word. I believe the authors were inspired by God, into writing the texts for later generations and their contemporaries to know God better. But the texts are still authored by them, not by God directly, and the texts are often visibly colored by their own perspectives and personalities. Christian teaching can not be formed from single verses, but only from the whole Scripture seen in context with the society at the time, and also what we have been handed down by the Apostles - often called Tradition, a word which is largely misunderstood by those with little knowledge of Catholic theology, since it is an interpretative tradition, not something in conflict with or separate from scripture.

All this said, I'm not on this forum to debate whether or not Catholicism or some other religion is the true religion, nor am I in this thread for that purpose - I just wanted to state my understanding of political ideology versus religion. I will admit that after I came out, I have been questioning a lot since it's tiresome to be a trans woman in relation to some conservative camps in Catholicism. But if I ever leave (I hope I will find the strength to stay in the Church, though), it will not be for any form of Protestantism; I deeply respect those who are Protestants, and I admire much of their faith and spirituality, but I simply do not, and will never, believe in the central tenets of Protestantism (sola scriptura, sola fide, etc), since they are both contradicted by Scripture itself, and the first of them can't be defended without circular reasoning. This is why I converted to Catholicism now more than a decade ago, and going back is not an option for me - even to LGBT friendly churches. I simply do not feel at home in Protestant congregations, and no degree of acceptance will change that. The alternative would be to declare myself agnostic - which I in many ways already am, since I apply methodical doubt to Catholicism even though I for different reasons choose to believe it is right.

So I'll let this post be my last on this specific issue - it's just not why I'm in this thread.
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Deborah

In America today liberal and conservative Christianity refers to their political views which usually have nothing to do with Christianity at all.  It also isn't the original meaning of liberal Christianity.  Originally, beginning in the late 18th century it referred to a movement begun by German theologians that redefined Jesus' place in the cosmos and his relation to God.  Conservative Christianity defined Jesus as God the Son, one substance with God the Father.  Substance in this case having a very specific meaning from Platonic philosophy.  Liberal Christianity began to define him in a number of other ways that in effect made nonsense of the traditional understanding of the Trinity.


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Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
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Rina

Quote from: Deborah on December 05, 2015, 06:04:06 AM
In America today liberal and conservative Christianity refers to their political views which usually have nothing to do with Christianity at all.  It also isn't the original meaning of liberal Christianity.  Originally, beginning in the late 18th century it referred to a movement begun by German theologians that redefined Jesus' place in the cosmos and his relation to God.  Conservative Christianity defined Jesus as God the Son, one substance with God the Father.  Substance in this case having a very specific meaning from Platonic philosophy.  Liberal Christianity began to define him in a number of other ways that in effect made nonsense of the traditional understanding of the Trinity.


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Yep, this is true. And in theological circles, "liberal theology" is still used in the same way, to refer to the movement you mentioned. In common language though, even "liberal theology" will be used in the same sense that most people use "liberal Christian"; words change their meaning over time, but the process is slower in academia.

The interesting thing is that many of the methods liberal theologians used, perhaps especially historical-critical interpretation of the Bible (which existed before liberal theology though, but was less used), have now become commonplace, even dominant, while most of their dogmatic ideas have faded from mainstream Christianity; most Christian theologians still believe in the Trinity, a literal resurrection, etc as central to the Christian faith. In my opinion a good example of adopting what is good while discarding what is not from new movements, but of course others may disagree - both those who oppose historical criticism, and those who believe liberal theologians were/are right in their Christology.
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Lady Smith

I left the Catholic Church because I was tired of being shunned by priests and treated like I was something less.  Despite that I think I will always be a Franciscan at heart.  The doctrine of the free spirit very much resonates with me as does the discipline of Christian meditation.
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Lyndsey

Quote from: redhot1 on June 09, 2015, 11:23:52 PM
Growing up, while my parents did not explicitly shelter us from the world, they do tend to lean right-wing on lots of issues. Is it true that there are only conservative and liberal  Christians?

I might as well be a liberal Christian now, I used to view things more right-wing, but decided to discard or reject certain traditional ideas like anti-trans views and revelations (my most hated theological concept). What ideas does liberal Christianity accept or reject?

Those who call themselves liberal Christians say they have more compassion, but aren't more conservative Christians just as compassionate too? It's confusing.

My parents do respect my different views, even if they aren't as right-wing as theirs.

Hi
I'm not sure about the two sides but i have to say that I'm Independent and there are many of us out here that are. Your own point of view is your own and it dose not mean that if you are Liberal or conservative you have to agree with ether one. basically I'm Independent and very much so I don't chose sides like that

Lyndsey
Lyndsey Marie Burke- Started my journey February 2011 Full time on May 5th 2014 HRT June 6th 2014 Name change and on all records and court documents June 20th 2014 SCS October 20th 2015 with Doctor Marci Bowers in Burlingame California I'm a very Happy women and finally living what I should have been living my whole life. Expect the unexpected. I feel Blessed. Love, Live, Be Happy. Be safe.
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RobynD

#13
My home church at the present is on the liberal side of the conservative ones (i know it confuses me too ) but i also attend services at Catholic and Episcopal (Anglican) church. I go to the former because of mainly family consensus, but i also get the family to attend the others.

I agree that the theological differences between conservative and liberal are the basis for the comparison. Those however have also generally (and it is a big generalization) applied to political matters. Churches that support more government social programs, LGTBQ rights, and marriage quality, to name a few things, are often those with liberal theology. An example of that theology as being literal bible interpretation or not?. Also this includes the theology of whether the bible is inerrant or how you believe it was authored.

Which makes sense. Every faith picks and chooses. 100% of the denominations, and within those the individual applies her own experience and viewpoints.


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purplewuggybird

I believe that liberal Christians embrace more of the values of the bible and Christians while conservative Christians are more, but not entirely focused, on the bible and spreading the message of the bible. Just my opinion


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Just trying to share the love <3!
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RobynD

Quote from: purplewuggybird on December 24, 2015, 12:47:03 PM
I believe that liberal Christians embrace more of the values of the bible and Christians while conservative Christians are more, but not entirely focused, on the bible and spreading the message of the bible. Just my opinion


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Some of our ilk term the latter to be bible idolatry and cultural bias.


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