On passing.

[asiangurliee]

Do you ever get the feeling that you don't pass because someone is looking at you? Possibly a female, they seem to analyze people a lot.

As someone who is self conscious and suffers from some low self esteem, it is not so much that I don't pass, it is that my behavior suggests that there is something wrong with me and that make people question.


This is the whole issue with passing, if you are not confident, if you don't really feel comfortable , then you don't pass. Even if you do pass, you think that you don't pass. I think this is a huge problem for me, because I don't know what people are thinking, it becomes a downward spiral when I think I don't pass, and then that makes me suffer even a larger drop in self esteem and makes me even more self conscious.

I really wish I don't give a ->-bleeped-<-. Anyways, that's my random rant of the day.

Ultimately, my point is, I have to ask myself, who and what am I living for?

Am I living for my own happiness , am I living to be who I am, and passing becomes less relevant because it is for other people and we can never  rely on other people's acceptance for our own mental health being.

So in the end, I like to say I am working toward in not giving a ->-bleeped-<- about passing.   

But on a deeper level, I guess I don't just want to pass, I want to be attractive and this is a body image problem a lot of women have, to some extent,  I am sure.     

[seldom]

I try not to think about the entire issue much anymore and just live my life.  Maybe its the knowledge I pass okay, and I am not to attached to the idea of being attractive.  I am bookish researcher, why attract more attention then need be.

Also the fact if I get hung up on the whole issue it would begin to have a negative effect on me personally.

[Kate]

I've shared those same, exact concerns.

It's a terrible conflict: on the one hand, I want say I'm enlightened enough to just not care what people see or think, and to realize I am who I am regardless, and just get on with life.

On the other hand... passing not only makes things easier, but also gives me the proper context whenever I interact with people. To be totally honest, although I believe the enlightened view is a wonderfully noble sentiment, I'll admit much of my motivation was in preparing myself for a life of rarely passing, trying to find SOME way to deal with it all.

One thing I WILL say... I posted a ways back that *experience* didn't seem to be helping me. But I was wrong. It took longer than I thought, but simply getting OUT THERE into more and more varied situations... and having nothing happen... gained me the confidence to not care so much anymore. But it took time.

And hey, back in the old days I DID out myself to many, many people who I was probably passing with. But back then, I figured there was no WAY I passed, and figured I owed them a quick explanation (yea, I know, I've learned). But NO ONE ever reacted badly to it. I got hugged, congratulated, blessed (never forget that one, lol)... so being read now and then may not be a nightmare anyway.

~Kate~

[asiangurliee]

And hey, back in the old days I DID out myself to many, many people who I was probably passing with. But back then, I figured there was no WAY I passed, and figured I owed them a quick explanation (yea, I know, I've learned). But NO ONE ever reacted badly to it. I got hugged, congratulated, blessed (never forget that one, lol)... so being read now and then may not be a nightmare anyway.

~Kate~

The problem is, I don't think anyone deserves explanation unless they are my close friends. I don't owe anyone any explanation and I am not responsible for making sure that people know exactly who I am just so I or them can feel better. The way I see it is , if you want to know anything personal about me, you have to earn it.

[Kate]

The problem is, I don't think anyone deserves explanation unless they are my close friends. I don't owe anyone any explanation and I am not responsible for making sure that people know exactly who I am just so I or them can feel better. The way I see it is , if you want to know anything personal about me, you have to earn it.

Of course, you're absolutely right.

I went through that "explanation" phase a long time ago, back when I was still really getting a handle on all this. It wasn't so much that I launched into an essay about GID, but I'd identify myself using my male name simply because I figured there was no way I was passing, and hadn't yet learned the "I'm Kate regardless" lesson.

I've learned a lot since then

~Kate~

[melissa90299]

Worrying about how each human being on earth perceives us is such a wasteful and harmful exercise, it gets tiresome seeing so much space in our minds devoted to it. My philosophy is to try to please myself and let the chips fall where they may. Even I cannot control my judgements of others. I know a transwoman who visually is damn near perfect, her voice is good too but, to me, she clocks gay male. She just has that vibe. Others probably think that she presents well and "passes." But I don't. But I don't let on as to how I feel and it doesn't really matter what I think. One can't please everybody.

[seldom]

Frumpy girls shall rule the earth.

I love this quote.
I know this may sound odd, but it really depends on how you are trying to pass.  If you are like me and are the type that wears cardigans, and fairly simple cloths of a librarian or researcher, passing just seems less of a concern.  I wish I could pin down a percentage, but I would say its over 90% with me personally (but this is a guess based on peoples reactions).  The truth is I don't know personally, and I will never know.  I'd rather just be the frumpy researcher that I am than worrying about how people perceive me all the time.  I know I am not pretty, but that is not what I am after anyway.  I just want to be myself.

Plus I had my share of unwanted attention and sexual harassment, that I would rather be considered mousy then get any more of it.

[Jolene4ever]

I've found that the more I learn the mannerisms like hand gestures, walking has really helped me gain confidence and with the voice coming along this has also aided me. It's a journey thru the looking glass and I am finding a new person, a caring compassionate woman. When I look in a mirror or window, I see a woman, not a man amd this is the image I would like others to see too.Jolene

[Berliegh]

Men are usually far more observant than women but it's usually down to the individial. My voice is really good and I haven't had to change it and it helps with emmediate gender recognition.

[melissa90299]

Men are usually far more observant than women but it's usually down to the individial. My voice is really good and I haven't had to change it and it helps with emmediate gender recognition.

Men are far more observant than woman? I am quite sure that the reverse is true. I  am guessing that you think this as men certainly are going to notice a woman and scrutinize her but that doesn't make them more observant. Women are better at masking their reactions than men.

[asiangurliee]

Men are usually far more observant than women .

oh , actually just the opposite. Women are more observant and just smarter!  >

[Hypatia]

Do you ever get the feeling that you don't pass because someone is looking at you? Possibly a female, they seem to analyze people a lot.

Whenever I catch someone doing that, I just look right at her, relax, and give her a nice smile until she smiles back. It's a girl thing.

[Keira]

Men are more vocal (read "->-bleeped-<-") if they read you, they have to say it out loud so you can hear, even point it out to all around, like they scored a big victory for mankind, while a women will be civil and unless you are so unpassable to be jarring for everyone around, will attempt to treat you as any other women (not sure your actually getting the same thing, but it will be as close as they can make it).

As for being read, if you act natural, smile, don't look affected, women and men will read you equally. If you dress blandly and are not too good looking (unpassable can come out as simply ugly to the person's who's not really scrutinizing) there is less of a chance that either men or women will care what gender you are.

Doing a 20+ minutes ride on a not too packed bus and siting near the entrance is probably the toughest "passing" test there is. If you can make then, you can make it anywhere.

[SusanK]

...Ultimately, my point is, I have to ask myself, who and what am I living for? Am I living for my own happiness , am I living to be who I am, and passing becomes less relevant because it is for other people and we can never  rely on other people's acceptance for our own mental health being.  So in the end, I like to say I am working toward in not giving a ->-bleeped-<- about passing. But on a deeper level, I guess I don't just want to pass, I want to be attractive and this is a body image problem a lot of women have, to some extent,  I am sure.     

While that's a good thing, controlling and living one's own life, everyone still has to get by in the world. To those that don't pass or won't pass without cosmetic (facial) help, it's harder to feel accepted. And while some have the confidence, or audacity?, to ignore the obvious, it effects us all. In some ways, that's what passing is about, not just you but your representation of transpeople.

For example, the other day going through life I saw this rather tall, large (in the male sense), well dressed woman shopping. When she turned around it was obvious she was either a CD or transwoman who needed help. With all the makeup and a wig, she was a male and a man - and sorry, not a masculine woman but a man. It wasn't that I wondered about her but about what others thought, and not just her but others they think of in the future.

I'm reminded by what one famous (post-op) transwoman said once when asked why she suggested facial surgery ahead of SRS if it's appropriate or necessary. She said shat's between your legs isn't what people initially see and hear, it's your face and then your voice. The rest of you, clothes, mannerisms, behavior, etc., follows the distant third. She asked why rush to SRS if you're still seen as a man no matter how much you are legally female?

And you wonder why some worry to much and work so hard at passing? It's not when we're with others, but what's left in their minds or voices when we leave that worries some. Ok, me too.

--Susan--

[buttercup]

Passing is important if you want to have any kind of life at all.  Unless you live out in the sticks, are self-employed, have your own circle of friends, then passing wouldn't be that much of an issue.  But alas, most of us need to be in the city to earn a living and to get by in general.
People staring and interfering in your life is hard to take and I've experienced it first hand.  I am going to have ffs, as I want to live a life free from harassment.  I am not that strong to put up with being considered different and I certainly do not think I owe anyone explanations either.  I treasure my freedom too much and being talked about etc. does interfere with that.   

[melissa90299]

...Ultimately, my point is, I have to ask myself, who and what am I living for? Am I living for my own happiness , am I living to be who I am, and passing becomes less relevant because it is for other people and we can never  rely on other people's acceptance for our own mental health being.  So in the end, I like to say I am working toward in not giving a ->-bleeped-<- about passing. But on a deeper level, I guess I don't just want to pass, I want to be attractive and this is a body image problem a lot of women have, to some extent,  I am sure.     

While that's a good thing, controlling and living one's own life, everyone still has to get by in the world. To those that don't pass or won't pass without cosmetic (facial) help, it's harder to feel accepted. And while some have the confidence, or audacity?, to ignore the obvious, it effects us all. In some ways, that's what passing is about, not just you but your representation of transpeople.

For example, the other day going through life I saw this rather tall, large (in the male sense), well dressed woman shopping. When she turned around it was obvious she was either a CD or transwoman who needed help. With all the makeup and a wig, she was a male and a man - and sorry, not a masculine woman but a man. It wasn't that I wondered about her but about what others thought, and not just her but others they think of in the future.

I'm reminded by what one famous (post-op) transwoman said once when asked why she suggested facial surgery ahead of SRS if it's appropriate or necessary. She said shat's between your legs isn't what people initially see and hear, it's your face and then your voice. The rest of you, clothes, mannerisms, behavior, etc., follows the distant third. She asked why rush to SRS if you're still seen as a man no matter how much you are legally female?

And you wonder why some worry to much and work so hard at passing? It's not when we're with others, but what's left in their minds or voices when we leave that worries some. Ok, me too.

--Susan--

I agree with you on the FFS before SRS if one needs it but I think you are being a bit judgmental and harsh on the woman at the mall. Most of us were clocked as men in dresses when we first went out. I got blasted for being honest about feeling uncomfortable about seeing an "unpassable" transwoman or CD but the nexus for my angst was the fear that others at one time )or even now might have thought about me that way . After much self-examination and mindfulness training, I have gotten past that.

I saw the same very unpassable woman that the original thread was about and when I walked past, I smiled at her.

[Ember Lewis]

Sometimes the stares are towards what your wearing or towards your hair or shoes. I do it all the time to other women, stare at what they are wearing so I can learn things. If you think you pass you pass, it's all about confidence.

[Kate]

Am I living for my own happiness , am I living to be who I am, and passing becomes less relevant because it is for other people and we can never  rely on other people's acceptance for our own mental health being.   

The thing is, throughout my transition I've encountered nothing but acceptance from everyone who found out my history, one way or another.

But acceptance isn't enough. Or at least *I* haven't been content with only acceptance so far.

I've posted elsewhere that perhaps my identity went beyond gender, and perhaps simply being "Kate" to everyone would be enough, regardless of whether I passed or not. But I have to admit... being seen and treated as a female, without that "asterisk" after my gender as a friend once put it... is where I seem to need to be. It's not just about avoiding stares and scorn - it's about being seen and treated for who I am.

And who I am is a woman. Not a woman*, not a transwoman, and not a transsexual. A woman.

I've had many wonderful experiences of people you'd never expect to be tolerant hugging and congratulating me, and getting every pronoun and name right. But nothing compares to having someone simply seeing me as an ordinary female. Whether they love or hate me, see me as ugly or cute, they see ME finally. Not someone to be accepted, not someone to be congratulated, but just... ME. Just A Girl. No one special.

That's where I need to be.

~Kate~

[Wing Walker]

And who I am is a woman. Not a woman*, not a transwoman, and not a transsexual. A woman.

I've had many wonderful experiences of people you'd never expect to be tolerant hugging and congratulating me, and getting every pronoun and name right. But nothing compares to having someone simply seeing me as an ordinary female. Whether they love or hate me, see me as ugly or cute, they see ME finally. Not someone to be accepted, not someone to be congratulated, but just... ME. Just A Girl. No one special.

That's where I need to be.

You're right on the money, Kate.  That's where we all need to be.

Women use non-verbal communication quite well.  A smile can be loaded with goodwill and kinship between women or it can be loaded with animosity and a prelude to "going to claws" or other weapons.  I've used both proficiently.

In 2002 I did my physical transformation in preparation for my first day out, dressed as a woman, hiding under Cover Girl makeup.

I describe myself as "rough as a cob," and I was.  I had the best acrylic wig that I could afford, shorts and a top, black sandals, and a teensy black purse that couldn't hold as much as a tampon, on a spaghetti strap.  I had shaved my legs and I was good to go.  I had no voice training.

I stood out in a crowd of blind people!  I had been on HRT for less than a month but I went out and walked down the main street in town like I was Good Queen Bess.  I spoke with my best voice I could and I was in no way embarrassed.

I passed that day and that's all that counted to me.  I have never looked back.

I am a pretty fair-sized woman, six feet tall, 46C bra, waist under construction, with good padding on my hips and bum and celulite on my thighs and upper legs above the knee.  I am training my own voice by feeling the changes in where it resonates as I push it higher. 

I don't give two hoots and a holler what anyone else thinks of me.  In my own eyes, I pass.  All of my identification, except for my passport, show that I am female.

I am a woman and anyone who has a problem with that can bring it to my attention so I can dismiss them and their complaint vis-a-vis.

I hope that this is of help to you.  The less you care about what others think, the more you will have time to think of how good you truly have done.

Thanks again for sharing, Kate.

Wing Walker
Flyin' High on Life as a Woman

P.S.  Women notice things that men have no cognizance of.  When I see another woman I notice her hair, makeup, clothes, and shoes.  I keep the details I like in my mind's eye and try them on myself.  A ravishing beauty I ain't but I'm just fine for me. 

[danielle_l]

Doing a 20+ minutes ride on a not too packed bus and siting near the entrance is probably the toughest "passing" test there is. If you can make then, you can make it anywhere.

i dont agree with you keira, for me, thats not even the beggining of passing. You can walk around the street, or get on a bus and pass no problem, nobody looks at you or pays you any attention. Passing isn't about how not to be noticed, its not about posting pictures on an internet forum and its not about telling yourself how girly you are, which i think as transwomen we have a habit of falling into...

passing is about interacting, conversing and then, being accepted completely as a woman by random people in REAL LIFE without question..

and not only that, but then repeating that, over and over again until there can never be any doubt at all in the person your talking to's mind that you are a female.

i think alot of trans people in general think they pass, because nobody pays them any attention. I thought that for along time. Everyone in the street calls me a woman, EVERYONE. In fact, it means nothing at all..

for example, a real test of passing..

try standing up teaching a two hour class in front of 25 adults. Then do it again, 5 times a week for the next 30 weeks..

They are all staring directly at you, talking to each other about you.. there is nothing to hide behind, no way of hiding your voice..  Its you and them, and they will either see a man, or a woman.

then you'll know if you pass or not, no questions asked, there is no doubt at all.

once you do something like that and realise exactly where you stand, you can begin to learn how to REALLY pass as a woman. Any false illusions you had about yourself are all gone forever. And that is a great thing. Thats when the fear goes..

also, I completely agree with kim (berleigh), my experience invariably tells me that men are the ones who i find most difficult to convince. I rarely have problems passing with women at all. White anglo saxon men below 60. They are the most observant group in my experience, although, obviously, their observations, are absolutely wrong.

they think they see a man, but they are wrong. Its so important to know that..

its the ones who see a women who are right, after all, we are women, aren't we?

the people who call you man, crossdresser or freak, or whatever they make up, are the ones who are mistaken. Its so important for us all to understand that!

The joke, is actually, on them, but to get to the stage where you have that confidence, i think in general, we have to drop the act, and we have to face reality once and for all..